Behind the Stack with Kristin T. Lee, We Mend With Gold

In this episode Brett sits down with author Kristin T Lee, to discuss her debut, 'We Mend With Gold'. They talk about the path that led her to writing this, bringing yourself to God, inclusivity and expanding the spiritual circle, raising kids today in Christianity, coming out on social media as a Christian, and what is it that keeps her in the church. 

Kristin's website:

https://kristintlee.com

Kristin's instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/ktlee.writes/?hl=en

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Transcript

Brett Benner 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack Today I'm so happy for this particular episode with author Kristen t Lee for her new book. We met with Gold. This was particularly special to me because I met Kristen. On Bookstagram and we had become friends and all of this was a surprise, and she said she was writing the book. So that alone made it really special. And I love this book so much. A little bit about Kristen. She is a writer whose work has appeared in Christianity Today and Sojo Joiners and a primary care physician serving Boston's Chinatown community. She writes about faith. Culture, books and Solidarity at the embers, and is a contributing columnist to the Covenant Companion, and she lives in Cambridge, Massachusetts. So please enjoy this episode of. I am so thrilled. to have Kristen with me here today. We were just talking and it's kind of a special thing because we know each other from the books to Gram world, but it's that Parasocial relationship where, you know, we've never met in person, we've never sat down. So when she kind of broke the news that she was writing this book. Of us, I think collectively in the books Grand World, we're so excited. And was so cool. And then to actually get the book and to know what it was, and. That you've written something that's so beautiful and so vulnerable and so honest. It's really, really special. This is like, particularly like for me, this is a really special sit down and I'm so, I'm just so happy you're here. So congratulations. The book is, we Met With Gold, which I'm gonna have her hold up. It's such a beautiful cover, but thank you so much for being here.

Kristin Lee 1:48

Thank you so much for having me. I'm truly delighted, Brett. I mean, as you mentioned, I feel like we're already friends from Bookstagram, so it's really fun to come on here and chat with you

Brett Benner 1:56

completely. First of all, I'm, I, I, you're an, you're an only child. You, you grew up in Iowa.

Kristin Lee 2:02

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner 2:03

How was that experience? Because you talk about it in the books, I think overall being an immigrant family in Iowa. Talk about that for a second.

Kristin Lee 2:11

Yeah, I mean, it was what I knew, so I didn't realize how unusual it was until I left Iowa, but it was definitely isolating in some ways. Um, like I didn't really have other Chinese American friends growing up and the world was very uh. It was not a world in which I felt comfortable at all. Um, but I adapted. Like I, you know, kids are adaptable and I figured out how to fit in and how to belong. But there was definitely some like ways in retrospect that I had to kind of contort myself to fit in better and really like distance myself from my culture and my heritage. Not that that was required of me, I don't think anyone like ever made fun of me for. For that, but I just felt like I wanted to be more like my friends, which is a very normal feeling as a kid. Right. And I, I just wanted to deemphasize any differences that I had, but honestly, I was a great place to grow up. Like people were very, very nice and hospitable because it was such a relatively small community. I felt like we had, you know, good friends and I was relatively, you know, known in the community. So I didn't feel like I had to explain myself all the time, which I appreciated.

Brett Benner 3:19

Interesting. My neighbor growing up, they were from Iowa, the parents were, and so I had gone one summer with my neighbor's father, who is highly this, highly intimidating man, and I drove with him to Iowa to pick up the rest of his family who are all visiting there. And it was in Davenport. Yeah. Um, so,

Kristin Lee 3:40

and there

Brett Benner 3:41

many

Kristin Lee 3:41

times.

