Chloe Benjamin, Under Story

Brett sits down with Chloe Benjamin to discuss Under Story. They talk mushrooms and multiverses, the inspiration, and the sheer construction of the novel, which character was inspired by someone in her life, the natural world, and then we dive into spoiler territory which I promise is clearly announced before we launch in. I had to, there's too much to unpack!

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https://www.chloebenjaminbooks.com/

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https://www.instagram.com/chloekbenjamin/

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Transcript

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Brett Benner 0:01

Hey everybody, it's Bret Benner. Welcome to another episode of Behind the Stack. The author that I am talking with today is gonna be familiar to so many of you because her previous books have been such massive hits, but I have to tell you, I think it's her best. Not only that, but when I finished this book yesterday after racing to get to the end, my mind was so blown in so many parts that as I say to her in the interview, I can't wait for more people to read this and talk about it because there's no way to really talk about it without giving away spoilers. So I'm gonna preface this before I even introduce the book and say, for those of you who have read the book, you can listen to the end. For those of you who haven't, I clearly delineate at one point in this conversation that we're about to enter spoiler territory, frankly because I had to have questions answered that I thought I might never get a chance to ask her again. So bear that in mind when you listen to the episode. She is Chloe Benjamin, and the book is Understory. A little bit about Chloe. She's the author of The Immortalists, which was a New York Times bestseller, and The Anatomy of Dreams, a Barnes Noble Discover Great New Writers selection, Library Reads Favorite, and number one Indie Next Pick. The Immortalists was named a best book of 2018 by NPR, The Washington Post, Entertainment Weekly, and others. The Anatomy of Dreams received the Edna Ferber Fiction Book Award and was long-listed for the 2014 Center for Fiction First Novel Prize. Originally from San Francisco, Chloe is a graduate of Vassar College and an MFA in fiction at the University of Wisconsin. Her work has been translated into over 30 languages. She lives with her husband in the San Francisco Bay Area. So I hope you enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack hey everybody, welcome back. I am really thrilled to be sitting down today with Chloé Benjamin for her latest book, which is, to say that it's mind-bending and mind-blowing is, is probably the understatement of the year. The book is Understory. Oh my gosh, it's so beautiful and so moving, and, uh, we have a lot to unpack.

Chloe Benjamin 2:23

Thank you so much, Brett. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. And

Brett Benner 2:28

wait, Chloé, you're gonna have to help me out here because I'm gonna s- try to steer around spoilers, because I don't wanna get into any of that.

Chloe Benjamin 2:36

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner 2:36

And yet I feel like there is gonna be a point where I'm gonna have to get into spoiler territory, and I'm going to announce it for people who haven't read the book yet.

Chloe Benjamin 2:45

Yeah.

Brett Benner 2:45

Because first of all, there's just things I want to talk about and want answered, and I'm not gonna have the chance to do it again. Yeah. And-

Chloe Benjamin 2:52

I would love that. I haven't been able to have a spoilery conversation-

Brett Benner 2:56

Okay

Chloe Benjamin 2:56

yet.

Brett Benner 2:57

Okay. Yeah. So, so just for our listeners and for our viewers, this whole first part, we really are gonna steer around it. But then unfortunately, then the last part is gonna be for people who have already read the book or will have read the book by the time they see this or listen to it. Okay. Perfect. Beautiful. So I have to tell you, one of my greatest joys of doing this podcast, besides the obvious, which is I get to sit down with so many amazing authors and their work, is something like this which truly, like, wrecked my brain through a lot of it. I would never get the chance to, sit with someone and ask them all of the questions regarding what were you thinking, where were you at, what is the genesis? And so I feel so fortunate to be able to do that with you today because this is that book, and it is that book- Hmm that makes you not only ask so many questions of yourself and of these characters, but also just, for me, the, the sheer mechanics of it and what-

Chloe Benjamin 3:52

Hmm

Brett Benner 3:52

you put into it to get to where we are today. It took you seven years to write this, right?

Chloe Benjamin 3:58

Yeah, it was about, um... It's, it's about seven years from idea to publication, so it was five years for the first draft, and then for the past two years or so, it's been editing and then getting ready for publication. And everything that you said is how I feel about being able to talk with people who have read it because I do keep work very close to my chest while I'm working on it. Like, I didn't share the concept, shared with very few readers during the writing process. So it's so exciting now that people like you have read it, and, like, I can pick your brain too. So I'm just thrilled to be able to talk about it with somebody who's as engaged as you are as a reader. Oh,

Brett Benner 4:36

my God. Well, so this is my... Like, i- i- was your husband, did he even know anything? I mean, could

Chloe Benjamin 4:40

you sit down- Yeah, so he did. Okay. Yes. Yeah, so he, he knew. He's actually a phenomenal editor. But we instituted some boundaries when I was working on this book, which were that he wasn't gonna read any material until I had half of the book. Okay. So we- he definitely did a lot of conversation and brainstorming with me. Like, there were just dark nights of the soul when we would be, like, just scraping the, like, the barrel of our brains trying to figure something out. but he didn't read anything until I was over two years into the project. That's when I had the first half. And then I had to wait another two and a half years to give him, you know, the full book. But the other people who were kind of in the inside were my editor read at about halfway, and then my agent was, was reading throughout, and a couple of friends, like one or two friends. So I really keep it pretty small in this- When I'm working on it, which was really torturous for this because it's like- Oh

Brett Benner 5:34

my God

Chloe Benjamin 5:35

it's, there's like so much... Oh, and I have to give a shout-out to my research assistant. My research assistant, Dr. Alyssa Adams, is an astrobiologist. They are phenomenal, and we're tr- It was the first time I ever had a research assistant while working on a book. So to have somebody to whom I could pose questions like, "I want to make this happen fictionally. What's a justification that you can give me?" It was incredible. So, I mean, it still took this long, but I was so lucky to have research help.

