Djamel White, All Them Dogs

Brett sits down with writer Djamel White to discuss his debut novel, 'All Them Dogs'. They talk about early reading and Roddy Doyle's Fighting Words, gangster inspiration, toxic masculinity and feeling like an outsider. Tattoos, gender roles, and the explosive collision of desire and fear. 

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https://djamelwhite.com/

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https://www.instagram.com/djamelwhitewriter/

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Transcript

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Brett Benner 0:00

Hey, everybody. It's Brett Benner, and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I am sitting down with author Jamel White to talk about his new book, All Them Dogs. I loved this thing. It is electric. It is thrilling. It is sexy. It will keep you on the edge of your seat about a gangster who returns home and what happens in the most unexpected ways. A little bit about Jamel. He's an Irish writer and editor. He earned an MFA in creative writing from University College Dublin and was fiction editor for the inaugural issue of the literary and art journal Profiles. He's worked as an assistant for New Island Books and has managed one of Ireland's leading tattoo shops. So I hope you'll enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I'm so happy to be sitting down today with Jamel White for his debut novel, which is just I don't know why I'm suddenly slipping into a foreign accent, but I wanna be like, "It's bangers." A- All Them Dogs. It is it's just so fantastic, I just, I couldn't put this thing down, and I was on the edge of my seat, and it has so exceeded any expectations I had. So congratulations, and thank you so much for being here today.

Djamel White 1:21

Thank you. Thank you so much, and thanks for having

Brett Benner 1:24

You have such a fascinating background. Like, your life that preceded this, writing this book Just working backwards, the fact that, like, casually it says in the end and has worked in a tattoo shop. I loved that. But going back from the beginning with you, I'm so curious 'cause I know, you know, y- you grew up in a home where you said there weren't any readers, and you weren't really exposed to- To reading much. So when did that start to happen for you and and your love of books? I'm so curious.

Djamel White 1:56

Yeah So it would have been, like, early in my schooling, so what we call first class, where we would have been, like, aged six to eight, I think I'm... I had a teacher who would read to us at the end of every class, 'cause it's like elementary school, we're in the same day. But yeah, we got like 10 minutes of Roald Dahl at the end, and I became kind of intoxicated by that. I really, really used to enjoy that. And then quickly discovered-- I mean, 'cause that's kind of the crucial stage where they really, the focus of the whole year is really getting you reading on your own. And when I realized that it came quite easily to me and that I could do this on my own, that's when the love really started to develop. And of course, you know, being from a home of, of people that aren't readers, I think seeing me with a book was so exciting and impressive to family members that, like, really encouraged me to want to keep doing it. And, it was kind of the first thing... It's funny now thinking back, but, it was kind of the first thing that I was good at was reading And so I kind of quickly assimilated it as, as, as a personality trait,

Brett Benner 3:07

Interesting. Then w-when did it start to come to fruition that you're like, "I wanna do this. I wanna, I wanna start to write"?

Djamel White 3:12

Oh, I mean, kind of immediately after. Like, we would be set these exercises where we would, you know, y- you, you get a list of vocabulary that you'd have to learn off and turn it into sentences, and sentences were a little bit longer than sentences, and they became paragraphs and, you know, nobody said stop So I kept going and yeah, it was-- I had great fun with it. It was a real escape for me. So it was always there as something that I wanted to do, you know? So it's kind of been a lifetime in the making to this point, even though I am still quite young. Uh, it feels like it, it's been a very long journey

Brett Benner 3:51

I was looking at your-- just an overview of your biography. How much you've lived in that time and kind of what you've traversed is really pretty incredible. You ended up going to, Fighting Words, which is the Roddy Doyle created, writing program and that was pretty instrumental for you too, correct?

