Rasheed Newson, There's Only One Sin In Hollywood

Brett talks with author Rasheed Newson about his latest book, 'There's Only One Sin In Hollywood.' They discuss dreamers in Hollywood and what it takes to succeed, Diahann Carroll and Sydney Poitier, and writing real life icons into stories, stars and privacy, oppression and creating safe spaces, mixing politics with celebrity, and the double standards that still exist in the industry.

Rasheed's website:

https://www.rasheednewson.com/

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https://www.instagram.com/rasheed.newson.author/

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Transcript

Brett Benner 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner, and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind The Stack, where today I'm sitting down with author Rashid Newson for his brand new book, There's Only One Sin in Hollywood. I loved Rashid's first book, which came out in 2022, My Government Means to Kill Me, and I have to say, this is just as good, if not better than his first. A little bit about Rashid. He grew up in Indianapolis, Indiana, and is the eldest of three children. He is a graduate of Georgetown University, where he wrote movie reviews for the school newspaper, The Hoya. During his time in Washington, DC, Rashid also worked in the communication department for the Coalition of Juvenile Justice. For five years, he volunteered as a tutor caretaker at Grandma's House, a group home for foster children who are HIV positive or living with AIDS. In 2002, Rashid moved to Los Angeles and joined the entertainment industry. He worked as a production assistant, an executive assistant, an assistant to a showrunner, and the second assistant to a network president. He has an ID badge from every studio lot. Rashid's writing career Began when he partnered up with TJ Brady, And together they were hired as staff writers on the Fox drama, Lie to Me. As a writing team, Rasheed and TJ Have worked on Bel-Air, The Chill, and Narcos, among other drama series. Rashid lives with his husband and their two children in Pasadena, California. So I hope you enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack I have to say, I'm particularly excited for this interview today because Rashid whose m- brand new book, which is so good. There's Only One Sin in Hollywood. And talk about like no sophomore slump. You always get worried with a s- an author's second book comes out that you're gonna be like, "Oh, God." And it is so on point. It is so fantastic. So congratulations and thank you so much for being here.

Rasheed Newson 2:01

Thank you for having me. Yeah. And thank you for, for your kind words about the book. I'm really excited about it coming out.

Brett Benner 2:06

I was thinking as I was taking notes, you were the very first author that I ever interviewed, and it was on Instagram, in an Instagram Live, and it was when, My Government Means to Kill Me had come out and I read that book, and I was like, "This thing is so incredible, I have to talk to him." And I had no concept of like what the fuck I was doing, like, you know. And I was just like w- w- and I reached out to you direct and I said, "Would you do an Instagram Live with me?" And you were like, "Sure." And I was so nervous but that was one of my favorite books of 2022. I couldn't believe what you were doing and how you were doing it, and I thought it was so amazing. And so to get this chance just to be with you again, I'm, I'm... it's, it's kind of sweet and I'm, I'm so happy. And to talk about, again, another just phenomenal book.

Rasheed Newson 2:53

I, I, I love that I was your first. I, that's, I, I'll just keep that forever. That's lovely.

Brett Benner 2:58

I also have to say about you, Rashid, you are, like should be a textbook example of an author who markets their book and does everything possible to get it in as many hands as possible. I mean, really, it, it is truly incredible to watch you hustle and in a way that I'd never seen before. And that you get out there and promote and will do what you need to do for your baby, and it's, it's a pretty remarkable thing. Like I think you could write a whole at least

Rasheed Newson 3:29

a

Brett Benner 3:29

sub stack article.

Rasheed Newson 3:30

Well, that, that exactly, that is my Hollywood experience. I mean, it, you know, the show doesn't count if the audience doesn't come. Yeah. And that, and that feeling of like, "I need to get this out there." I mean, we, even for, TV shows, you know, we have all those premieres and we travel the world and we do all those interviews because that's how it works. When I was one of the showrunners on Bel-Air, we went to a hotel, me and the cast, and for six hours we did those local spots you see- Oh all from affiliates. I mean, it was one after another. It was the same interview for three or four minutes for six hours. And I remember seeing the actors, especially the young ones, and they were like, "What just happened?" I said, "Show business."

Brett Benner 4:12

Yeah.

Rasheed Newson 4:12

That's what show business is. Yeah. Getting, just getting out there and telling everybody what you've made.

Brett Benner 4:19

100%, which makes it all very appropriate for the book we're gonna talk about now. So for our listeners and reviewers, do you have an elevator pitch, which feels very appropriate for this book, an elevator pitch for the book?