Brett Benner 6:03

My God. I can imagine. First of all, I picture some room in your house just covered with whiteboards and strings and

Chloe Benjamin 6:12

pieces of paper. Yeah. Like an investigation into- That's my brain. That's the inside- Yeah of my brain. Yes. I

Brett Benner 6:15

just pictured, like, this almost like a, a murder investigation- Yeah. and all the suspects and everything connected because- Yeah yeah, it's really like you talk, like, again, saying in the beginning about the mechanics and how something is put together and the way you make it tie together, and by the way, believably too, right? Mm. And, and, and your use of f- factual things, and I, you know, I couldn't even come out of this and say, "Well, that was, you know, not real- Yeah or that's not true," is like, it's like a magic act to me. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Um, truly. Yeah, and also, the other thing that blew me away about this is reading that you are not, or were not, like, a science person.

Chloe Benjamin 6:56

No. I mean, not in terms of, like, being a science person in school. Yeah. I was never great at science. Um, I, you know, I, I'm not at all a math person, and so the kind of like harder elements of, like, hard science elements are things that just don't necessarily make sense to my brain. But I love science from a storytelling perspective and kind of from a philosophical perspective, because it's the way that we can try to understand the world. And I'm fascinated by existential mysteries, things like what happens after we die, and is there life elsewhere in the universe, and why does time only move in one direction? And science is one of the tools that we have to investigate those things. So it's very strange to me and a bit mysterious that, you know, I've, in each of my novels now, I've written about scientists. Hmm. And at this point, I feel like I have some amateur- Right. science background.

Brett Benner 7:55

Right.

Chloe Benjamin 7:55

Um, but, uh, but it's really, like, interest-based, um, not sort of something that I'm naturally, I think, or, or was previously strong in.

Brett Benner 8:06

Well, and what it does is, and this is another reason, like, why I personally love books and love books that engage, because something like this, I was immediately, I was looking up so much. Like Silent Springs, for example- Mm is referenced by Rachel Carson- Mm in the book, which I was like, "This has to be a real thing." And so I immediately- Yeah looked it up. I put it in my PangoBooks cart, 'cause I was like, "Well, I have to read this book."

Chloe Benjamin 8:29

Oh, cool.

Brett Benner 8:29

So it's that kind of extension-

Chloe Benjamin 8:31

Yeah

Brett Benner 8:32

that I find is so fascinating, and just, like, literally- Yeah it sounds so obvious to say, but learning about these things through the written word. But it truly is- Yeah that, because you're so invested in what's happening, which is great.

Chloe Benjamin 8:45

I'm so happy to hear that, and I, I really hope that the book, uh, if, if it in fa- if it impacts other people to read it the way that it impacted me to write it, I will be so happy because the research that I did for this novel, especially around the non-human, you know, non-human intelligence or sentience, whatever words we want to use, was so impactful to me. I just really look at other beings differently. Um, yeah, it really, it's exciting to me to hear. And I, I don't know, I've been thinking about this as I've been asked about the kind of cross-hatching of real science and science fiction in this book. It really mattered to me while writing that there was a lot of verisimilitude, that I was using real things- Mm and then jumping off of them to create something imaginary, and I don't even know why that felt like such a priority for me. I think it felt like a way to make it convincing, and, and maybe, maybe harder for a reader to discard and say, like, "Well, this isn't really about our world." Like, maybe I feel it makes the book more accountable to the real world or the, or the reader more engaged with the real world while reading. I loved kind of finding... It- it's sort of like a magpie instinct. There's, like, a nest of, like- real things and fictional things, and they're all... I can tell you, like, if there, if there was anything you're like, "Is this real?" Like, I can break everything down, but maybe that's for the spoiler part of the- Right, right episode.

Brett Benner 10:09

Okay, so for our listeners and our viewers, do you have a, an elevator pitch for the book? Kind

Chloe Benjamin 10:13

of jumped right in.

Brett Benner 10:14

Yes.

Chloe Benjamin 10:15

Yes. So my elevator pitch, and, you know, this is a very hard book to discuss without spoilers, but it's essentially that we have two, uh, protagonists, a, a divorced couple, Laurel and Eli, both scientists, who are unwillingly reunited at a research base in Antarctica, where a visual disturbance known as the Ark is behaving very strangely. And I think that the jacket copy alludes to the fact that this is a novel that is ultimately about multiple universes. So I'll say those, those two things.

Brett Benner 10:45

So yes, and the book covers so many things betwe- between, like, mycology and physics and the, this, like, the space-time continuum. I know that the seed of this, can you tell our viewers and our listeners, w- I know the story, but, like, what the story is and how this, what prompted for you? But then beyond that, what part of this kind of, uh, for lack of a better word, science aspect of it did you start to focus on before other threads started to come in?