Djamel White 4:10

Absolutely, yeah. So I ended up-- I went into secondary school or high school, as you might call it, and left just before the end of my final year, so I never graduated. And I went to an alternative kind of learning program, which was really, the whole point of it was to equip you for work skills. It wasn't academic, but there were, it did give you kind of enough of a qualification to, to go to another course that might eventually feed into university. So came out of, I was coming out of there and there was an opportunity for me to do some linked work experience, and that's when I started volunteering with Fighting Words, which is Roddy Doyle's organization, which he borrowed heavily or was inspired by Dave Eggers' organization in San Francisco called 826 Valencia. So it's a similar workshop program there where, you know, you bring kids in from schools oftentimes from, underprivileged areas, but, you know, not al- it's not always the case. And you do creative writing workshops with them, and it's just a day's workshop. It's a couple of hours. You write a story together, uh, as a group, and then you go off and you work one-on-one with the kids to kind of develop it into their own endings, and they go home with a publication. So I volunteered as a mentor there. I was just, like I was only 18, already dropped out of school, so I was, not very confident in myself or what I could contribute to society or kind of what my footing in the world was. Really, really just the type of environment that just pulled me out of that shell and gave me responsibilities and were very welcoming and really just made me feel a sense of belonging that I hadn't felt before. So yeah, that was crucial for me just, just to know that, like, there are spaces out there and there are roles out there that I have something to bring to. And it kind of made me a little bit more excited for, for what's to come, and I think that kind of sense of, sense of self or sense of purpose that I got an inkling of there kind of stayed with me then when I, when I went on to do my undergrad, uh, degree in creative writing and, you know, just familiarization with the scene and the, the work, the idea of workshopping and just that kind of sense of self-possession I think was really crucial to me. I, I was 21 when I started my undergrad, so, uh, I think, I don't-- I wouldn't have made it through college if I had have been any younger. I think it just, it balanced out really well in terms of me just growing up a little bit. Not, not a whole lot, but just a little bit.

Brett Benner 6:42

Right. Did you find, Like, growing up with your friends, did you feel a sense of separation, and did you feel a sense differentness because I c- I, I, I don't know what your, your friend's group were like, but I always imagine if you're thinking, well, I, writing, it's creative and h-how was that for you in terms of, was there a feeling of feeling different, I guess?

Djamel White 7:01

Yeah, uh, kind of always. And, and for dif- different reasons and different friend groups. I mean, I moved around a bit as a kid, and I spent a good portion of my childhood and most of my teens in the kind of North Midlands of Ireland, which is very rural, very sports-centric, very, um, agriculturally centric as well. So the main kind of epicenter of community there is the Gaelic Games which I didn't appreciate as a young person. But yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't a sporty kid. And therefore then, you know, as we got older and that kind of became a more central focus of, of a lot of young people's lives, there w- I didn't have... there was no place for me in that. Um, so yeah, there was a, there was, I was on the outskirts from, from the start as a kind of more nerdy type of kid. But, you know, then, you know, coming into teenagers years, you start experimenting with, smoking some things and drinking some things and, finding... It's also trying to find a kind of a new clan to fit in through that. And then oddly enough, then as you get older, that's what you start to have in common with some of the people you had nothing in common with before. And then I moved back then to Dublin when I was, which is where I'm from originally, when I was 17. And that's when I dropped out of school and, and went through the, the kind of path I just talked about.

Brett Benner 8:17

Fascinating. Well, for our, for our viewers or for our listeners, Do you have an elevator pitch of "All Them Dogs"?

Djamel White 8:24

Okay. All Them Dogs is the story of a young Irish gangster who has returned to his hometown and he's ready to reinstate himself in the gangland that he's left behind. And in order to do that, he involves himself with the enforcer of one of the area's most notorious crime lords, and what develops there is more than a partnership and a little bit less than a full-blown romance. But either way, it complicates things as he's trying to come back up in the world.

Brett Benner 9:02

Oh, God, just hearing you say it, it's so good. I ju- like, okay, first of all, I need to ask you, are you somebody who was into or, or are into mob stories or gangsters or...

