Josh Silver, Fruit Fly

Brett sits down with author Josh Silver to talk about his debut adult novel, Fruit Fly. They talk his previous acting career, working as a mental health nurse, appropriation, intention, gay identity what's acceptable or not, the ways we present ourselves, and the exhaustion to try and be the best, and being okay with just being.

Josh's instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/joshsilverauthor/

If you like what you're hearing on this podcast please subscribe so you never miss an episode!

Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack

Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack

Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack

Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com

Transcript

Brett Benner 0:00

hey everybody, it's Brett Benner, and welcome to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I'm sitting down with author Josh Silver for his brand new book, Fruit Fly, which is just fantastic. I couldn't wait for this book to be published here in the US because There's been so much buzz around the book in the UK, and let me tell you, it is all really warranted A little bit about Josh. In his 20s, he trained at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts, performing in the West End, including alongside Nicole Kidman, before changing careers to become a mental health nurse working with teenagers. His writing has been nominated for the Carnegie Medal and the YA Book Prize, and Traumaland was named a twenty twenty-five The Observer Book of the Year. Fruit Fly is his much anticipated debut adult novel, which has been selected by the BBC as one of their 12 books to read in 2026 and featured on the best books of 2026 lists in The Daily Express and The Daily Mirror. Josh lives in Manchester So I hope you enjoyed this episode of Behind the Stack. I am so thrilled to be sitting down with Josh Silver today. I remember seeing this cover so early on when it was first shown, and I thought, "I have to find out what this is about." And so I had been watching it for so long and then started to read about it, and I got so excited, and I'm sitting here talking about it, and I should show this gorgeous cover, which is Fruit Fly. It's just so beautiful, and this is the US galley, but I love these edges with the fly on it.

Josh Silver 1:33

Um- Yeah, that's the US arc.

Brett Benner 1:35

Yes, yes, yes. So I'm thrilled you're here. I couldn't wait to sit and talk with you about this, And I've loved just watching the discourse that started around this book, and I know it's gonna continue now as it's hit the States.

Josh Silver 1:48

Thanks, Brett. It's such a pleasure to be here as well. Y-

Brett Benner 1:50

Going into your background a little bit because I know that originally you had started as an actor, and I have to tell you that, I watched A Midsummer Night's Dream- Which was amazing

Josh Silver 2:01

Wait, you saw it in London?

Brett Benner 2:03

No, no,

Josh Silver 2:04

no You saw the filmed version.

Brett Benner 2:06

I saw the filmed version 'cause I was tooling around. And first of all, you were so good. Oh. You were just a baby. And, um- Yeah, I was a

Josh Silver 2:14

baby

Brett Benner 2:15

you really were. I mean, it was a phenomenal cast, and I was like, "Okay, this is almost like a who's who of where have all these people gone," and it's, it was just so- interesting to see. Also, the only thing I've ever seen at The Globe was the end of Hamnet, which I know was a reproduction of the actual set anyway.

Josh Silver 2:31

Of course.

Brett Benner 2:31

But it was really wild to watch a full-on production and see literally the people in the stalls standing, yeah. It's incredible.

Josh Silver 2:38

Yeah. The audiences were amazing. I was 23 when I did that, so, what is that? 13 years ago now. And I, yeah, I'd gone to drama school and been classically trained, and I suppose The Globe was kinda like what you hoped you'd be able to do. It was an incredible space to perform. You know, there's no mics. It's all outside and, you know, you, you perform through the night, and the, and the s- the sun sets behind The Globe and it creates this really lovely atmosphere. And yeah, I had a great time, and I was playing Demetrius, and it was a really fun show. We got, we got to play the comedy of it. It's, it's a bit like being at, you know, it felt a bit like being at a gig sometimes 'cause the audience would got so involved. But honestly- Love you're taking me back here, Brett. This was a long time ago. Sometimes I like to block out my acting career.

Brett Benner 3:26

I just was, I was so curious, and I'm sitting there watching it, and I, and again, like, I thought, "God, it's..." First of all, it, the production's great, but what I loved so much is watching the audience literally on the stage and leaning forward and so- Yeah invested. Yeah. And I kept thinking, "Oh, this is so sad because this would never happen in American theaters," because they'd be like, you know, "Where's my chair?" And just the fact that people were standing in the stalls for hours. I, I thought, "This is incredible." Like, this is what it's all about to me. That's the experience of,, theater, of connecting and the whole thing working together. I just thought it was beautiful.

Josh Silver 4:00

Oh, yeah. It was an amazing experience, and kind of the only thing Live, live theater brings that joy, that interaction between, uh, the performers and the audience. And yeah, I did a backflip on stage during that, because I used to... I was a gymnast when I was a kid. Did you see? Did it... Was that recorded? Yes. Yes,

Brett Benner 4:16

yes. Oh,

Josh Silver 4:17

I- Yes I used to get, I used to get nervous before it and get a bit panicky, and that I would land on my head in front of 2,000 people, but thankfully that didn't happen. But I remember telling the director, Dominic Chungool, "Oh, I can do a backflip." And he was like, "We're getting that in the show. The crowd will erupt." And we managed to squeeze it in after he wakes up, and, uh, suddenly he's had the potion put in his eyes, and he's in love with Helena, and he did a backflip. Um- Oh my

Brett Benner 4:41

God

Josh Silver 4:41

don't think I could do that anymore.