Chloe Benjamin 11:12

Sure. So the initial spark for the novel came to me in early 2020. Um, there was an experiment in Antarctica at the US research base called McMurdo that found an elementary particle called neutrinos were behaving very strangely. And one very speculative idea to explain how they were behaving was that perhaps they were evidence of a parallel universe that moved backward in time. This was soon disproven as an explanation for the particular phenomenon in the study, but I thought it was fascinating, and so I kind of ran with it. And so it's a little bit complicated to explain because there was the experiment that took place in Antarctica by, by a group called ANITA, A-N-I-T-A. It's an acronym. They are in the book, I mean, a fictionalized version. And then there was a separate trio of scientists who hypostulated this idea of a... Or hypostulated is not a word. Who hypothesized- Hypothesized? And/or postulated.

Brett Benner 12:12

But I totally went with it. I'm like, she knows science. Yeah. That could be a word I haven't heard yet.

Chloe Benjamin 12:16

Any scientist listening to this is like, "Yeah, we know she's, she, this woman is not- Right one of us." Right. Anyway, they hypothesized this idea of a CPT symmetric universe, which is, uh, you know, that the Our universe is actually two universes, one that has inverted properties. And then a third scientist linked these two, two things, the ANITA results and the CPT symmetric universe theory. So I kind of ran with, with this and fictionalized it heavily to suit my purposes, but I did start by interviewing one of the physicists who came up with the idea of the CPT symmetric universe. His name is Latham Boyle, and he was really kind to do some early brainstorming with me, and then I sort of went off the deep end. But the same, at the same time, I knew that I wanted to have a really strong interpersonal core, and I was interested in writing about a marriage. The Immortalists, my previous novel, follows four siblings, and each of those siblings has one section of the novel. And so there's four different perspectives, and there's a, there's a love story in at least one of them, but I hadn't really focused on that, exclusively in a book before. So I wanted there to be something really tense in this relationship that, you know, there would be a sense of suspense throughout the book, and what came to me was the idea of a couple that is divorced. And so what is keeping them apart is not anything external, but something internal. It's their own former decision. Um, and, and that was really interesting to me.

Brett Benner 13:45

And then where did the mycology come into it? I mean, the mushrooms, and it's so amazing to me.

Chloe Benjamin 13:51

Well, you know, I think mushrooms have really been in the ether in the past, like, five- Mm 10 years. So I'm sure I was picking up on that. The protagonist, Laurel, is a mycologist, so she researches fungi. And I was trying to think, like, when exactly did that come in? And I, I need to go back and look at my notebooks, but I know that a large part of it was something that I don't know how to talk about without getting into, uh, spoiler territory, but, um, it, but how life begins in- in the other universe Yeah.

Brett Benner 14:20

Yes

Chloe Benjamin 14:20

Let's say, let's say that. Um, that when I knew that I needed that piece, then it made sense for that to be her focus.

Brett Benner 14:29

Interesting. Interesting. Wow. I'm just sitting with it for a second because my, my brain is, again, going through so much of this, and we may be going into spoilers sooner than later because I'm still trying to, like, navigate. Um- Mm-hmm after spending so much time researching for this book and spending time, 'cause a lot of the book, it deals with a lot of different subjects, but one of them is our relationship to the natural world. Has your own outlook on things, and I think you alluded to it when we started-

Chloe Benjamin 14:57

Mm-hmm

Brett Benner 14:58

changed since going through all this? Yes. Also, I, I, and I also, I ask that question because I know that you spent most of your life in an urban setting- Mm-hmm and now you live in Wisconsin, which is a very different thing, and I'm experiencing that now, having lived almost my entire adult life in Los Angeles, and now live-

Chloe Benjamin 15:13

Hmm

Brett Benner 15:14

basically in a forest on an island. Oh,

Chloe Benjamin 15:15

wow.

Brett Benner 15:16

Yeah.

Chloe Benjamin 15:17

And

Brett Benner 15:18

so I'm so curious if that, has that affected you at all?

Chloe Benjamin 15:20

Yes. Well, I'm curious about your experience as well. But yeah, I grew up in San Francisco, and, um, I'm, when I went to grad school for creative writing, I moved to Wisconsin, and I was there for 15 years. My husband and I actually moved back to the Bay Area just a year ago. Um, he's now working at UC Berkeley. But suffice it to say that I have always been a city kid and kind of an indoor cat. You know, I'm a reader. I'm a knitter. I'm a writer. None of these things are, like, outdoorsy pursuits. And, um, so the fact that I wrote this book, like, sometimes I, I almost feel like a fraud or an imposter, but I also think that it's like I came to the natural world with the passion of a convert. Like, as I, as I interacted more and more with- With the non-human, as I studied and researched the subjects for this book, I just had this profound experience of being tenderized. That's the best way I can put it. Like, it- I feel pained to see a worm crushed on the sidewalk now because I know what worms do, um, f- you know, for soil, for plants, for our food systems. I stopped eating meat midway through the research process. I just feel this intense compassion and awe for other beings, and I never expected that. It's, it's, like, more painful to live in the world now, but I think that's so true to, like, the more compassion we have, the, the more painful life can be, and that's maybe one reason why it's, like, much easier to go through the world with a hard shell because then you're not hurting as much if you're not thinking about what other people or, um, beings are experiencing. Um-

Brett Benner 17:10

Empathy sucks.

Chloe Benjamin 17:11

Yeah, right. Don't do it. It's the worst. Um, so yeah, it's, I mean, my... I, I also give credit to my husband for kind of opening my eyes to some of these things. He's a sustainability professional. He work- he's actually the director of sustainability at UC Berkeley. Grew up, you know, off a dirt road in Massachusetts, has always been incredibly connected to his environment, and I've learned a lot from him. So yeah, it's, it... I mean, I don't know where... It's kind of like with the science, you know? I, it, it's sort of a mystery to me how I found my way to certain subjects in the book, but I think what I hope comes through is just the, like, enlightenment that I felt while working on it. And there was like a, you know, I kind of fell in love with, with the world around me while-

Brett Benner 18:01

Mm

Chloe Benjamin 18:01

writing the novel.