Djamel White 9:15

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think you can probably see the inspiration. There was a show one of Ireland's kind of most premier TV shows called Love/Hate and I recommend it if you can get your hands on it. Now it is like love/hate. It's kind of fly by the seat of your pants filmmaking for the first couple of seasons. Like they're making do with the equipment that they have. But, uh, in terms of characters and in terms of I thought how well it depicted a very familiar gangland I thought was outstanding. And I, I lo- I love that show and it was a huge inspiration. But also I loved The Sopranos and The Wire. Uh, one of my favorite films, funnily enough, is Lehane. That was another huge inspiration. I just think there's, um, there's a lot that's in-- Th- there's a lot that's really interesting about characters that live on the razor's edge and when it comes to relationships, it's a really interesting and narrow space to explore them because there's, there's so much betrayal and there's so much self I mean, everyone's kind of just looking out for themselves, you know? So where your relationships fall on that when, your name has to be protected in such a way and Yeah, everything is on the line, and I just-- I love that. I love that vacuum for relationships.

Brett Benner 10:30

What I loved about this is it's kind of like a domino effect, and it starts, and at first you're just kind of trying to get a sense of n-not just Tony, but everyone in h-his surrounding areas, right? Because, because he's coming back to something after being away for so long. And so that's kind of the fun originally, and it's almost like you're seeing things through his perspective of, all right, there's this person, then there's this person, but we don't quite know what all the relationships are yet. But once that's kind of established and then the fucking shit hits the fan, it is such a Oh my God, I, and I went back and forth between the book and the audio, and there were segments on that audio, which is, like, the best when an audiobook is, like, on point, and it all speaks to the writing, of course, that I was literally gripping the steering wheel, and I was like oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God." And then I'd have to get home and, like, flip back. And that's just a testament to your writing. But God, it was-- Tony's such an amazing character to me because I have to tell you, like, he does some truly despicable things, right? And yet I just wanted to give the guy a hug. Well, first of all, I, it, it's like this whole idea and, you know, it, it's been talked about so much, but I had to look it up because I was like I need to get an exact kind of description of what this is," kind- the idea of toxic masculinity. And it said it refers to restrictive, socially constructed norms that define traditional manhood through strength, emotional repression, and dominance, which could lead to negative outcomes like violence, poor mental health, and misogyny. Key traits include extreme self-reliance, suppressing emotions, and power over others, and enforcing gender roles. So much of this happens, and then you go and create this incredible Achilles' heel for him which where did that come from? Like, what made you get into this and think, "Oh, I'm gonna mix this up and, uh, potentially make this guy queer or queer-leaning at least"?

Djamel White 12:37

Well, you've, you've put it really perfectly uh, in it, in it being his Achilles heel. It's this kind of beautiful foil, and it's an ironic foil that I think, you know, lends itself narratively to be, really en- enticing to write about. But also wh- when I think of these spaces and, and just my own experiences, hanging out with, with other men is that I think Scorsese said it really well when he was talking about "Taxi Driver" with Rob- Roger Ebert, and he said,, "The best man is the one who can kill you." And there's this element of fear and desire on, on who's kind of on top and the hegemony in a group of males. And, you know, y- you take that one step further. It's like I, I, you know, I'm afraid of him, yet I want to be him, and yet he's also my enemy. And it's, it's just-- It, it just felt like when I have these two men in this small space, which is, Tony's car, it just felt inevitable that there was going to be this kind of spark there. Originally writing it when it was originally a short story that I was writing and Tony had come back from England and people were on his back, and he knew that he was being hunted, and the conditions were that, you know, if he was on a job with an enforcer of another gang, he was pretty much safe. So then you have this element of like, I'm in a car with you, and I'm self-reliant, and I'm a self-made man, but I need you to keep me safe. And there was something there. I just knew that was something really, really interesting about these two guys to explore.

Brett Benner 14:01

Yeah, it's an interesting thing too because, when I first read about it, and I was like, I was expecting something different. And I think I was expecting something that leaned so much into the queerness of it and it doesn't. And this is what I, really loved. And I also would say that just for our listeners because it's a it's a much more subtly nuanced thing, right? Even, you know, there's been talk, I know, pre-publication about, oh, the sex or whatever, and I didn't even feel... I will just say for myself, it's more erotic than sexual. That's what I felt like. And it was more about power and also the submission to power, and whether or not... and Tony has a, a, an amazing line where he says, and this is in relation to having sex with Darren Flute, who is the guy that he's working with. He says, "The pain was his to take and not Flute's to give." And just that line alone seemed like such a crystallization of the way that Tony views this. And also the not wanting to give away his either power or his masculinity or his vulnerability. And I think he struggles with that so much of being vulnerable but also wanting to stay in control, right?