Rasheed Newson 4:30

I do. It is about the rise and fall of a Black closeted gay actor in the 1950s and '60s who's being built up to be the next Sidney Poitier, and then all of his, Hollywood glamour and stardom are stripped away from him when he decides that he's going to use his political voice.

Brett Benner 4:49

Mm-hmm. Fantastic.

Rasheed Newson 4:51

There isn't a genre- There isn't a genre for political coming-of-ages, but I think that's what I'd write.

Brett Benner 4:56

You have worked in Hollywood for, for a long time. Um, you know, you talked about LA- More than half my life now

Rasheed Newson 5:02

it seems. Yeah. It, it's been... Yeah.

Brett Benner 5:03

Yeah. So was a Hollywood novel something you had always had in the back of your head that you wanted to write?

Rasheed Newson 5:08

Yes, 'cause I try to write things that I have at least some working knowledge of. So My Government Needs to Kill Me, I had been steeped in the history of the emergence of the AIDS crisis and the fight against it. And with this, with Hollywood, I was like, well, you've been studying these people and this town for about a quarter century now, so maybe there's something you have to say. And I just sat with that, the idea of like, okay, I think it should be in the '50s and '60s in Hollywood, and I waited about a year before a story started to take shape.

Brett Benner 5:44

Wow. And what was the genesis of that? Like, what was the seed that said, "This is blossoming into something bigger"?

Rasheed Newson 5:50

Well, I feel like, there are a lot of great books about Hollywood. I never wanna feel like I'm treading somewhere that other people have already, they've already done a great job covering that, so leave it alone. And, and what sort of started bubbling up in me was the Douglas Sirk movies. Mm. Like, the, the, the yearning, the way that homosexuals are depicted in the '50s and '60s, which is, you know, they're really uneasy with their sexuality. They haven't fully accepted their sexuality. They're quiet, they're meek, they're tortured, they're miserable. And I thought, "Well, somebody inside the glass closet was having a good time." And what happens when you can show somebody who's like, "You know what? I think I've got the game licked," and then later started to realize, "Wait a minute, there's something about this whole situation that isn't right, and I think I wanna say something"? I wanted that evolution of, "I'm willing to play the game, and wait a minute, I think I wanna upend the game."

Brett Benner 6:48

I love this time period too, like, like you, and it reminds me of, the Hollywood Babylon or all- Yeah this whole time period. And it's also so interesting because earlier this year I was reading the Nicholas Boggs biography of, James Baldwin, and it's so crazy because so many of the, social events that take place- Yeah in the book intersects directly with this and all those same players. First of all, I I just have to say I love how you open this book. It's a first person narration from this character aaron Toussant. Because it reminded me almost of the opening of Sunset Boulevard, in terms of here's this thing, it's, you know that this thing is going to happen that is more than likely gonna be tragic- Yeah but let me rewind the reels and take you through what actually takes place. I loved how you framed it

Rasheed Newson 7:37

I mean, Sunset Boulevard is absolutely an inspiration. I mean, you can't find a better Hollywood movie. And I've loved it my entire life. And also, I wanted to focus the reader's attention. I always like to... There's certain things where I find that if you don't state them up front, people are sort of waiting and waiting and waiting for this thing to happen, and they're not necessarily paying attention to everything else you're trying to do. Um, and my editor used to kill me in one of the first drafts, the two leads, everybody was s- would say, "Oh, I was waiting for them to become lovers" And so when I went and did a revision very early on, I was like, "You know, we never slept together. Let me just tell you right up top." 'Cause then you're not waiting for it, and in this book, the same way, I s- I said, I mean, this is sort of like film noir. And so there is sort of a, you, you know that the doom is gonna set in at some point, and I, I didn't want people anticipating, "Is this gonna be it? Is this gonna be it? Is this gonna be it?" Sure. So I said, "Let's just tell you up front, and now you can just, you know that's happening. Let's take it from the top"

Brett Benner 8:38

Yeah. So, Aaron is your intro to this world. It w- was he who you started with, or was it Xavier?

Rasheed Newson 8:44

I started with the star. I'm sorry, everyone.

Brett Benner 8:46

Who is Xavier, yeah

Rasheed Newson 8:48

Like most projects, I was like, "Who's gonna be the star of this show?" And then I wanted someone, I mean, this is sort of where you get like almost a, a Great Gatsby. It's like, okay, I need a character who, one, will survive, and two, can be the outsider looking in.