Brett Benner 18:01

Yeah, I feel, I feel so much of that too living in this environment. Mm. I also feel, this is a weird thing to say, but almost your insignificance in a way- Mm-hmm in the greater of it all. But I stand here and there's these trees that are so tall. Yeah. And like just-

Chloe Benjamin 18:17

Yeah

Brett Benner 18:17

the, the floral, the fauna, and the life of just the animals. Yeah. And like walking at night and seeing an owl on a telephone wire or seeing, waking up one morning and there's a fawn outside my bedroom door. Yeah. All of this kind of stuff and this, I don't know. And I, I think like you it's, I, I feel the same way, where I've suddenly become so aware of every single thing, and kind of the connectedness of all of it. And I feel like- Yeah part of that for me has been separating out of a place that's so overwhelmingly stimulating all the time.

Chloe Benjamin 18:47

Yeah.

Brett Benner 18:47

The people, and noise, and all of it. It's interesting with the book because it's bringing up these two ideas of kind of science, not necessarily versus spirituality, but-

Chloe Benjamin 18:58

Hmm

Brett Benner 18:59

in, in terms of belief. Yeah. And it made me think a lot about the way that people kind of try to make sense of the world by using one of these two things. Hmm. Whether a belief in a higher power, or a spiritual thing, or relying on science. Do you think you as a, as a person- Favor one more than the other?

Chloe Benjamin 19:18

Mm. I, I'm so glad that came through in this book because that's something that I think about a lot, kind of science and spirituality as being different ways of coping with mystery. I think spirituality sort of holds space for it and lets it be there, and science is more interested in figuring out. And I feel like there's, there's not as much of the spirituality or kind of religious interest in this book as there is in- Right like, The Immortalist, so I'm glad it still came through to you in some way. And I think what is there is a conversation about faith and belief and intuition, and that is kind of an alternate way of knowing that I think in the Western world we don't always know how to understand or fully respect. I don't think I fall to one side or the other. I think I'm, I'm interested in both and what they have to offer. Mm. But yeah, I mean, I, I grew up in a... I- my dad is Jewish and my mom is Episcopalian, and, you know, so I grew up with multiple religions, and they're, they're divorced but grew up with households with different religions and have just been always fascinated by the way that spirituality offers ways of thinking about these things.

Brett Benner 20:26

One of the things I also loved in the book was your whole supporting cast of characters and- Mm the, the diversity of them, and especially in regards to sexuality and gender, I just really appreciated it. Mm. And was that very intentional for you?

Chloe Benjamin 20:39

Mm. Thank you. Well, I grew up with gay parents, so, um, after my, my mom and my dad divorced, my mom, was with her partner Molly for about 17 years. Mm. They're no longer together, but I, I was raised by my mom and Molly, and then my dad and my stepmom Ellen. And, so yeah, having, having representation that is diverse has always been really important to me, and I think the LGBTQ+ community has been really meaningful to me throughout my life because of my mom and Molly, and a lot of our family friends were queer and are kind of aunties to me. Um, uh, so... And also growing up in San Francisco, you know, it's a, it's a diverse, um, a, you know, for the most part accepting place where a lot of different people have gone to find community and refuge. And yeah, I think that was intentional, but also it's just kind of part of my, my life.

Brett Benner 21:34

Yeah. Okay, now I have to tell everybody that at this point I'm going to be dipping into the-

Chloe Benjamin 21:38

Okay

Brett Benner 21:39

potentially spoiler stuff.

Chloe Benjamin 21:40

Put, put it down if you haven't, and then come back after you've-

Brett Benner 21:43

That's right. That's right read the book. Because I have some questions we're gonna get into, and I just can't not ask, and so it's gonna spoil. Okay, so I have to say, one of the things that I really dug, and it must've been so much fun for you in terms of, uh, in an exploratory way, was the kind of inverse world that- Mm-hmm these two end up in. And I kind of loved to see what- versions of not only, not them, not Eli or Laurel necessarily, but, but the other characters. Yeah. And particularly I'm thinking Gloria.

Chloe Benjamin 22:17

Yeah.

Brett Benner 22:17

Because I loved her and I, I, I loved this poignant moment how you bookend it so beautifully where, you know, she starts as Laurel's professor and then Laurel becomes her teacher in the other side. Mm-hmm. And I thought that was so beautiful. But not only that, of just watching Laurel get to witness Olivia become young. And I thought that was... Like, she, she describes her at one point, her, her hair when she hasn't seen her for a while- Mm and how it's all the colors all coming back to it, and that she could see the woman that she actually was in her, like, vibrant part of her life.

Chloe Benjamin 22:58

Mm.

Brett Benner 22:58

I just thought that was so, so incredibly beautiful and so moving. But I have to think, it must have been so fun for you to kind of parse things out, but not only just characters, but also just cultural references, historical references- Mm all these little things. Uh-huh. Like, I kept thinking if you were just brainstorming ideas, down to tech, right? Like

Chloe Benjamin 23:20

a computer- Yeah, like the iCane the iPhone. I feel really proud of the iCane.