Djamel White 15:23

Yeah, I think that's the dream reading, so I'm so pleased to, to hear you say those things. Because yeah people might go in expecting this to be, you know, a kind of heated romance, a forbidden love, a kind of Romeo Juliet situation. And you know, I, you know, I toyed with this idea of these scenes where they almost get found out and they have to... But it's, uh, uh, it's not true to their, to either of their characters for them to let this blossom into what it could potentially be. It's, it is like desire poking through this kind of chicken wire they have between them that they've both erected or in, in, in, in Tony's case, maybe even barbed wire. So yeah, you're, you're completely right. They can't surrender to it. It's, it's, it's-- And there's, there are sentiments... I'm writing, you know, in a close first person, there are sentiments that Tony can't have because he's not going to admit them on the page. And the kind of things that he does admit, I would hope, are kind of almost like Freudian slips, he kind of admit-- He kind of tells on himself in a way, rather than explore his emotions on the page.

Brett Benner 16:28

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And it's also interesting too because even the way that he perceives when he's looking at Flute, there's a moment when they're in a home together and Flute goes upstairs and Tony doesn't know what he's doing. And, and by the way, that, that whole kind of confusion of, you know, again, who's in control here and what is actually taking place. And then I think at one point he goes upstairs and Flute is in the shower and he pulls the door open and he just lets Tony look at his body. And I think it's, it's so... There's, there's so little implied. I think he makes a reference to, like, his genitals or something, and then that scene kind of ends, but it's enough to make you know, like, okay. And he's just it's like trying to stay afloat while his emotions and desires are kind of stirring and churning and there's so many things. It's like trying to keep on top of it. It was weird for a moment because, and I don't know if you've had other people say this, that I, I had moments of thinking if someone said, "Well, he's not even gay. He just is trying to connect," I wouldn't refute that a- as a reader. I would... That's, I think it's an interesting thing because it's not like this is heated rivalry, right? It's not like we have, you know, this will they or won't they. It's really not that. Because I think with both men, I think this is an interesting thing that you do with Darren Flute as well. I should say Darren Walsh, but Flute is his nickname.

Djamel White 17:54

Flute works, yeah.

Brett Benner 17:55

Yeah, Flute. Because he also, he is this in terms of construction or, or let me say the way that I've perceived this, he is this uber masculine kind of hulk of a guy. Until his mother comes into it. And Melissa, his mother, who is like the cameo of cameos, is such a great character as well, but just the dynamic between he and his mother that gets set up so quickly of like a mom and her boy. And, um, again, it takes this idea that you've done of masculinity and turned it on its head. It's like there's a lot of these-- they're like these young men who are all looking for connection and also to be told, "Hey, it's gonna be okay." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like I almost want you to say, "I'm doing a whole nother book about Flute's story." Like his side of things and like where he-- Yeah, like where-- I mean, you could do like a whole-- this could be a whole, uh, series, right? You could do like a whole trilogy uh, the dog's trilogy. But yeah it's such an interesting, It's just a really interesting dynamic. It's just a really interesting dynamic that you've set up.

Djamel White 19:34

Yeah. I mean, for, for what little we see of Flute we get to wonder what he wants and is it what, is it what he wants? And, there's a tragedy there as well that we don't... It's not his story, unfortunately, but I li- I like that it's there. Who knows? Who knows?

Brett Benner 19:51

Also the way you write your women is great too because, there's, there's not what I would say a, quote-unquote, "weak" character in this book, and everyone is completely driven. You've kind of put it all balls to the wall with all of them. But I felt that way too so much with the women in this book. They're all so clearly drawn. They're all really intelligent. I- in some ways many times brighter than the men that are around them, or at least have a, have a better sense of themselves. And I'm sure that was intentional as well.