Brett Benner 9:04

He's such an interesting character to me, Aaron is because, you know, you go very much into the, the kind of violence of his younger life with his father and his brother, and his own budding sexuality and kind of, his softness, in a way. But it's such an interesting thing because he goes into the Navy. Yeah. He goes into this uber world of masculinity, which I think is, like, so telling. But, you know, this man who ultimately becomes a fixer in Hollywood, who was, like, the ultimate fixer of his own life right from the beginning.

Rasheed Newson 9:36

Well, one of the things I needed in Aaron that would be different than Xavier the movie star was Aaron knows the penalty for what happens if you get caught. If I let too much of my homosexuality show, there are people who will try to, to really hurt me. And so that informs him throughout the rest of the story. Yeah. Um, Xavier thinks the world is, is on the brink of becoming more accepting. He sees the social progress and political progress, and he says, "We're on the right track and, you know, calm down. It's not like it used to be." Aaron never quite believes that.

Brett Benner 10:12

Yeah. And it's so interesting between the two of them because you, you, you think in some ways Aaron is operating from a place of fear in a lot of his life, a fear of repercussions, fear of so many things happening. And Xavier- At least from the beginning with Xavier, it's all, it isn't even as much about his sexuality in terms of he's about becoming that next big film star. Yeah. He is the alternative to Sidney Poitier.

Rasheed Newson 10:41

He has dreams. He has dreams. Yeah. And, and, and I mean, we talk about dreamers. Y- you, you also have to be a little delusional. I mean, you have to s- I mean, dreaming means you, you see something that isn't there. You don't even see the path, but you know I'm getting up this mountain, and that sort of thinking is really extraordinary. It, it does have its downsides. I mean, I'm always sort of, um... It's sort of interesting when you see celebrities or stars and people suddenly say, "What, do they think the rules don't apply to them?" Right. And I wanna say, "Yes." That's a pretty informed opinion. If you s- if you come from a small little town and you decide you're gonna be this famous whatever, and it happens for you, the odds against that were, is more than a million to one. So of course you believe you can defy the odds. Your, your life experience has been based on doing just that.

Brett Benner 11:35

Yeah, 100%. Do you think Xavier is reckless?

Rasheed Newson 11:43

Ultimately, yes. But his, but from his point of view, bold moves have worked for him. You know? I mean, he, he, he gets found out essentially, he gets discovered, by just attending a party for George Kukor that he's not even invited to by George Kukor. He doesn't know the host at all, but he puts on his little blue bathing suit and he goes, hoping that someone will just know, notice how stunning he looks, and he's right. You know? I mean, that idea of I may not be qualified for this, I may not be ready for this, but I feel it's meant for me, that is what's guiding almost every artist you meet, and it's really hard to turn off

Brett Benner 12:23

You have to have it. I mean, they have to have it.

Rasheed Newson 12:26

You have to believe. You have to look, you have to walk into this room, especially think of an audition. I mean, Lord knows you've been to a thousand auditions. You walk into this room and there are a dozen other people at least who look almost like you, have better credits. You know them, they've got a name. You're not even first in line. You know, the people in the room are gonna be tired, ready to go to lunch, exhausted. They've heard these pages, Right you know, over and over again. And you believe you're gonna go in and you're gonna make a couple choices that are different than what all these other trained actors did, and it's gonna stand out and you're gonna get the role. And everybody in the room believes they've got that magic moment, and one of them is right.

Brett Benner 13:11

Right.

Rasheed Newson 13:11

And if you're right about that enough, you believe it's, it's your superpower. You believe it's always gonna happen for you, because until it stops happening for you, it does always happen for you.

Brett Benner 13:24

Right, and it's that drug. I heard a great story once. A friend of mine, was telling me Evan Rachel Wood, had auditioned for Interview with a Vampire back in the day to play Claudia, the little girl. And, so she went through, you know, multiple callbacks, which finally ended with her reading with Tom Cruise, and it was between she and Kirsten Dunst. And so her father, who was also an acting teacher and an actor in North Carolina, he came to her the day that they called and said they're gonna go with Kirsten, and he came to her and he said, "Honey, I want you to know they went with the other girl." And without missing a beat, she just stood up and said, "Well, they just made a terrible mistake," and walked out of the room.

Rasheed Newson 14:10

Oh, yeah. I mean, you better believe. I mean, it's the only way to survive the rejection, that they don't know what they're doing, they're gonna regret this. There's something meant, that something better that's meant for me. Like you have to- Yeah recover so quickly. I, I mean, I... We talk about actors and writers, everybody in Hollywood. For people outside the business, aren't you devastated when you don't get a job, when you interview and you don't get it? How many times has that happened to you in your life? Maybe a handful. Like, they're not, I mean, especially the interview, most people, like maybe they don't respond to the resume, but most of us have not been to three interviews in a day, which is like- Right

Brett Benner 14:53

it's like just- Or eight during pilots, the old pilot season, right?