Brett Benner 3:41

Yeah, that was like the one time that I'd ever been to Iowa, but I just had this like image of driving with from Pittsburgh to Iowa. I was so funny. Yeah. Was such a young kid who like was terrified to have any kind of conversation with an adult. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I just kind of sat there and like got to this. Planes country, I'm blown away by you.'cause first of all, you are a, a primary care PSI physician in Boston. You have three kids, which that in itself is a completely full life. And then you run this incredible Instagram account where you do some of the most thoughtful and kind of probing reviews of anyone that I know on that. Platform as well as running these reading groups. Like the one that's happening right now is the canon of James Baldwin. And it's so amazing and I got through this book and was like, when does this woman sleep?

Kristin Lee 4:35

Yeah, it's not good. I don't sleep enough.

Brett Benner 4:38

I know, I, I, I'm, so, I, I was, and I was saying it to my husband yesterday, I was like, I'm, I'm very much in awe of her that all that she accomplishes. It's, it's such an incredible thing. And then going through the book and seeing. Frankly, I'm, it's like you're just a servant, effectively of the Lord is what I'm gonna say. And so I look at that and I think, wow, I'm just, my, my hat's off to you. I think it's amazing and I don't know how you do it, and I want whatever multivitamin you're taking,

Kristin Lee 5:07

I mean, honestly, it's probably not, it's probably not good that I don't sleep. But I like all of those things that you mentioned. Give me so much life and joy, you know? Mm-hmm. Like I truly thrive off of. Reading and being with my dog and, and taking care of my patients and writing. And so I, I think that it is a really full life, but a really, really vibrant and like, joyful way to live too. But I probably should sleep more.

Brett Benner 5:34

So really quickly, if you can give a, a short synopsis of the book,'cause then I just have questions about what kind of, I started to say what the seed of this was for you and what, what made you think I need to write this.

Kristin Lee 5:47

Yeah, so the book kind of grew out of this long period in my young adulthood where I just felt out of sorts with the church. So I'd grown up in, you know, Chinese immigrant church, but also attended big white evangelical churches in Iowa growing up. Mm-hmm. And was trying to just be like an obedient kid and, and go along with it. But in college and in young adulthood, kind of crack started appearing in my faith. I was like, wait, do I really have to believe that to be a good Christian? Whether that is something that. Like about gay people shouldn't get married or like everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is gonna go to hell. Like these things just like really troubled me from a moral and intellectual perspective. But I was taught that you can't really question those things. Like these things are just God's law and if you question them, you're being heretical or disobedient. But it wasn't tenable though to kind of live in this half-hearted kind of faith.'cause I didn't wanna leave Jesus like Jesus remains. Very compelling to me and was at that time too. But I didn't wanna follow Jesus half-heartedly. Mm-hmm. So I was like, I need to figure this out. And so that began an exploration of like, voices in the church that had been marginalized. So like black Christians, women and American theologians. And reading those voices really helped free me from that fear. And from that. Like very narrow paradigm of what it means to be a Christian because there it was a lot broader than what I had been taught. And so having come through that time of really desolate loneliness spiritually, I really wanted to write a book that would speak to people who are in a similar place and show them that there's other ways to follow Jesus without having to contort yourself mentally. Spiritually, morally. And so that's how we mend with gold came about is, and I wanted to speak specifically to Asian Americans because there are books written by. White folks who've deconstructed black Christians who've always kind of resisted the racism and some misogyny and other parts of the church. But in the Asian American tradition, there hasn't been that much written specifically for, for those kinds of Christians who are questioning. So that's why I wrote it, and that's, that's how I got to this path.

Brett Benner 8:00

Explain the title.

Kristin Lee 8:02

Hmm. So we mend with gold comes from the Japanese art of Kintsugi, which is where artisans take a piece of pottery, break it apart, and then mend it with gold lacquer. And then the finished product is actually gorgeous and probably even more beautiful than if it had never been broken in the first place. And so. That is just such a powerful metaphor for me on so many levels because it shows me that if we are able to acknowledge the fractures and acknowledge the cracks, that is when true beauty and power and truth can come in when we attend to those fractures and cracks, whether that's in our lives of faith, whether that's. In our communal histories, whether that's in intergenerational family relationships, like we have to acknowledge the pain and the wound and the suffering in order to even start to mend and to heal. So throughout the book, I kind of refer back to that as I talk about some of these things.