Djamel White 20:23

Yeah. Well, particularly with, with Fanny, who is kind of, the third member of this trio that Tony finds himself, you know, finding a connection with. I mean, she kind of just echoes my experience with, you know, just always feeling that bit more comfortable around, uh, girls or my, my queer male friends rather than around straight guys. I mean, there's a, there's a, a sense of ease then when you can kind of peel back any level of performance that kind of comes on, was gonna say subliminally, but that's, I don't know if that's the right word.

Brett Benner 21:00

No, no, no, I, but I understand what you're saying, and it's an interesting thing you even talking about this because I, I was talking to Douglas Stuart a- about his new book, which deals with a lot of the same kind of ideas about, you know, masculinity or toxic masculinity and also just sexuality. But it's also, like, just hearing you say that as a straight man, talking about just identifying or hanging out with women, say, or queer men because I- I've, I- I- I-- How do I say this? I so appreciate that because as a queer man, my comfort space has always been the same things you're talking about. But it's also-- what backstepped differently for me is not feeling like, oh, I could fit in that world of what I perceived as straight men, right? Or what I perceived as their ideas of, of masculinity or what it means, or even to express any kind of sensitivity. I personally have always been really taken with the idea of or interested in the idea of queer men and straight men who are, like, best friends. It, it also, it, it brought that to mind to me 'cause I was-- I just read Isaac Fitzgerald's new book, and I know he blurbs your book.

Djamel White 22:12

Yes, very generously.

Brett Benner 22:14

But Isaac talked about, you know, his best friend is Saeed Jones and about their relationship. Isaac is one of those people to look at Isaac, he seems like this big bear of a guy and, and he's a teddy bear, you know, in a lot of ways. And So hearing you say that just about yourself, I think it's such an interesting thing because I do think there's this world in here of how do we break down these barriers or how do people come together or even relate to each other that can be sensitive and that doesn't necessarily have to be based in sexuality, but also doesn't have to be kind of, uh, caught up in the idea of gender roles. Do you know what I mean?

Djamel White 22:53

Yeah. Yeah, it always-- the pressure just eased off. And I think when Tony's with Fanny, that pressure eases off as well, and he's, he's less likely to, you know, have to display what he displays even around Fruit. F-Fruit? Even around Flute.

Brett Benner 23:07

That's a full Freudian slip.

Djamel White 23:11

Yeah, right. And yeah, that, I mean, that was my experience growing up, with exceptions. I have, I have straight friends that are, you know, vulnerable around me and who I have a very kind of gentle connection with. And I've noticed that more as I got older, but I also noticed it as I kind of moved out of the countryside and, e-every now and then I'll encounter someone from what I call the old guard of masculinity, which is still very prevalent, but it's just because I've been outside of it for so long. You find your circles where you feel accepted, and you kind of forget that the rest of the world isn't like this. But also just, there are so many interactions where I catch myself, mode switching into a more kind of masculine version of myself, which isn't authentic. And, you know, it was never me, and that was something that was always kind of weighing heavily on me as a young person and trying to understand, do I need to be tougher? Do I need to... I ne- I never, I never kind of, I never kind of met the mark in a way that was convincing, I think, to anybody or sure to myself, surprise, yeah.

Brett Benner 24:12

Yeah. It w- what you just said to yourself, because I'm sure to some people it was, but in your own mind, were you coming up to an expectation of what you believed it should be, right? 'Cause I was, you know, you ta- uh, code switching, that, that's the key. That's it. I remember, uh, doing it all the time, and even w- I remember 'cause I went to drama school, and first getting out of drama school and being very conscious of the fact of, like, how I spoke and how I presented myself, 'cause God forbid if someone knew I was gay. Tony says, and I love this line a little bit like we're talking about, he says, "I wanted..." He's talking about going away and he says, "Somewhere hot, somewhere I wouldn't have to hide the parts of myself that made me happy." And that really hit hard of thinking like, "God, this guy is just a kid. He's really trying to just find his place."