Rasheed Newson 14:55

Eight, and to miss them all. Yeah. To miss them all, I mean,, you have to have a very strong ego, or in, in my case, a very bad memory. I mean- My survival mechanism is, like, I, I mean, sh- generally s- sometimes they'll say, "Well, who did you meet with?" And I, my joke is I don't learn their names until I'm getting paid.

Brett Benner 15:16

Right, which is

Rasheed Newson 15:17

fair. It's

Brett Benner 15:19

such a painful- Yeah.

Rasheed Newson 15:20

Who did I meet with? I don't know, those people over there." I, I'm, I'm, I am, I try to put these things behind me and, and literally my writing partner will say, "Well, we've met them before when we didn't get the such and such." And I look at him like, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "No, no, in 2019." I go, "Oh, okay. Sure. I believe you, I just don't remember."

Brett Benner 15:38

See, that, that's what a good assistant is for, to be able to literally whisper in your ear beforehand, "You met this person here, and this is what it was on, and their names are, and you talked about X, Y, Z."

Rasheed Newson 15:47

Yeah. My- Mm-hmm the, the title of my bio will be It's Good to See You. 'Cause I never, I definitely- That's, that's

Brett Benner 15:53

right.

Rasheed Newson 15:55

I don't- That's

Brett Benner 15:55

right

Rasheed Newson 15:56

cause also, I mean, this is the other thing, the, the parasocial relationships where I see people and I'm like, "Well, did we work together?"

Brett Benner 16:04

Right.

Rasheed Newson 16:04

Are we following each other? Are we mutuals? Or am I just a fan of yours and I heard you on a podcast, so I think I know you?"

Brett Benner 16:11

That's right.

Rasheed Newson 16:12

It's all, it's really, it's good to see you.

Brett Benner 16:14

And it's, and it's, yes. And it's changed so dramatically from the days of when it was just a parasocial relationship with some celebrity who you're watching, which now so many people are in these parasocial relationships. I mean, you know, ta- taking the Bookstagram world, for example, there's so many people who I feel like I know so well, And I remember having the first experience of having someone come visit or going to see someone, and I remember my husband saying, "So wait, you've never met this person in person?" And I was like, "No, but they're fine. They're fi- I mean, they're fine."

Rasheed Newson 16:43

Yeah.

Brett Benner 16:44

And thinking, okay, well, yeah, I understand that completely.

Rasheed Newson 16:47

Um- I won't tell the actor's name, but I once saw an actor just at a social event, and I was walking over, and I was very like, "Oh!" I was like very happy, and as I was approaching, I remember, oh, we didn't cast him. He,

Brett Benner 17:00

we,

Rasheed Newson 17:00

we called him in a couple times, and I had a really... I felt I had a good conversation connection, but ultimately we didn't cast him. And so I'm realizing he may not be as happy to see me as I'm to see him.

Brett Benner 17:11

Right. Right. And then you would have had to so backpedal and be like, "You were so good. You know, there was a lot of decisions that had to be made." Yeah. The- Yeah good to see you is per- 'cause I get that too so many times with people coming in, and there's been plenty of times when I've said, "Oh, nice to meet you. We've met," and then I feel like just dirt. You know? Just dirt. Oh yeah, they, they let

Rasheed Newson 17:29

you know.

Brett Benner 17:30

Yeah.

Rasheed Newson 17:31

They let you know. So I just, yeah.

Brett Benner 17:33

You're right. You're, you're totally on it. One of the things that you do so fantastic, and you did it in your first book as well, and I remember one of the reasons that the first book just came so alive is you incorporate all these real people with your fictional characters. And I was one of those people that as I was going through the first book, I kept like looking up and thinking, "Wait, this is a real person." And by the way, it started to happen here too because there were plenty of these people where I was like, "Okay, this is a real person," and most prevalently Diane Carroll- Yeah f- is featured in the book, um- I love

Rasheed Newson 18:07

her

Brett Benner 18:07

but yeah. And this seems to be now your, wheelhouse, of, of doing this. And so my question becomes, how do you choose? Like how do you decide, "Okay, I'm gonna put Diahann Carroll in this"? And then also, I'm just, I'm just curious, how do you avoid legality of any of it?