Brett Benner 23:23

Yes,

Chloe Benjamin 23:23

yes. So, you know, if we're in the spoilery part of the, of the episode that, you know, in the anti-universe, people are born in old age, and then they age down to youth. So essentially when they're in their, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, depending on when somebody is born, they're effectively teenage... They've had a teenage number of years on earth. Uh, so Apple comes out with these- devices like the iCane that, you know, come in, like, these different, like, rose gold and stuff like that. That was really fun. Yes, the color. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, Gloria is just very close to my heart. I don't know if you, um, if you've seen the deck that my publisher has sent out to some media. No. But Glor-... Oh, good. Well, I mean, good because I can tell you that Gloria is very much based on my grandmother. Oh, wow. Um, so my, my grandma was just a magical being. Not at all outdoorsy, so it was funny kind of putting her into this character, but incredibly curious, compassionate, eccentric. She had a blackbird hat. So she's on my desk. I'll show you. This is my grandmother. Um- Oh my God, there's the hat and this blackbird hat with the necklace wound up going- Yes. in the book. Um, and, and my... And Grandma passed about a year before I started the book, and I was devastated. And also I was dealing with a lot of chronic pain at that time that prevented me from crying, because crying was a, was a major migraine trigger. And so I think that writing her into this book was a way that I coped, and it was sort of a way to try to save her and introduce her to other people, selfishly. And so I'm thrilled whenever anybody, you know, likes Gloria. And then the inverse, Gloria 2, it's really funny because sometimes I, I don't understand the inspiration until I get through a book. And so my, my youngest... I am the oldest of my cousins, and I was very close to my grandmother. And my youngest cousin, whose name is India, also very close to our grandmother. After I finished the book, I was like, "I think India is so much the inspiration for Gloria too," because she's much younger than me. She's, like- Mm in her early 20s. And so th- that sense of kind of sisterhood and, like, how she, sh- you know, she's kind of an upstart. She's- Yeah like super smart, kind of- challenges Laurel, but also just, like, an absolute delight. Um, I, I gave the book to India to read, and I was like, "I have to admit, I think that, like, there's some of you in there." And then the upstart she is, she flipped to the end to try to find Gloria 2. She was like, "You said I'm Gloria 2." I was like, "What are you doing? Start at the beginning." Um, so so that, you know, that was really fun to write. And yeah, all the tech was... I mean, the tech was largely a blast. There were things about the world building that were just so difficult to figure out. But- Oh, my God you know, the tech was really fun. Yeah, basically, in this backwards univer- I don't know why I'm explaining this 'cause I guess hopefully anybody who's listening to this has already read- Has read it, knows it, yeah this part of the book. Yes. But in case there's anybody who is masochistic like my cousin India and is re- listening to this before they, before they read, technology goes in reverse. Um, uh, so they're, we are coming from a more technologically advanced future in the anti-universe.

Brett Benner 26:39

If you had the opportunity to go to that other side and live from now, and I'm talking about from where you are now, to go over- Mm-hmm and to your life, and then do it backwards, would you do it?

Chloe Benjamin 26:55

No, but I guess I say that with some wistfulness because it's, because there are things that I would love to reexperience, but you can't have both, and that's sort of the point. Right. You know? Whichever way you're going, whether you're going forward in our world or you're going backward in theirs, you can't have all of the gifts of each universe at once. You still have to choose. Would you?

Brett Benner 27:19

I don't think I would, and I don't think I would... Well, I, let me put it this way. It's hard because I say I, I wouldn't do it knowing what I know, but what I know- Yeah are only the factual things, like in 197- you know, this person was president or this- Mm we went to the moon this year. But you don't know that your experience would necessarily be the same. It's not like you're gonna repeat the way you grew up, right?

Chloe Benjamin 27:41

Right. Well, yeah, I mean, I think one quest- one open question is how much the universes diverge, and I really wanted- Yeah there to be enough wiggle room there that there, there is the possibility of n- of doing things differently, but you have to work at it. It's kind of like when Laurel is able to escape the clutches of this ex that she has in, in our universe, and then he's coming onto her in the anti-universe, but she now- Yes knows that he's, like, a dick, and she doesn't want anything to do with him. But she really has to, like, push against the will of the do-overs to do that.

Brett Benner 28:14

Right.

Chloe Benjamin 28:15

And that's kind of how I envision it. And I think that there's a parallel with, like, changing the trajectory of our world. Right. I mean, I've been thinking about this politically because I hate the thought that the anti-universe is moving inevitably back toward these horrors of the past, of our past. You know, I don't wanna accept that that has to be true, and for it not to be true, it would take work. It would take organizing and, like, pushing back, and I think the same is true now, right? Like, our world- I

Brett Benner 28:44

was gonna say, are you talking about our world or their world?

Chloe Benjamin 28:46

Well, exactly. I know because- Like, our-- There's so many things that I just feel really terrified about the direction that we're going in. And- Yeah so I would like to believe that there is the chance of change, but it can't be passive.

Brett Benner 29:02

Yeah. No, I think you're right The other thing that I, we couldn't get into is the whole element of with Silas, with their losing- Mm their son, and this idea of grief. But it also plays into what you're just talking about, of like making the decision for them to go back to try to recapture this moment to save him. Mm-hmm. But what does that do to the other side? And also-

Chloe Benjamin 29:25

Mm-hmm

Brett Benner 29:25

what is the trade-off? There, there's, there is a, there's a payment that's due kind of either way-

Chloe Benjamin 29:30

Mm. Mm

Brett Benner 29:30

in some respect, which I find so fascinating. But one of the most powerful things, and I was sitting in the car, my husband was driving and I was reading, and I got to the point when, you know, 'cause I, when Eli says like, you know, y- have, do you know what, what's going to happen in terms

Chloe Benjamin 29:50

of- Mm

Brett Benner 29:50

their son on- To

Chloe Benjamin 29:51

Laurel

Brett Benner 29:51

the other side. To Laurel- Yeah at this point.