Djamel White 25:04

Yeah, I mean, he's probably experiencing for the first time in that scene this sense of ease. He's in a space where he, he can let loose and, you know, Blue is behaving differently for the first time, just given the occasion that it is, and, and he's-- he, he shows his underbelly to them and to the reader, and it's, it's so short-lived given what happens later in that scene. So yeah, that's-- it's one of those few moments where I get a chance to be like, "No, this is maybe something that he actually wants," which we don't get a lot of insight to. He's very forthcoming with what we th- what, what he thinks he wants, but we get a glimpse into what, what it might actually be that would truly make him happy there, which... I appreciate that scene works for you.

Brett Benner 25:46

The book has been optioned, yes?

Djamel White 25:48

Yes.

Brett Benner 25:49

Is it, series or a movie?

Djamel White 25:50

So it's been optioned for a series and that's what they're going ahead to try and get produced, and here's hoping. We'll see what, what comes of it. These things can, they can take a long time or they can go nowhere, and that's just part of the... You, you know yourself, you work in entertainment.

Brett Benner 26:08

Okay. Awesome. Because it, it, it so screams for it to me. I, I, I mean, you know, you read a lot of stuff, but I was like, good God, this thing is so cinematic in your writing. It's completely lends itself to all of those things. Okay, I have another question. When was your first tattoo, and what was your first tattoo?

Djamel White 26:28

My first ta- oh my God, my first tattoo is so embarrassing, which I think it should be. I got my first tattoo when I was 15. It's not

Brett Benner 26:34

Don't say it's a butterfly on your lower back.

Djamel White 26:37

a butterfly. It's a qu- it's a quote across my chest. It's a, it's a quote from a poem which picked because it sounded deep because I was 15. Now it's right across my chest, and all I can think to do is just get more stuff around it so it kind of hides.

Brett Benner 26:55

So how many do you think you have now?

Djamel White 26:57

Oh, God. Hard to say. Pro- probably between 20 and 30, I'd say, 'cause some of them are quite big and they cover a lot of, a lot of space.

Brett Benner 27:07

And what was the most painful?

Djamel White 27:10

Your memory kind of fades, and the most recent always feels like it was the most painful, unless it was, like, a particularly easy one. But I got this done, like, eight days ago. And there was a moment, there was a moment where he was doing this kind of continuous line just there on, on my throat, and I kind of went beyond pain. I kind of-- It was kind of tran- It was kind of some sort of transcendental experience happened where I kind of felt like my eyes kind of moved through the back of my head. I just... Just because it was so sustained. You know, it hurt, and then it didn't hurt, and then it really hurt, and then it was over, and I just came rushing back in my body, and I was just like, "Whoa. We need a minute." But funnily enough, I think, like, for the most consistent amount of pain, my calf was bloody brutal. I really, really did not enjoy getting my calf done, and you'd think that would be one of the easy ones.

Brett Benner 28:01

I guess they say a lot of times it's where the skin is pulled taut, like anything near a bone can be a lot, I've heard.

Djamel White 28:07

Yeah, I've heard that. It ha- hasn't been in my experience. I find the fleshier or the mo- more muscular it kinda hurts me, the more it feels more like a cutting sensation, which is very pleasant.

Brett Benner 28:17

Well, Jamal, your book is fantastic. Everybody please go out and get the book. If you're an audiobook person, it's also fantastic on audio. Buy independent if you're able to buy independent. But, get it. It is just fantastic. I am so excited for people to discover Tony and Flute. But, what an amazing character piece and what an incredible just plot-driven novel. Y- it's really fantastic, so congrats.

Djamel White 28:45

Thank you. This was, this was wonderful. Thank you.

Brett Benner 28:50

Thank you again, Jamelle. And if you've liked this episode or other episodes of Behind the Stack that you've listened to, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. And also, what would be really helpful is if you could go to your podcast platform of choice and give the show five stars, and if you have the time, a review. All of these things help put the podcast in front of other listeners who might not have heard it yet. Thanks again for listening, and I will be back next week with another episode. And until then, you can find me on Instagram, YouTube, and Substack at Brett's Book Stack. Thanks for listening