Brett Benner 4:43

Right, right.

Josh Silver 4:44

Yeah.

Brett Benner 4:44

Josh, when you reach my age, you will wake up and be like, "Why does this particular part of my body hurt? I didn't do anything last night." Oh, I'm- I was literally

Josh Silver 4:51

prone I'm getting that now. I'm, I'm- Oh my God getting that now.

Brett Benner 4:53

It's, it's, it's- I'm

Josh Silver 4:54

like, "Why is this sore? I haven't done anything."

Brett Benner 4:56

Yes. You have done nothing. I rolled over, and it hurt. Like, it's, it's the worst. Yeah. When was the decision, like, when did you start to say, "I want out this. I don't wanna be doing acting anymore"? And I know you made this transition and, and You trained to be a mental health nurse.

Josh Silver 5:09

Yes.

Brett Benner 5:10

When you first went into that, had the writing started, you know, at the same time, or had you always been writing a little bit even when you were acting?

Josh Silver 5:18

No, I'd never actually been writing while I was acting. I hadn't really tried it. I think what I'd done is attempted to be an actor and found it quite difficult. In terms of my relationship to it was, um, not a great one, and I was struggling at that time with my own mental health and how I was perceiving myself and just... I, I just didn't know myself, and I felt very lost. And- Mm I was, uh, going through this sort of a cycle of feeling... Like, for me at that point in my life, success was very synonymous with happiness. So my definition of success was very much tied up in the types of jobs I would get and, uh, what that looked like to an external eye. And so even when I would get a job that would be considered, uh, sort of exciting, it was never enough, and I felt like I was constantly trying to fill a void with this external validation, and it was really tough, and I didn't enjoy it. And also, I was, like, drinking and using drugs very heavily to cope with this lack of self-esteem. And, um, the, the wheels fell off, and it felt like it was a quick choice for the people in my life. So I told my parents and my brothers, "I'm, I'm gonna quit acting and become a nurse." And I think everyone was a bit like, "What?" Um, but they could see that I was unhappy, but they just thought nursing, that's quite left field. And, um, but for me, it wasn't. I'd been supported- By nurses and mental health professionals throughout my life. And then when I, uh, started thinking about what I could do as a different career, psychology is really interesting to me, but I couldn't do a psychology degree because I don't have the... Y- you- the government wouldn't fund that. So nursing was the only one I could really do there, and I just thought, "Screw it. I'm gonna just take a leap of something different." I got some advice, you know, you, you have to stop trying to, um, uh, fulfill everyone else's expectations of you. And I just thought, "Yeah, I'm gonna try and shift what I think success is and what it means and the definition of that word to me." And I started nursing, and I loved it. I, I have a very active, busy mind and, uh, I can become very obsessive in my thinking, and it just freed me from this sort of cage that I felt I was in, which was kind of self-obsession, I would say. Like, constantly thinking about myself as an actor, constantly thinking about how I was coming across. I just felt very present being on the wards amongst people, very busy, and the job really works for that. But I also felt creatively I wanted to be doing something, and I just started writing this book, Happy Head, which was my first YA book, and I've published three of them- Mm-hmm up until this point. And I just found this new flow because I've made a promise to myself. Firstly, like, I wouldn't limit myself or feel self-conscious as I did as an actor, and I wouldn't publish or, or send anything through that I couldn't stand behind 100%, so that I can have confidence in it. And I feel as an author, I have a different sort of kind of anchoring. I don't feel scared in the way that I did as an actor, where I was terrified about what anyone else would think. I have a lot more autonomy over what I'm doing creatively, what I'm saying creatively, and I just found that being part of the real world, to be honest, going from being in these circles of, I don't know, the acting world, it is what it is. But I went into seeing real life and I opened my eyes and I felt angry, uh, sad, and frustrated in many ways, and I started to channel those emotions into my books, yeah.

Brett Benner 8:52

Are you still doing the n- the nursing stuff, the mental health stuff?

Josh Silver 8:54

Well, that's a very interesting question. I've been nursing five years full time, and I've written five books in those five years. It isn't sustainable anymore- Yeah for me. I'm, I'm kind of hitting a point of Burnout, I would say. Although, you know, I'm just trying to make sure that I don't do that. I think I'm gonna be able to pull back a bit on the nursing over the next couple of years and focus on my writing, which I'm really grateful for. Um, and I think Fruit Fly doing well is allowing that to happen, so I'm incredibly grateful. I do love nursing. I love it as a profession, and I love what I get from it, but it is like having two careers. And many, many authors will understand the difficulty of, and the pressure of having a full-time job whilst writing books and meeting deadlines. It's exhausting. And I mean, I'm, I'm a single guy. I don't have kids. I can only imagine what it's like for people who have families as well to support, so it's tough. But I'm very grateful that I think I should get a bit of space this year to write my next one.