Rasheed Newson 18:26

Well, I, I'll take the second one first. How do we avoid leg- legality? Yeah. One is, I try to, if I'm really gonna focus somebody, you pick people who are dead. Um- Yeah. it's hard to defame the dead. But also I do, I try, I try very hard not to have anyone who's real doing anything outside of their known character. So Sidney Poitier, I'm not gonna portray him as a cannibal. But I am going to, I am gonna talk about the fact that he and Diahann Carroll were having an affair because they both talked about their nine-year affair, uh, later in their lives. So I try to be honest in that way. I try not to give anybody a drug habit unless they went to drug rehab and we know they had a drug problem. so that I think helps with a lot of the legality. And then it's, it's actually I think rather unavoidable putting a lot of the people in the book that I wanna put in. You know, with My Government Needs to Kill Me, I wanna tell the story of someone who is part of the first wave of ACT UP. Well, it's gonna be pretty hard to, miss Larry Kramer in that story.

Brett Benner 19:28

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rasheed Newson 19:29

And in fact, if I put in a standby, people would come, "Hey, is this supposed to be Larry Kramer?" And, and you kind of look like you're dodging it. And so in this case I know I wanna do something in 1950s and '60s, I've got a rising Black actor. He has to have some sort of relationship or rivalry with Sidney Poitier. Yeah. And again, I didn't wanna put in a stand-in I feel like stand-ins, it's like it's the worst of all worlds 'cause everybody's sort of like, "Well, I'm thinking it's Sidney Poitier," but you didn't say it so you don't even get the fun of that. You have to kinda conjure something else up. So I try to put all these people in. And the thing I wanted to show about this era is all of these actors, especially the prominent ones, found themselves having to be political, having to talk about the, the, you know, the civil rights movement and the other political struggles of their day. Which was, which was something that was emerging in Hollywood, and Hollywood wasn't dealing with well.

Brett Benner 20:22

Yeah, that- And

Rasheed Newson 20:22

maybe still isn't dealing with well

Brett Benner 20:24

No, absolutely not. It's interesting 'cause we were, I was talking earlier about the, Boggs biography of James Baldwin. And it, it was so into that, of all of these people, and Lena Horne and- Mm-hmm Poitier and all of them getting together. Shirley MacLaine. Yep. Yes. And discussing these exact things of what is happening in the country and how it's affecting them. It's an interesting thing because I don't know how, Well, like you just said, how anything doesn't become political, and you'll hear people say, "Well, I don't want these stars to give their political opinions. They just, you know, that's not what they're being paid for." And yet my comment to that is, well, it is a little bit because they have that platform, and they are speaking about things that are going to affect them and affect their peers, and their friends, and their lovers, and all of the things. So h- h- how can it not be?

Rasheed Newson 21:11

One of the stories, and it's, it's it's a true story that's in the book, is about Nat King Cole, who at one point in his political journey said, "There's nothing I can do about the audience being segregated. I'm just a singer, and I come on stage and do my business, and that's the business of the theater. I'm, I'm sorry, I can't help." And then he was attacked on stage, and he got a letter from some of others in the civil rights movement that said, "Do you see now that the people who, the bigots make no distinction between those of us who fight in the struggle and those of us who believe we can remain neutral? You're in this fight whether you want to be or not." And that's the reality of what it is if you belong to a group that is facing oppression. You may think, "Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a writer who just happens to be gay. I'm a writer who just happens to be Black." I'm sorry. That isn't a position that's going to keep you out of the fray. And so since you're in it, how about you pick up a weapon and get to work?

Brett Benner 22:17

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Going back to the Diahann, the Diahann Carroll of it all for a moment-

Rasheed Newson 22:23

She, I mean- Um- She, by the way, I mean, this is something that's funny about writing, is I a- again, like well before I knew I was doing this book and, and gonna use Diahann Carroll in this way, I'd read her bio- her memoir, The Legs Are the Last to Go. I'd seen her masterclass. I mean, I'd been fascinated with her. And, and, and I really at one point was like, "What is happening here? Why am I w- reading all this and, and, and watching all this stuff about Diahann Carroll?" And, but I know myself well enough to go, "Oh, it'll come in handy someday" And then she showed up in this book and it's been great I know myself well enough to know that even though I didn't have a project for Diahann Carroll in mind, I said doing all this research will come in handy eventually. I mean, there are times where you just start consuming something as a researcher, and you don't know why you're interested in it, and I find that nothing is wasted. Eventually you will find a place in the garden- For something to sprout to plant these seeds and for this thing to grow.

Brett Benner 23:24

And you are someone who you've said before, you are a researcher. You love research. You love, I assume, history as well.