Chloe Benjamin 29:54

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner 29:55

And that birth scene, or I should say death scene-

Chloe Benjamin 29:59

Mm

Brett Benner 29:59

is so incredible. And I was reading that out loud to my husband, who I'd only given him... It's again, very hard to describe the book, so I'm giving him broad strokes. Mm-hmm. And I just had to read the paragraph- Mm-hmm when the nurse takes her hand and s- she says, you know, "You're gonna know what to do." And she's like, "What should I do?" And she says, "Pull" instead of push. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like... I was so, I was so- Aw, thank you blown away by that and moved by that. But also it just put a whole nother level in terms of this mother and the mourning process, but also- Mm this child becoming a part of her again.

Chloe Benjamin 30:38

Mm.

Brett Benner 30:39

I don't know. It, it, that has made me kind of like, I can't get that idea- And

Chloe Benjamin 30:45

I- Thank you

Brett Benner 30:47

I don't know where you, how you even came up to think, oh, well, she- they're gonna take them in. And-

Chloe Benjamin 30:52

Mm

Brett Benner 30:52

this idea of an overseer who kind of shepherds it along, that again was-

Chloe Benjamin 30:57

Mm-hmm

Brett Benner 30:58

so incredible. Because it all made sense to me, and that's the crazy thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah. All of the things that we're working backwards, because of the way that we know as someone ages, they really become childlike again, whether it's-

Chloe Benjamin 31:09

Yes

Brett Benner 31:10

being dependent on other people, and, uh, even going as far as- Yeah putting a diaper on.

Chloe Benjamin 31:15

Right, right.

Brett Benner 31:16

Yeah I mean, really. And it's like I'm at the phase in my life when all of our parents are passing or we're getting to that phase. Mm. People are losing their mind, and they're, you know. Yeah. And so the fragility of all of it on either end- Yeah you've captured it beautifully. I mean- Oh, thank you it's

Chloe Benjamin 31:32

crazy. I- I'm so touched to hear that, and, um, I, I also, I can relate to what you're saying because when I was working on this book, my stepmother, Ellen, was slowly deteriorating with a very difficult dementia called Lewy body. Hmm. And I think I thought a lot about just the, the reversal, you know, and the kind of loss of independence and, and rights and sentience that you experience as you get- Yeah into that part of life. And I think the reason why even the surreal parts of this universe make sense is that they are the mirror of ours.

Brett Benner 32:12

That's

Chloe Benjamin 32:12

right. And so, you know, when... I mean, it is absolutely wild to me that we are born out of a human body and then disintegrate in the earth. We just don't think of it that way as wild because we're used to it. So all I did- Yeah was flip it. It's that you're born of the earth, and then you return to a human body. And that's- Yes mind-blowing, but it really is just the mirror. So that, that was sort of a guiding light for me, and, and I think my hope is that it makes us feel alive to all of the things that are awe-inspiring about life as it is, because it- it's not so different.

Brett Benner 32:45

But you know what, and you know what I've loved that you've done, because you've taken this story, and centrally, centrally, it's this story of these two people, and it is a love story, right? That, that honestly goes over years and reverses and goes back. But you, you, you take it at one point that's simple. It's like a, it's a meet cute, right? These two people coming together. Mm-hmm. And then all of this literally world explodes, and, and but you bring it all back to the most simplistic moment that's really just about the two of them again.

Chloe Benjamin 33:15

Yeah.

Brett Benner 33:16

And I love that so much because, you know, there is that moment as the reader where I'm thinking, "Oh, my God. Oh, my God. They're gonna get over. They're gonna take him. They're gonna get him." And even to the point- Mm-hmm when Silas is becoming part of her again, and the beautiful moment- Mm when Eli pushes the head in, and just that- Mm they do it together. And I kept thinking- Mm "Wait a minute. There's still 100 pages left of this book." Like they have to get over. They have to have this moment. And then finding out about Celeste and realizing- Yeah it's not just this. It's a really about the two of them and surviving through grief and surviving through- Mm-hmm everything that they've gone through together. It's really remarkable. And I don't know if that's- Oh, thank you even what you intended, but that's what I took from it.

Chloe Benjamin 34:00

No, no, it is. I, I, you know, I knew from the start when I had the idea that they would find Silas 2 again and lose him again. Like, that was always a part of the idea because I didn't want the takeaway of this book to be like, "Yay, they did it." You know? Right. "They're the heroes, and they succeeded, and they got everything they wanted," because that's not how life is. I knew that I wanted the book to exceed that point and to be more about finding acceptance afterward. And in some ways, they have gotten everything they wanted, or they've gotten more than they ever would have- Sure had they stayed in our world. But even so, there's loss. But something that I can say, s- since we're having a spoiler conversation, which I have been able to say to very few people, is that in my initial conception of the book, I knew that there needed to be doubles of each person in the anti-universe because I knew I needed Silas 2, but I wanted nothing to do with Laurel and Eli 2. I thought, "We're gonna make... I'm gonna destroy them." Laurel and Eli 1- Ah are gonna cross. That matter, anti-matter imbalance is gonna kick in. Laurel and Eli 2 disappear because all I need is Silas. And as I got into the second half, I just realized, like, that would be so disappointing, and also- This book is about Laurel's relationship with herself.