Brett Benner 9:56

You know, so much of what you're saying too, I think your journey and what you were facing is It's, it's so common, 'Cause I was an actor for years before I finally went out of it, and I'm still in the business, so I see all this. But I also think, yeah, you know, now, and this is something we can get into in relation to the book, but the whole social media component and what that does now, and I can't imagine for people, but even beyond actors, just the whole influencer vibe and, uh, and that whole thing and what it does to people. And the... And I look at my own kids, 'cause I do have children, and the stress of that, of-

Josh Silver 10:31

Yeah

Brett Benner 10:32

what that does. I can't imagine how awful some of this was to arrive to where you needed to be, but to come to that understanding for yourself and come through it, you know? And, and, uh- Right and be okay, and also find this avenue where you can be creative. I think it's

Josh Silver 10:47

great. Yeah. Thank you. That... Yes. It's... I th- I don't think, you know, there's, there's the sort of notion of thinking I couldn't have written the books I'd written if I hadn't been through what I'd been through. I actually, when I was 17 and at school, I applied to Cambridge University 'cause I did well at school, and I got in to read English at Cambridge, and I ended up not going, and I went to RADA, the drama school instead. And I remember going to the post box and having the two... It was the da- in the days of post boxes, having the two letters in my hands, and I had my no to Cambridge and my yes to RADA, and, like, looking up at the sky in very dramatic fashion and being like- "Please can this be the right choice?" And then, you know, I got to drama school, and I actually felt like I'd made a mistake for the m- Mm-hmm most of my experience there. And I felt... I think part of the reason I fell into, like, very unhealthy coping mechanisms was I felt like I didn't align with acting, and I felt like I didn't have the confidence, or that confidence was taken away from me, and I felt like I couldn't quite meet my, uh, potential in that arena, and I spent so much of my time thinking I should have done English. I should have s- studied at Cambridge. I would have... You know, I, I'm from Salford in Manchester, and that kind of opportunity doesn't come around that often, and I think lots of people were very surprised that I didn't take that route. But I Look back now and I think, but the books that I write are very much... I, I've been able to meet parts of myself that I didn't know were there and that are very important to turn those rocks over for myself and they hugely inspire my writing. And as a gay man, which is what I struggled with, a lot of it was coming to terms with who I was, was part of the pain I was feeling. That pain is, um, very much central to a lot of my writing and, uh, it is amazing to be able to connect with people through that and to find a readership, but also to have people perhaps learn a little bit about the experience of how it can be for queer people and how the change in the media landscape and the societal conversation has affected us and our emotional world. But also I think avoidance of pain is something I'm very interested in because I did, I did it for so long with substances and you can do it with so many things, substances, other people, being on stage. You c- you know, I kind of even, there's a case for me saying I even do it with writing books. The reason I've written five books in five years and nursed full-time is because I'm intent on avoiding myself and, and I will only settle when I feel like I've achieved a certain amount of things. I definitely think there's a case for that. But I also think that I'm, I'm, I'm trying to interrogate a part of, uh, the human experience that I think the, the world that we live in now, it gives us so many opportunities to remove ourselves from, which is like- Sure sitting with uncomfortable pain and what that is and where it's come from.

Brett Benner 13:43

Yeah, Okay. So getting into the book now, do you have a, uh, I know you have one 'cause I've heard it, it's so good, but an, an elevator pitch for Fruit Fly?

Josh Silver 13:53

Okay. So, uh, Fruit Fly follows the story of Mallory Maddox, who is an author, but she has writer's block, and she's desperate to find some inspiration for another bestseller that she wants to write. So she drunkenly in her bathroom one night Googles how to write a bestseller and a Reddit post tells her, "Go gay, go sad, go dark. That's what sells now." So she drunkenly downloads Grindr, which is a gay hookup app, and takes photos of her husband while he's asleep and creates a profile in order to orbit gay men. Um, she begins a conversation with a man called Daddy, and Daddy invites her to a tea party. So she thinks, "Oh, fantastic, tea with the gays." So she takes a hamper and she turns up, but when she arrives she realizes the tea is Tino, which is crystal meth, and she's on the front doorstep of a chem sex party. Whilst she's there, she meets a young man called Leo who is twenty-two years old. Uh, he is emotionally broken, an addict, and, um, she sees his pain and she thinks, "There's my protagonist." And she starts to stalk him and write his life as her book. But Leo has his own agenda, and he-- it is about how their two worlds, uh, intertwine.

Brett Benner 15:02

I found both of these characters so fascinating. And I have to tell you, like, Mallory in particular, she's such an interesting woman because it would be very easy to very quickly classify her as a, the kind of archetypal villain per se and say, "Oh, you know, she's the baddie and this is terrible," but you don't do that. First of all, what you do so well in your book is It's heavy at times. It's very heavy, and the stuff with Leo is really intense. But you also infuse so much humor into this thing. And, and, and that's one of the reasons why I th- I think it really sings because it lets you go through these moments. And, and just reading again, I was reading back over parts of it with Mallory as she's, even trying to acclimate and figure out what this kind of quote, "gay lifestyle" is, and all of the things she doesn't know. And from vernacular to, finding a way to relate to something, y- you make her, despite what she's doing, sympathetic. And I think that is, is great because you do go through a lot of it and think, Okay," and we'll get into this, but this question of appropriation and, and taking somebody's story. And one of the things I was thinking about is, where's the line drawn? You know what I mean?