Rasheed Newson 23:31

Yes, and I'm, I'm terribly inefficient in it. Like, I, I read or watch way, way, way more than I need to in order to then get a sliver. It would help my life so much if I could be more surgical, and I've just accepted that I'm not, that I'm just a maximalist. I'm gonna read this entire thing, and ultimately will take one line out of it, and that's just my process.

Brett Benner 23:56

What I love that you've constructed, and it's this interesting, like, Hollywood relationship between she and Xavier, where she understands who he is, and for all intents and purposes wants to help him out in terms of creating a cover, and it smacks of all these relationships in Hollywood over time, one of which you reference in the end, which is L- Monty Clift and Elizabeth Taylor.

Rasheed Newson 24:20

Yeah, that's the mo- that's the model for me. I mean, my understanding is that when they were at the height of their beauty, they would sit next to each other in front of a vanity mirror and just look at each other. I mean, they'd just They would just, they would just luxuriate in their, in their shared beauty in front of a mirror. And I don't blame them.

Brett Benner 24:42

Uh, no. Oh, no. At all. Yeah. No. I was obsessed... Talk about early indicators. I was obsessed with Monty Clift. And I, and I was just like, not only was he so unbelievably beautiful, as obviously was she, but was such an incredible actor. I mean- Incredible. And, and the whole tragedy of it, which again is like things to pull upon obviously, but how young he died and, the way that his career kind of descended after that horrible car accident that kind of- Mm-hmm disfigured his face, which you reference. Like, you talk about how he's-

Rasheed Newson 25:19

Yeah

Brett Benner 25:20

you know, wants his face changed in the book. But I loved their relationship, meaning now I'm back to Diane and Xavier, and that's truly what this reminded me of, is those two, um, first and foremost. Well,

Rasheed Newson 25:30

I wanted that too. I wanted to talk about that there were, there was a way of existing that, you know, people of color and queer people have found ways of existing even under horrific oppression, where they still found love and fulfillment and success and friendship. It wa- you know, that is not to, to... I mean, I'm not soft-pedaling how bad the oppression is. The oppression was deadly and horrible, and yet I, I want to pay attention to the resilience of our spirit and the fact that even in that we can find love and happiness and joy. We have to carve it out. It's not gonna look like everybody else's, but it can be done, and I, I love that about my communities.

Brett Benner 26:14

Yeah. It's creating spaces. And like you just said, I think it's finding the joy within those spaces. And even when you hear about all these stories, you know, you, you look at Rock Hudson, for example, of that kind of very tragic end for Rock Hudson, and yet I got invited to a dinner one night, and this is the most insane evening, and it was at Linda Lavin's house in the Valley. And- Oh my God. I was... It was Linda Lavin on one end, and I'm seated next to Joe Mantegna is next to me on the left, and I... It was one of these moments in your life where you're like, "This is special, and I'm never gonna be able to... This is never gonna be reproduced, and I just am gonna sit there and, like, take all this in." And Joe was talking about Rock Hudson and how when he first came to Hollywood, and Rock Hudson invited him over, and they used to hang out, and Rock would be with his longtime companion. But- It was just this amazing, like, veil kind of getting lifted to see what was happening kind of behind the scenes. But everything you spoke of was what I've, what we're talking about, which is creating these places of joy and trust and having people in your life, which Xavier certainly has with her, of people who you feel, "I'm safe with, and I can be safe with, and you will make me feel safe," and vice versa. So-

Rasheed Newson 27:39

Yeah, I th- and I, and I, I wanna say it's a two-way street. I mean, what was- Yeah I mean, what was, I think, good for Xavier and Diane is, you know, she accepted him and unlike maybe, uh, most of the heterosexual men she was encountering, he wasn't trying to pounce on her. They c- they both- Right felt very safe together, uh, in- Yeah in what could be a predatory environment for-

Brett Benner 28:03

Yeah

Rasheed Newson 28:03

for both of them.

Brett Benner 28:04

Right. Which generally seems to be such a dynamic between straight women and gay men and those friendships because there, that element of it is removed. It's such an interesting time that we're in right now at this moment, because you have people- Yeah like Jonathan Bailey, box office-wise was 2025's biggest star, right? He was in the biggest movies- Mm-hmm of the year. You have people like Matt Bomer coming out. Just, I picked out these two particular- Yeah people. But in terms of Black versus white, because there are clearly, you have, like, Jeremy Pope, who I just think is so fricking- Yeah extraordinary, who while not advertising his sexuality, is certainly not hiding his sexuality either. Or someone like Justice Smith, who is kind of this new charge of young actors. Yeah. Do you think there's a double standard there between Black and white? And do you think it's possible to thrive, not get pigeonholed, or not get then placed in a rut because people think, "Well, they can't be playing straight. They can't be doing this, that, or the other"?