Brett Benner 35:20

Yeah.

Chloe Benjamin 35:21

And I think the relationship between Laurel 1 and 2 is actually the heart of the novel. Mm. Um, there's a, there's a few lines at the end where, you know, when they're trying to decide what to set the time- the stopwatch to. Yeah. And Eli's like... Or the pocket watch, and Eli says, "Set it to, to this year, then we can go back to before Silas died." Right. And Laurel says, "No, because we can't risk destroying our doubles." And then there's a, a paragraph there that are some of my favorite lines in the book about her relationship with the other Laurel. And, um, I th- you know, I, I mentioned briefly that I've been through chronic pain, which was a very long, multi-year process of healing for me, and so much of that was about building a healthier and more loving and more sustainable relationship with myself. And I think that is the undercurrent of this book that no one would ever know without hearing that because there aren't mig- there aren't migraines in the book. It's not, you know- Right that thread is not there. But I feel that I've learned how to be my own... It sounds so cheesy, but it's like to be my own friend. Like, the way that I feel about myself now is like, "We're in this together." Like, "Let's, let's do this." And that's, um, I think, yeah, it's, it's just what, what created Laurel 1 and 2, and I knew so little consciously about that at the start, and so that means there was no Celeste in my initial idea either because once I realized I wasn't going to destroy Laurel and Eli 2, I needed a reason that they would've crossed over. And so all of those, like, it's just amazing how, like, you can know so much at the outset, but then these major pieces didn't come in until years into the project, and they're absolutely crucial I think now.

Brett Benner 37:09

Well, yeah, and that's why I said in the beginning, it's like I can't imagine... Like, as things, as, like you said, as you go on, things are surprising you and informing itself as you get deeper into it, as you learn more. It's kind of like they're- They're, in a way, telling you what can and can't work for what you're doing. Mm. Do you believe in a, in an inverse world? Do you believe, or I should say even in the more simplistic terms, do you believe that we all have a double out there somewhere?

Chloe Benjamin 37:37

I mean, I, I-

Brett Benner 37:39

Right

Chloe Benjamin 37:40

I can't say that I believe it in the sense, like I feel that would be a little bit insane if it's like I created this and I believe... Like, I, it feels a bit cult leader. I guess I feel, you know, like, but I guess I feel like I don't... Who knows? Right. Who knows? You know, this is kind of one hypothesis. Um, so-

Brett Benner 38:00

You're like, "Scan the QR code at the end of the book."

Chloe Benjamin 38:04

Join me.

Brett Benner 38:06

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Chloe Benjamin 38:08

My agent did say when I told her about this book years ago, she, or maybe when she read the, the first bit of it, she was like, "I think there is gonna be like a Reddit forum that where people believe in the dualverse and talk about it." And I was like- Oh, I- "That's kind of my dream." I think that for sure. Like, I love

Brett Benner 38:24

that,

Chloe Benjamin 38:24

I love that people, I mean, if it gives people a way to like think about life, like that's, that's really thrilling as a writer.

Brett Benner 38:34

My, my last question before we go is the final moment in the book. I actually love the way you end it, which is very open. Mm. In your mind-

Chloe Benjamin 38:45

Mm-hmm

Brett Benner 38:45

do you know where they are?

Chloe Benjamin 38:47

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner 38:48

Can you say, or do you not wanna say?

Chloe Benjamin 38:51

I don't think I should because if I- Okay left it that way, don't you think it would sort of undo what- You know, yes but what do you think?

Brett Benner 39:01

I think they crossed. I think they crossed. Mm-hmm. I think they're back. Mm-hmm. But it didn't matter to me because, again- Mm by the time I was at the end, uh, I guess what I felt is this: I wanted them to cross-

Chloe Benjamin 39:13

Mm-hmm

Brett Benner 39:13

because I want their life to kind of reverse course and move on the way it was originally intended.

Chloe Benjamin 39:20

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner 39:21

Um, because they were so far along in the other that they were regressing so much that I felt like they were, like we talked about, losing autonomy in a different way that I think would- Mm-hmm be so much harder, and I also wanna believe in some kind of fantasy fiction thing that they go on, and maybe they have another child. Uh-

Chloe Benjamin 39:39

Mm.

Brett Benner 39:39

But it didn't matter to me. I didn't feel like... There's some times- Mm I get toward the end, I'm like, "Come on!" But I didn't feel that here. I

Chloe Benjamin 39:45

know, I know, and I know there's a risk of that, but it felt like it had to be that way because the book is so much about possibility. Um, but yeah, we should check back in a little while. That's all I'll say.

Brett Benner 39:59

Okay.

Chloe Benjamin 40:00

We

Brett Benner 40:00

should check back- Yeah, I'm, I'm- in a little while

Chloe Benjamin 40:00

I'm

Brett Benner 40:01

game for that. I'm game for that. Okay. And I'm not even gonna... I will tell everyone, I'm not gonna stop this recording and then be like, "Okay, tell me now." I

Chloe Benjamin 40:08

wouldn't. I

Brett Benner 40:09

really,

Chloe Benjamin 40:09

no- I wouldn't.

Brett Benner 40:10

No, I

Chloe Benjamin 40:10

know. I know. But I do have a question. I have a question for you.

Brett Benner 40:13

Yeah.

Chloe Benjamin 40:13

So I saw you've worked in casting, right? You've worked-

Brett Benner 40:16

I still do. Yeah, that's what I

Chloe Benjamin 40:17

do as a casting... Or you, or you do, okay. So one of the things that I loved about a character like Gloria is what it would offer an actor, like the ability to play, like, a teenaged elderly person.