Josh Silver 16:21

Yeah.

Brett Benner 16:21

At what point?

Josh Silver 16:22

Yeah. Well, that's the question I'm asking really, and I think, uh, that, you know, I, I always try and say like, we must start from a place of creative freedom. It's really important that we do that. It, it's important that people, that we don't limit creativity. But it is an interesting line to cross over into whether you are appropriating someone's story f- uh, and I would always want to bring into this, uh, debate what the person's intention is. Is it to shine a light on, a part of a demographic that they really care about or that they're interested in, or is it to make money? Now it's Pride Month at the moment, and I think, you know, pride has changed over the years, and I find this month to be particularly interesting, uh, when we're thinking about this discourse because I see the pride flag everywhere. I see companies using it in order to, you know... And, and y- I, I ask their intention, what is your intention? Is your intention to hold up and affirm and be allies of a community that are still going through a lot of societal and political struggles, or is it because there is now an appetite or there is a consumable market for pride and the LGBTQ+ community, and there's a fetishization of queer people? And I wonder the motives of the people at the top of these companies and who they are and what choices they're making, you know, to wrap their bars of soap in a rainbow flag and sell it and say- Hmm that they're an ally, and yet still we see how, how my community and, um, their rights are becoming eroded, and it can piss me off. When I started acting, I was told You can't be gay. You know, no one- Right can know you're gay. Right. This was 20- 2012 I graduated, and the, the, had the fear of God in me that someone, some producer or casting director or director would find out that I was gay and that I'd get blacklisted or whatever. And, I mean, I was never good enough to be blacklisted, but what I, um, what I mean by that is it, it made me hate myself. And, and I honestly the, the, the cultural narrative made so many gay men hate themselves. And- Sure then cut to seven, eight years later and there's this shift of we need diversity. Oh, all of a sudden y- yes, go be gay, be gay, go into your auditions. In fact, they're only casting gay men for this role. They're only wanting to see gay men for this role. You go and tell them you're gay. Like, be as gay as you want. Take your feather boa into that audition room, Josh- and show them. And then the, the sort of emotional whiplash of that is disorientating to say the least, but also suddenly you're dealing with this self-hatred that you've had for so long. Like, I can't be myself and be accepted, uh, to, oh, now I have to perform it. Now I have to perform who I am in order to be seen and accepted and make money and work and live. And the book interrogates that because not only is Mallory taking Leo's story, but Leo is actually creating a version of his own pain and performing a lot of his own trauma because he's adapted in a way where he's realized that he gets things from people if he performs his pain and they see it. So actually it's a meeting of two points where it's Leo's version of his life and Mallory stealing that. And I find that an interesting spot to start the story because I wanna know, you know, that neither of them are really telling the truth.

Brett Benner 19:48

Correct. And they're both looking for an escape-

Josh Silver 19:52

Yeah

Brett Benner 19:52

to me in some ways. And her escape, you know, i- i- initially, and we're not gonna give any spoilers, but her initially, too, it's, you know, she had written this book that was a bestseller. She's had a big lull, and she's trying to find that next great thing. But again, it gets back to, to what we were saying, you were talking about even with acting before, this comparison thing of this is what I need, and I need this for success. But also it becomes later a, it's a, it's a larger need for her of what it means and of her own situation that she's trapped in to escape into something larger and the avenue that she can do that in- Mm-hmm and how she sees that to me. Which again, is when I spoke in the beginning about her, you've created this kind of backstory for her that allows the reader, or at least I should say this reader, I'm sure other people are gonna interpret it in their own way, to sympathize somewhat with some of it, while also questioning what she's doing. It's a very interesting kind of duality. Yeah. And, and, and that's why I asked in the beginning about, you know, at what line is it? And I think it does fall down to what you say, what is the intention ultimately?

Josh Silver 21:01

Mm-hmm. And there's also a bit of, you know, it's a, it's a murky conversation because she sort of starts to rationalize, "Well, maybe I am a bit gay. Maybe I actually am." Yes. "And Virginia Woolf was, and you know- Right my brother was gay, and he killed himself, so I have, uh, I have the right to tell this story." And she starts going down that route of self-justification. And I just find that an interesting conversation to have. I, I think because from anyone who is from a community where there's been an element of ostracization, that it can be difficult wrestling with feelings of people who, you know, may Use the parts of the community that are great and positive and feel-good, but understand that the, the legacy of pain and trauma that comes with it is very deeply rooted and actually affects every interaction you have with everyone. It's interesting to me, and I just wanted to open that conversation up, and it's definitely sparked that.

Brett Benner 22:03

Well, because she also, she is that representation of that white cis heterosexual, heteronormative kind of world, right? And it's exactly what you're speaking to right now, and I, I hear conversations, I see it all the time, especially when it's, you know, in the Bookstagram world, but beyond that, of the whole discourse, especially when it comes to race especially as well as sexuality and gender, of people saying, you know, "Oh, get over it," or, "This happened so long ago," or- Yeah "I don't understand why you're still having this issue," or-

Josh Silver 22:35

Yeah

Brett Benner 22:35

you know, and I- You're fine now.