Rasheed Newson 29:02

I think that, I think there's a, a strong double standard there. I think there's a double standard even among white queer people in terms of how femme or masculine you present. I think the audience, or at least we are told, that, uh, the audience has a very limited set of criterias it will accept in a hero, and they tend to fall along lines that favor anyone who's... The closer you can get to straight white male, the better off you'll be. And if you can sort of pass, that, that's good for you. I, I think we've got a lot of work to be done. I'm not sure, it's interesting, I'm not sure it's a goal worth anyone twisting themselves into knots to achieve. Mm. I don't know that in order to satisfy the masses, what you would have to become would be all that interesting to someone like me. So- Interesting while I want representation, uh, as much as I can get it, I want people to be able to be the kind of artist they wish to be. Maybe it's because I'm now in my middle age. Whoever they're like, "Hey, this is the star for everyone," those day- that, that person just doesn't captivate me as much, and prob- in fairness, probably never did. I mean, I've always liked the sharper, spikier characters who may not necessarily be at the center of the story.

Brett Benner 30:26

Yeah.

Rasheed Newson 30:27

That's... Wait, what was the second, what was the second question?

Brett Benner 30:29

No, I was asking about the- Oh, it was a double standard. It's double no, I was asking about the double standard, and I actually said, do you, you know, do you think there is a career potentially for people that, that, that isn't relegated to like, "Okay, you've come out. Now you're gonna get offered every gay role possible and... but, but that's it 'cause we don't see the other"?

Rasheed Newson 30:48

I, I think there are places for that. I mean, it, it's also like, you know, I'm a television writer, I'm a novelist, and now because of the way everything is fracturing, I'd better just learn how to write in all the spaces. Hmm. And I think actors have known that long before anyone else. So, you know, I'm thinking of, I believe, like Andrew Scott is someone who can do movies, do television, and do plays, and is able to sort of slip into roles. I've seen him play, you know, every sexuality, uh, uh- Yeah out, out, out in the land, I've seen that man play, and he does well. Is he ever going to be a hundred million dollar opening weekend movie star? I don't know. I hope he doesn't lose sleep over it. I hope he's not- I hope he's not... I mean, that'd be great. It would be great if it happens, but, uh, you know, I, I think there are much more interesting goals. I mean, one of the things I keep trying to focus on as we, you know, deal with the times we're in is I just think we need a lot, we need a lot of new definitions of success. When I think of, like, my book, you know, there was a day you were like, "God, I wanna be at the top of the New York Times Best Sellers list, and I want a movie made, and I want this, and I hope it sells a million copies." And I think my idea of, of, of success now is I want this book to reach the readers who will appreciate it and who it will speak to. Some of those other things might happen, but they aren't at the top of my list. And I think if you are in show business, you are recalibrating what you want out of this career. And I hope it's the fulfillment of your talent, and not necessarily the old accolades and old standards of success that, that dominated and dictated how people acted generations ago. S-

Brett Benner 32:38

the other thing is back in those days, there was so much more mystique around especially movie stars, right? I mean, that, you talk about the whole idea of Palm Springs exploding because Sinatra and all these people needed a place to go outside of the kind of lines of Los Angeles where they could do the things they wanted to do, whether it was drink, gamble, have sex, all of the things, without being under that light, right? Yeah. But, and now we're living in a time where the separation between... We're talking about this parasocial thing earlier, has gotten so much more blurred, and people live out on social media, whether it's celebrities or whatever, whether it's intentional or they're being pushed to do it to promote something. And also- We're pushing boundaries in terms of sexuality, gender, all of these things as these younger generations are coming up. Everything begins to get blurred when you can have a male celebrity wearing a dress, whether he's heterosexual or gay or whatever. So I think it's bringing up a lot of interesting conversations, kind of about a construct and breaking those constructs of what it is to be queer, straight, masculine, feminine, all of the things.

Rasheed Newson 33:47

We still haven't decided what we think the stars owe us.

Brett Benner 33:51

Yeah.