Brett Benner 8:55

I love that whole description. I love that. The idea of that, it's so funny. One of the things I kept thinking, and you say this in the book, in the beginning of what you just said now as well, which is you had wrote this specifically with the Asian community in mind, and yet. I have to tell our listeners and our people who are watching this. For me, it was a really universal experience reading it, and perhaps because of my own story and because of my otherness, for lack of another way of saying it, that I really keyed into so much of this. First of all, I just have to tell you that the parallel lines, and maybe it's just like the. The guidebook that was laid down for kids growing up in the church, of which I did as well. Yeah. And. I have to tell you, I could literally have a sing off with you of, blessed Assurance, how great Thou Art, trust and Obey. And I was reading this and I had such a flashback of standing in church between my parents and my mother sharing the hymnal with me, but I wasn't quite. Tall enough to be on par with her. So I had to kind of push it up to like even keep it even for her. And also that moment. And you talk, you talk about this in the book of when the kids are dismissed Yes. To go down. Well, for us it was downstairs into the basement of the church and that last. Verse of the song when kids were supposed to go up. And I grew up in Pittsburgh and we this beautiful old, it looked like something that you would see in Europe, the church, and it had an incredible stone pulpit and into the side where the minister gave his sermon from. It was a, a spiral stone staircase. And I remember just watching him, it was kind of the majesty of it, which with the robe going up. Onto the thing and getting up, and he always timed it. It was theater, right? It was like the most high-end theater of just as the hymn finished with the organist leaving. And that there was just the moment, and then he'd say, good morning, or, you know, and, and start. And there was such a pageantry to it, and I was so caught up in it. And I think like you spent so much of my time in the church and how that was just so influential.

Kristin Lee 11:03

Yeah. And I, I to, I, I'm so happy to hear you say that. You felt like you could relate to and that it did feel universal Because even though on one hand I wanted to write something specifically for Asian American audiences because there's just not enough written for us, I did want it to be able to resonate with other readers. And so it makes me really happy that, that it did that for you.

Brett Benner 11:25

But it, I think you're hitting on so many things. First of all, the sense of church being a community, right? And, and how that is set up. And for, I think for many immigrant communities of finding a community and somewhere to latch onto, I'm so interested. And I, I think you do touch on some of this in the book, but like the Asian American community generally in terms of religion, it, it, it airs more conservative.

Kristin Lee 11:51

Yeah. I think that's generally speaking true. I think especially for first generation immigrants, the way, the path to making it in America, right, is to really put your head down, work hard, don't make waves, you know, even when you're mistreated, just take it and just work harder, right? Like at least. For many, for many first generation immigrants, that that's kind of the handbook. And I think that does lead you to a kind of more conservative mindset, right? Like you're just trying to follow the rules and trying to get a good life for you and your family. And so if, if you happen to be Christian or have converted to Christianity, like that kind of applies. Like you just wanna like be a good Christian, you wanna follow the rules that you were handed down to you from the Western Church, which leads to a pretty conservative mindset, I'd say.

Brett Benner 12:39

Because I started about this as, and. Just hearing, you know, you, you wanna follow the rules, you wanna be better. And, and also I think there's such a community mindset of, of being, like there's something you talk about in the book where if a white person does it at a hundred percent, they have to do it at 200%. And. That's sticking into it. And I'm, I was thinking about my own experience and there was never a question, it was just kind of follow the rules. But of course, I was part of the majority, right? I mean, I was part of what was expected and what was, I mean, for me, the secret was, you know, kind of brewing inside and I was like, something's off here, and how do I, how do I fix this? Ideally without. Without verbalizing it, right? How can I push this down and escape this without feeling like it's gonna get out? Especially, and again, like just like you, I remember reading those Timothy Lehe books. I was left behind series, which as I got to the end of them and finished them, even then as a young person, I was cognizant enough to be like, this is terrible. And it's, it's just such an interesting thing, how you were just expected to, this is the way it is, this is what it is, and we can't veer from. Anything.