Josh Silver 22:36

You can get married.

Brett Benner 22:37

Yes.

Josh Silver 22:37

You can... You've got the same rights as

Brett Benner 22:38

I. That's it. That's it. And it's interesting hearing you talk about the Pride stuff this year, and it's funny 'cause I th- I feel like here in America, and I don't, I don't know enough about the differences between the two places, but I feel like for us, it kind of peaked, and suddenly, you know, with this current administration and what's been going on- Yeah this kind of veil has been lifted, and especially with these major corporations saying, "Oh, we don't have to pretend anymore. We don't have to do this anymore." Yeah. And now suddenly we're gonna have our campaign for June be Family Month versus Pride Month. And so- Wild yeah. Uh, but there's a part of that- Well, then it,

Josh Silver 23:17

that does reveal the intention,

Brett Benner 23:19

doesn't it? That's exactly right. And for me, as a gay man, there's a part of me, and I don't know why I feel like- Okay, this, this substantiates, I think the belief I've had all along, right? Is what you're saying, had we-- did we just wrap a piece of soap in rainbow ribbon and say, "We support you," when we all know it's about consumerism and how much money we can get these people to buy our products? So for me, it's kind of like the devil you know at this point, and, and I hate them being that person. It's like, "I told you so." And I, I want-- I am a positive person, but I'm, I'm also a, a little bit of a glass is half empty person in regards to things like this because- Yeah and maybe it's my own, because I, like you, started the same way. And when I first started to audition in Los Angeles, my agent called me, and she said, "I got really weird feedback on you." And I said, "What was the feedback?" And she said, "Well, they wanted to know if you had a lot of Southern friends." And I said, "I don't, I don't understand what that means." And she said, "Well, your whole bearing, your whole thing. They said your diction was a little muddied, and your-- you just seemed like you were somewhat Southern." And I knew what she was talking about because that was me covering, right? Yeah. I was so afraid, having come out of a training program, that I was going to have this standard American speech and sound very kind of erudite and-- but for me, it was all gay. It was-- everything was coded in my head.

Josh Silver 24:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett Benner 24:42

Gay, soft, anything. So I was trying to overcompensate with that by- Yeah coming in in a leather jacket, and my boyfriend at the time had a motorcycle, and he drove me to the auditions. I'd walk in with a motorcycle helmet and was trying- Yeah to give this persona of something that I just wa- wasn't, and like you, terrified of being discovered, terrified of somebody recognizing it and seeing it, and that would mean the end of everything before it even began. And, uh-

Josh Silver 25:12

Yeah

Brett Benner 25:14

It's crazy

Josh Silver 25:15

I'm interested in that in the book as well in terms of the way we perform our sort of who we see ourselves as. And, and, you know, I, I think throughout my life I've certainly done that. And pr- in the way that Leo performs his pain, I was like, "Oh, I'm this sort of fucked up, edgy, rolly smoking," you know, the tortured artist vibe and like, um, struggling, when actually I was in a lot of pain and I was really struggling, but I was trying to adapt it to make it useful for me and to use it to get what I needed. In the same way when I used to audition, yeah, same, trying to look like I'm this cheeky, like, or like performing and be on and the... You know, there's an acceptable version of gay where you can be, if you're funny and- Right charming- Right then you get away with it. But if I just come in and be like, I don't know, myself, then it's not enough. It's not enough to do that. Right. And so I'd been through many versions of... I remember I used to have to, like, hype myself up before auditions, and not, I don't mean, like, in an energy-wise way, but in a way of like, "I need to put on this persona right now so that they see a confident," and I guess straight acting person walking into the room, and 'cause it was palatable back then, you know? And I just think when I quit acting, I just shattered the expectations of, well, firstly what success looks like for me, but also who I am, how I perform, how, you know... I wanted to get rid of... I, I felt like I spent quite a few years unlearning a lot of behaviors that I built up in order to avoid feeling pain. S- because it was always gonna be there underneath. I was just doing more and more avoidance, and what I actually want, wa- wanted to do is, like, get to the crux of it and figure out where it had come from.

Brett Benner 27:01

Well, it's an interesting thing too, 'cause even, and Leo faces this, even within the gay community and the, the kind of presentational sides of yourself that you have to be and what people find acceptable, and there's this whole discourse about masculinity and being masculine or butch or femme or, or all of that, that is still so prevalent of what are you and what do you present as. And, you know, there's guys who might be more femme who are feeling attacked by guys who are more masc and all these kind of things that come up and, and the way that we have to constantly reinvent ourselves To stay attractive and relevant and, um, feel like we're part of the conversation. And, and I, I, I see that so much in this character. It's so interesting because there were so many times, and, and perhaps it speaks to the success of kind of his performative nature of wanting to kind of reach through the pages and just give him a hug. And I wrote this page down where he says, "Like maybe I was that kind of person, that it might have made sense, 'cause I wasn't weird in a creepy way, but people called me, what the fuck was it? Man of Mystery. Yeah, that was it. I liked it 'cause it was sort of romantic, a bit edgy and cool and peripheral, but I had no idea what was under it, the mystery. I... Just a mess of absolute no fucking clue. I knew I was gay, and that was fine, but it also wasn't, not really. I didn't know what kind of gay to be, so I just decided to be mysterious. Inside, though, I was at a million miles an hour. I was on lightning speed, and I really just wanted people to think that I was fucking interesting." And that resonated so much. I mean You know, uh, I still f- I still feel that, you know? Yeah. Um- Yeah I, I think that part of him is so relevant for so many gay men and people just generally wanting to feel seen. And I think it's so much of he just wants someone to see him.