Brett Benner 40:30

Yeah.

Chloe Benjamin 40:30

And so I'm curious, did any... What casting would you do?

Brett Benner 40:35

Well, you

Chloe Benjamin 40:35

could do a lot of different- 'Cause it is gonna be adapted.

Brett Benner 40:37

Oh, it is? So- Okay. Is it doing a- Yeah is it a feature or a series?

Chloe Benjamin 40:40

Yeah, it's WB, um, and David Heyman is producing.

Brett Benner 40:43

Okay, so wait, a series?

Chloe Benjamin 40:45

Oh, no, sorry. Film.

Brett Benner 40:46

Warner Brothers, okay. Um-

Chloe Benjamin 40:48

Yeah,

Brett Benner 40:48

yeah,

Chloe Benjamin 40:48

yeah

Brett Benner 40:49

well, you can do something. I mean, there are so many people that could do this. You can have a Glenn Close. You can have a Meryl Streep, who would tap into- Oh that so easily. Do you know Lesley Manville?

Chloe Benjamin 40:58

I know the name. I need to look her up. I, I probably recognize

Brett Benner 41:01

her. Lesley Manville just did this, she just did this production of Les Liaisons dangereuses in, London at the National. She has a ton of movies, and she would be great. She was also... Did you watch The Crown?

Chloe Benjamin 41:12

No

Brett Benner 41:12

Okay. She was in the second set in The Crown. She played Margaret- Okay um, the- Okay the, the sister. But she's an amazing actress, so I think she would be great, too. But I think, like, Close or Streep would be great, 'cause they both- Mm-hmm also too are so smart to me- Mm in terms of being that scientist and that professor.

Chloe Benjamin 41:33

Yeah. It's... I think I would just love to see that. I feel like I haven't seen that on screen yet, and I, I mean, Laurel and Eli are very hard for me to cast in my mind.

Brett Benner 41:44

Yeah, I mean, what age do you see them?

Chloe Benjamin 41:46

I know, but that's the thing. If they have to go from, like, 16 to 36-ish.

Brett Benner 41:52

And then do you... 'Cause you obviously physically they start to change, so I mean, the majority- Mm-hmm of it they're one thing, but then- Mm-hmm you also have to find kids. I mean, look at, there's those Stranger Things kids who are... Like, Sadie Sink could be an amazing You know who Sadie Sink is?

Chloe Benjamin 42:07

Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner 42:08

She would be an amazing young version of Laurel. Mm. But then who does Sadie Sink become? Does she become Julianne, you know, Julianne Moore is too old I think now, but does she become- Yeah you know, Emily, Emily Blunt, or does she become- Mm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

Chloe Benjamin 42:21

Do you think that one person could play teenage to late 30s

Brett Benner 42:26

i mean, you could get somebody and they could digitally, I'm sure, do something with somebody to make them still do the performance, but make them-

Chloe Benjamin 42:32

Mm-hmm

Brett Benner 42:33

um, younger. You can get someone in cast who would match so well with-

Chloe Benjamin 42:37

Mm-hmm

Brett Benner 42:37

whatever adult you get- Yeah that. God, but she's such a great role, like they both are, but she in particular, that is such- Mm an amazing role to think about all

Chloe Benjamin 42:48

the people- It's a bit, it's a lot of range that the person would have to have. Yeah. I could see, like, a Jennifer Lawrence, like a Brie Larson. Oh my God.

Brett Benner 42:56

Yep.

Chloe Benjamin 42:56

Um, those were kind of some people that... But, I mean, there's nobody who's, like, clear to me for that. So I was just so curious. It's, you know, I don't often get to talk about the, that side of things with an expert, so I just had to pick your brain.

Brett Benner 43:11

But I'm so curious, do you ever write with someone in mind at times, or does someone come up for you, or is it completely... It's more like- Sometimes you might be inspired by somebody

Chloe Benjamin 43:19

I mean, like with my grandmother and Gloria- Yeah but I don't picture Gloria looking exactly like my grandmother. I usually don't have, like, a celebrity in mind because I think that just conflicts with the sort of like-

Brett Benner 43:32

The purity of it?

Chloe Benjamin 43:33

Yeah. Yes. But I do, I do sometimes think about the adaptation. I can't help but not sort of have that cross my mind as I'm working, just because that's something that, you know, can happen in this field. So yeah. So we'll, we'll see.

Brett Benner 43:49

Chloé, I just wanna say thank you so much. I mean, first of all, uh, thank you for answering my, my private questions that we got at the end because I had to know, and I couldn't let you go without them. But the book is just absolutely beautiful and mind-blowing and mind-bending. Please go out and get it. Buy independent if you can. Have an amazing tour and, uh, you know, I just can't wait to see people's reaction to it.

Chloe Benjamin 44:12

Oh, thank you so much, Brett. You have been such an incredible reader and interviewer, and it's just, like, one of the most joyful parts of this process to be able to talk about it with somebody like you. So I appreciate you

Brett Benner 44:23

Thank you again, Chloe. If you've liked today's episode or other episodes of Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. And also, what would be really helpful to me, and if you have the time, would be to leave a review of the show and/or a five-star rating. All of these things are really helpful in order to get the show in front of other people who may not be aware of it yet. I will be back next week with another episode, and until then, you can find me on Instagram, Substack, and YouTube at Brett's Book Stack. And as always, thanks for listening