Rasheed Newson 33:51

Interesting. What do they owe us of themselves? How much of themselves do they owe us? And sometimes we're-- we feel like they're oversharing. Sometimes we demand them to speak up so that we can have a sense of authenticity. Sometimes we demand they speak up because we feel they're dodging the political questions of the day. And it's, it's really hard for them to figure out how much to give and how much to share. Yeah. The other thing I feel bad about is like, you know, so many stars start so early. I mean, they're so young, and they don't realize that they're opening the door to aspects of their lives that they won't be able to shut later. You know, it-- You know, if you're 19 and you're dating your co-star in a film, it might seem really cute and fine to tell everybody, "Oh yeah, we're dating, and we met, and we fell in love," and da, da, da. And then when there's a nasty divorce five years later, you're like, "Hey, could you all respect our privacy?" That isn't gonna work. I mean, I can't get over like, you know, Architectural Digest has the thing where the celebrities show us their homes.

Brett Benner 34:53

Right.

Rasheed Newson 34:53

And I'm like, "They're literally taking us into their bedroom."

Brett Benner 34:57

Right. Yeah.

Rasheed Newson 34:58

And, I mean, and so it's gonna be hard to blow the whistle and, and call foul later when you're like, "How did all these people get into my private life?" It's like, well, honey, you let them in. But what no one tells you is once you've opened it up, it's really hard to shut it down later.

Brett Benner 35:12

Yeah.

Rasheed Newson 35:13

So, you know-

Brett Benner 35:13

It's a

Rasheed Newson 35:13

Pandora's

Brett Benner 35:14

box.

Rasheed Newson 35:15

Yeah, and it, and it feels absolutely fine to do when you're in your late teens or early 20s. You feel like, "I got nothing to hide. What's the problem?" Well, other things may come into your life later that you're like, "You know, I actually don't wanna go through drug rehab in front of the entire world. I don't want to have to talk about this divorce or my medical problems or whatever is bedeviling me with everybody here." But that is sort of the relationship you've established. It's really difficult, and it's why a lot of them don't see it coming.

Brett Benner 35:46

And on top of that, longevity and sustaining and, and being able to sustain all of that.

Rasheed Newson 35:53

And when you don't have a private cup, they'll like, "Well, what are you doing in your personal life that we can keep your name alive?" Yeah.

Brett Benner 35:59

Yeah.

Rasheed Newson 36:00

That's what's hap- I mean, one of the things about the old stars is they made movies so, so often, they barely had personal lives. They married other stars. Yeah. 'Cause who else are you gonna see? Well, now, there's so much time, you know. You go a year, year or two between movies or something coming out. If you wanna keep your name alive, boy, you... I hope you've got a really interesting workout routine. I hope you've got some hobby you can modify. You know? You- they start picking through your... Like, by the way, I, I had to do for the book, for book publicity, you know, they're like, "Oh, you could do these guest essays." And it's like, "Could you tell me something really horrific that's happened to you? And, you know, can you get it to us in about 1,000 words?" It turns out I'm not terribly good at it. Like, that taking a piece of yourself in order to continue the relationship, to try to establish longevity or to establish a connection with the audience, that's what we're asking almost everybody in the public sphere to do, and you can only give so many pieces of yourself away before it starts to hurt.

Brett Benner 37:04

Yeah. Before we go, y- you had said in a, a previous interview that My Government Means to Kill Me is a call to action. How do you view this?

Rasheed Newson 37:16

What I think about this is I want people to interrogate what we want and what we expect from public figures. I feel like the, the discussion around it has gotten pretty smug, where there's one side saying, "Well, why can't they just set up- shut up and dance?" And the other side wants them to give us their political takes on every political station of the day. I think people should be involved in advocacy work. I think they should use their political voice. I think they're allowed to decide what topics they want to use and champion. Mm. It's kind of impossible for everybody to be in- well informed and articulate about everything. So you're gonna tend to find people speaking up about the two or three things that they have direct personal connections to, and that seems natural to me, and that seems good. What I worry about sometimes is that we're engaged in a debate where we never take a breath and say, "Let's just put all the pieces on the board and think about this." And so that's what I'm hoping can kind of come from this book while people are being entertained by the love story and the film noir of it all.

Brett Benner 38:27

Well, Rasheed, congratulations. It is... It's just fantastic. Go out, everybody, get the book. Buy independent if you are able to buy independent. Congratulations on knocking it out of the park.

Rasheed Newson 38:39

Thank you.

Brett Benner 38:41

Thank you again, Rashid. And if you liked today's episode or other episodes of Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. Also, what would be really helpful to me is if you can give the show five stars and leave a review on your podcast platform of choice. All of these things are really helpful in terms of getting the show to new listeners so I can continue to bring you conversations like this one. I'll be back next week with another episode, and until then, you can always find me on Instagram, YouTube, and Substack at Brett's Book Stack. And as always, thanks for listening