Josh Silver 29:03

Yeah, totally. He wants to be seen as himself and be able to just... I mean, he's in survival. They're both in survival mode, which is w- where I l- really enjoy placing my characters 'cause it makes for interesting choices. And, um, he has been in survival mode for so long that he's exhausted, and actually the idea of stopping and slowing down is terrifying to him because in a way, subconsciously, it means being with himself. And, you know- Right I think I really relate to that. Uh, I've been diagnosed with ADHD, and I d- I, I only say that because I know that lots of people, um, are receiving that diagnosis later in life. There's-- I'm a mental health nurse, so I know quite a lot about symptoms and the crossover between different things, and there's a lot of crossover between the symptoms of ADHD and, um, PTSD. Right. And actually, I feel like what, what happens f- for me is that I have generated a speed within myself so that I don't have to sit with my own presence, and that can work in terms of work addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, uh, coming across as, I don't know, confident, uh, a personality that seems at ease, chill, clever, funny. All of that is a generation motored by the desire to not be still with myself, and I think if... I, I'm not a doctor, and I would never diagnose myself, but I do feel like that makes sense to me, and it's because when I have to really think about the pain, I mean, I, I've done work and explored it, and, and I, I know that it's, it's been too much for me to sit with. And, but-- and in a way, it's a blessing and a curse 'cause often people are like, "You're just so productive." And I'm like, "Yes, but I'm also, like, often very uncomfortable with myself," and feeling like, uh, I want to feel more content, and I want to feel more peace, you know? Uh, that speed and that throwing myself through life, uh, ro- robs me from the present moment

Brett Benner 31:07

I'm laughing, I'm laughing just because I feel like you've s- like you've just literally just diagnosed me, and that's why I'm sitting here laughing at this

Josh Silver 31:14

I do believe that as gay and queer people in general, we're born into trauma. Like, the world that we're born in, especially with this new, um, political landscape. But we inherit it, and we are born into it, and we have to come out to everyone we meet, and we have to- Yeah, constantly we have to explain ourselves over and over and over again with our behaviors, with the way we look. Like, "I'm gay, but look at me doing well. I'm gay, but look at- That's right how I'm achieving. I'm gay, but look how I'm not depressed." Best little boy in the world "Look how I'm actually mo- I've healed my pain, and I'm gay, but look." Whereas... And that is fucking painful to come from all the time, meeting people in that head space, and it's exhausting. And I know a lot of gay men, and I know a lot of gay men who are like m- m- in m- in their mid-30s like me, have hit a point of like, "I can't keep living like this." And I feel like it's burnout, it's exhaustion, and it's nervous system shutting down saying, "Nope, we cannot continue this performance anymore." And, and that's why I think there's also a high prevalence of suicide rates in, in the LGBTQ+ community and a high prevalence in men. And I think it's because, well, I'm not gonna say, uh, one of the reasons may be because we plow through trying and trying and trying and trying, and actually being ourselves is not an option for us subconsciously. And then when we feel like we have to sort of... we can't keep going, meeting ourselves is very painful, and turning over the, you know, the rocks of where it all comes from is hard, and you have to start looking at your childhood and what that looked like to you, and you have to start looking at your relationships and, um, and your position socially and politically, and it all becomes a lot, doesn't it?

Brett Benner 32:53

And sometimes you just You don't wanna think anymore. You just don't. You just wanna sit and be and not... That's what I find. You said something about, you know, your mind is working and you, your mind is going, and I've always had that thing too, this thing of not being able to quiet my mind a lot of time and having to constantly be doing something and finding it very hard to just take a moment and sit and feel okay, and not like I have to be doing something, and not like I have to be performing something.

Josh Silver 33:26

Yeah. That's my life.

Brett Benner 33:28

Just being okay with just being.

Josh Silver 33:31

Yeah.

Brett Benner 33:31

And that's it. And again, that's why I'm looking at Leo and hearing you say these things, and I do think it's very, it's like the best little boy syndrome, right? That you have to be the best. It's like I listened to the Obamas talking about when they were in the White House. There was no room to be anything but exemplary, excellent people because anything that they would've done, Barack Obama wearing a tan suit was awful, was terrible. It's like living under that, which we do, is like you said, it's like the coming out process alone, it never ends because you're always meeting new people, and there is always this moment of like, "Here we go again." Yep. "And how is it gonna be received, and what does that mean?" And do you correct the person who makes an assumption about you that you're heterosexual and says, "Wife, girlfriend," and you have to adjust? Yeah. It's, it is. It's a, it, it is, it's absolutely exhausting.

Josh Silver 34:26

Exhausting.

Brett Benner 34:28

Yeah.

Josh Silver 34:28

Yeah. And, you know, I, I'm gonna look at this in my next book actually, but there is a sort of- I feel like there's a-- I think in the queer community, there are often boxes given within it and different types of, different types of different types. And, um, you know, there's the sort of like high-functioning gay who did very well at school, makes a lot of money, uh, has a lovely house, works very hard, is very sociable, has their shit together, wears really nice clothes, very groomed, always hench, lo- at the gym, so somehow does all this, has a career, and it's all very achievable. And, and the, you know, there's a joke of like, "Oh, he must be gay 'cause he's kind and he's handsome." I actually think that is like coming from a place of trauma. It's coming from a place of being needed to be that type of person to be accepted. And also, that's a very pai-painful place to be because it, it's a performance. It is. It's a performance, and the standards are high. And I often feel like we feel like we have to fit a certain box within our box, and that's hard. Sometimes people feel like they have to decide rather than just have the whole experience going on, you know? But yeah, I'm gonna r- I'm gonna write a bit about that in my next book, I think.

Brett Benner 35:46

I'm so curious, in the book, Leo's poetry, if that was your stuff that you had originally written that you then moved into for him, or if that was something that was created, uh-

Josh Silver 35:55

It just-

Brett Benner 35:56

for the

Josh Silver 35:59

book in the publishing world, it can become quite snooty and reverential and self-expression is self-expression. Yeah. And he's found this avenue of posting these poems on his, on a little Instagram page, and he gets quite a few likes for them because people seem to relate to their sort of gritty urban nature, which in itself can then be commercialized. But he- he's just trying to express himself, and there's an element of judgment that comes with that, that people will- Mm have of him and his poetry. I've had people message me saying the poetry's shit, and I was... and I think, well, that's absolutely fine. I don't think Leo really wants his poetry to be fantastic. I think it's actually possibly the only way he's able to be honest, and it's an avenue for him to explore stuff that... And, and he does like using language and words and, uh, he was good at school at English. And there's an element of him that, that I had, I think, when I didn't go and do the degree I thought I was gonna do, um, where he feels like that's a route I could possibly go down one day- Mm if I could, you know. And, and I just wanted to see his creativity versus her creativity, and his is authentic to him. And then when Stan at the end of the book, sorry to reveal any spoilers here, um, but when he replies to Leo and says, "Oh, thanks for your poetry, but I'm actually only really taking on, on stuff that feels really authentic and LGBT." This is coming from a straight guy. And I just- He's a, he's a publisher there's- I

Brett Benner 37:29

don't

Josh Silver 37:30

know about that either about his poetry. And I just thought like, I feel like that's a comment I wanna make about who's pushing the narrative about what is authentic, and through whose gaze do you mean this is authentic, and who is it feeding? W- you know, it's, it's mass market appeal for some people, this kind of version of it. And when you say authentic, what you really mean is what I think is authentic and what the people who are buying the books think is authentic or see as authentic or strikes a chord of authenticity. And his, his poems like, yeah, they might be shit, but they're very authentic to him. And if the publishing world is driving for authentic voices and, and the storytelling world wants authentic voices, there are loads of them. There are loads of them. Give them a chance.

Brett Benner 38:13

People saying to you, "Well, I thought that the poetry was shit." It brought to mind a question, which is how do you... 'Cause look, I understand fully as an actor when you take a, a personal criticism or someone criticizes your work, whether it's a critic or whether it's a person, because it's so immediate- Mm right? It's you. You are that person. So Is the experience different for you with your writing in terms of if there is that criticism, are you able to say like, "That's fine, I understand that"? Do you have a better defense mechanism for yourself in terms of writing that you did previously?

Josh Silver 38:48

Yeah, totally. I think it was part of what I'd sort of promised to myself when I quit acting and started writing was to be able to stand by what I've written, but also to be able to learn. And, if you're putting work out there, it's subjective. You've got to be open to people having an opinion on it. And rather than get... If... I mean, it's not nice when people get personal, but it is if it's about the work and they have a point of view on it, and it... I, I'm interested in it, and I typically find it very interesting to see what people might think. And I'm also... I've grown up a bit, and I'm able to see that people's point of view come from their own experience, and it's, it's- Yeah often about the way they're seeing the world too, and I find that very interesting. And also, if something in my work is making someone feel uncomfortable, I wanna know, and I, I'm in- interested to hear why. And, um, you know, it's a way for me to learn about other people as well. But I do want people to, to learn, hopefully learn a bit too. But I don't really get, I don't really get... Unless someone's personal about me, I'm just a bit like, "Why would you?" Um, no, I'm okay with it. When I was an actor, I couldn't hack it. I couldn't deal with it. I couldn't deal with being judged. I would be on stage thinking, "Oh my God, they all hate me. I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible." Um, now I don't really think like that. I think, "I wonder how people will receive this," and I wonder if... Uh, you know, I'm just more curious about people's responses than scared.

Brett Benner 40:09

That's awesome. That's awesome. Has this been optioned yet? Maybe you can't talk

Josh Silver 40:13

about it. With Fruit Fly?

Brett Benner 40:14

Yes.

Josh Silver 40:16

I can't say too much, but it's, it... I, I've met with a, quite a few people and, uh, fingers crossed something will be, uh, yeah, closed soon.

Brett Benner 40:30

Yeah, I was literally turning the magic eight ball and saying, "Signs point to yes."

Josh Silver 40:35

Yeah. Yeah.

Brett Benner 40:36

That's-

Josh Silver 40:36

I think so. Yeah. It's been a very exciting time and for that, and, like, I'm learning a lot very quickly. But it's so exciting, and I think many people are interested in how visual the book feels when you read it, and that's really exciting to me that people like that it feels cinematic in a way and, and I'm... I love that. I write a lot of it in real time. I've done a lot of my writing where I do that sort of, like, scenes. Each chapter feels like a scene. It's like I feel when I'm writing that it's quite episodic, and I like that. I like having that bridge at the end of each chapter to get people to wanna read the next one, and I think I learnt that through binge-watching TV series. And there's something about... I'm massively inspired by, you know, plot arcs in TV shows, how the story's told visually, and how you keep a reader or a, or a viewer hooked, and it's massively influential in my writing. So it's, it's exciting to think that there could be the potential of that happening, yeah.

Brett Benner 41:30

Okay, so then I have to ask, just before we go, tell me some of the shows you love watching, like, that you've loved recently.

Josh Silver 41:36

The Testaments, have you seen it?

Brett Benner 41:38

This is the, the, the sequel, prequel to The, uh- Handmaid's

Josh Silver 41:42

Tale.

Brett Benner 41:44

No, and the only reason I haven't is because Handmaid's Tale was so hard for me to watch. By the end of the second season, I, I just needed, like, a Karen Silkwood shower, and I had to kind of step back from the whole thing because of everything that was going on. So okay, that's

Josh Silver 41:56

great. The reason I love it is because the storytelling to me is incredible because it is a huge scale dystopian show told through nuances in relationships, and that's what I find clever, and it's relatable, and you... And also, there's this incredible team of young women that you're just like, I'm getting... The hairs go up on my arms when I think about it- Yeah. Yeah like, you're willing them to succeed, and I, I just love the storytelling in it. I think it's brilliant, and it's exciting for me s- that, that, that... And Margaret Atwood has always been a big inspiration of mine. My YA books are far more dystopian. In fact, they are. And, um, I, I love it. She's a- able to tell her point of view through relationships and through people who have their own limitations and their own blinkers on and their own, you know, inability to see- Um- things clearly. I'm watching that. I'm loving it.

Brett Benner 42:53

And what are you reading?

Josh Silver 42:55

You

Brett Benner 42:56

have a penchant, you have a penchant for horror novels, don't you?

Josh Silver 42:59

I do like horror novels, yeah. I very much do like them. What did I just get? I've got my table here. Uh, I've got a massive stack of books that I need to get through. I've, I read Rejection. Did you read it?

Brett Benner 43:10

Oh, Tony? Yeah. Tony, uh, I haven't read it yet. Oh. I hear it's great, though.

Josh Silver 43:15

Incredible. Loved it. Mm, absolutely loved it. I've... Do you know, it's interesting, when I'm writing, I don't read fiction. I read nonfiction. Uh-

Brett Benner 43:21

A

Josh Silver 43:21

lot of people do

Brett Benner 43:22

that, yeah. A lot of writers I find do

Josh Silver 43:23

that. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm, I'm about to start writing again, so I've had a little period of reading novels, and sometimes I just need, you know, your appetite for what kind of novel you want shifts and changes, and sometimes you just want something a little easier or a different point of view, and I... So I'm trying to just, like... But, you know, I do struggle. I'm, I, I don't find it easy to read. I, I often have to listen and read at the same time. Yeah, I do too. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, I miss it. I've got some, like, books I wanna get into that are nonfiction. Um, I, I'm, I'm really interested in personality development and sort of learning about the psychology behind how we develop as humans, and I'm really into, like, Gabor Maté and, um, I, I really like the way he writes compassionately about stuff, and that kind of stuff gets me in the world. And I am now gonna start shifting into that kind of reading 'cause I'm starting my next book, which is again gonna be rooted in the sort of way we develop our personalities to perform.

Brett Benner 44:27

This is an adult book as well?

Josh Silver 44:28

Yeah.

Brett Benner 44:29

Awesome. Well, Josh, this has been a delight. I could, I could literally- Yeah, it was so nice to meet you, Brett just talk to you all day. And please go out and get the book. It is fantastic. If you can, please buy independent. I'm so excited for American audiences to discover Leo and Mallory. Uh- Thanks, Brett. I really

Josh Silver 44:45

appreciate your amazing questions, and it was honestly a pleasure to talk to you

Brett Benner 44:52

Not long after we finished this interview, it was announced that A24 UK had won the rights to adapt Fruit Fly as a television series, and Josh will serve as one of the executive producers If you liked today's episode or other episodes you've heard of Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. And what would be really helpful to me is if you can go to your podcast platform of choice and give the show five stars, and if you have the time and what would be above and beyond, give the show a review. All of these things help other people discover the podcast so I can continue to bring you conversations like this one. I will be back next week with another episode, and until then, you can always find me on Instagram, YouTube, and Substack at Brett's Book Stack. And as always, thanks for listening