Kristin Lee 13:54

Right? That's why, I don't know when you read, Baldwin's Go Tell On the Mountain for the first time, but I read in high school and it was both like super powerful but also like a little bit scary for me to read.'cause he describes some of these dynamics that we both experienced in the church where like just strict obedience is expected and you're just supposed to conform. But there's that undercurrent of something else, something going on underneath that is a little bit. Different. Right. That, that makes him a little bit different. And, and he critiques the church in various ways. And I think in high school I was, I was like already feeling that, but not quite ready to confront it. And so that, but it was so different from like the left behind series, right? Where, where you're just given this very, like, now that I look back at it, I'm like, that was such an out there model of like church and, and the apocalypse and all this. Baldwin's take is just, it was so revelatory to me. And I'm so glad I could revisit it this year when, when I was more, you know, I've, I've drew different

Brett Benner 14:54

place

Kristin Lee 14:54

so far. Different. Yeah.

Brett Benner 14:56

Yeah. Well it's funny'cause I hadn't read it until, until we read it with the group and I, okay. And so, and I, I knew enough about it because of having read the Baldwin biography in terms of his struggle, in terms of his struggle with both the church and. Everything that comes up in that book. And it did remind me a lot too, of what I said. I think I'd said in that, that group chat of Addie Kitchen's Dominion and kind of the, a lot of these same ideas in terms of hypocrisy, things that I get, like you, I started to question and see I had a different experience in some ways because church was a very, like my parents, it was a very social place. Right. And I think it still exists. Yeah. And I think that's an amazing thing. In fact. Chip, my husband, his mom, they, they were Episcopalian, but they were very involved in the church, but they used to host, every week would be thirsty Thursdays, where, you know, people would come over and you'd have cocktails and it's, it's, it's so incredibly wasp beat to me. But that was kind of the thing. And it was kind of like church as a social construct. I struggled a lot with the idea of, because there was a dynamic of still this kind of hierarchy of popular kids and, and I don't know if you experienced that as well. And so that was something I began to struggle with a little bit, but it started to bring up these questions in my mind of like, what is happening and just about faith and about. Following the Lord. Because in my mind, everything that had been drilled into me was you have to be good. You have to follow the rules. You have to do all of these things in order to enter the kingdom of God, because otherwise you are gonna burn in hell. And that was the scariest thing ever. I mean, I must have committed to, giving my life out of Christ like 17 times,

Kristin Lee 16:42

just to be sure.

Brett Benner 16:43

Just to be sure, because I wanna be like, I wanna, and also the, the kind of magical realism that happens as a child when you think of like, asking God for something and not seeing the direct results and what the, and, and really the idea of faith, just the idea of having and what faith means and, and having a belief. In something that you can't tangibly say. Here it is. Here, here, here it is.

Kristin Lee 17:10

Right, right. Yeah. No, it's, it was such a like psychologically messed up thing, right? To like instill the fear of hell in all these kids. And I mean, honestly, I think a lot of the grownups doing this were doing it out of love because that, that's what they believed. Like they really, truly thought that if they didn't rescue us from al, that we would burn forever. But I think, gosh, like how damaging that. Was to so many of us, all that fear that just, perva our lives. And gosh, I hope that, all the kids that we're taught that will find a more loving and inclusive God because I don't think God is about condemnation, you know?

Brett Benner 17:49

Yeah. The book really kind of touched my soul and it kind of really woke up for me a lot of stuff that I thought has been buried and that, you know, I had been aware of. And so that's why I felt so much of it was so refreshing, and I just love that so much. And this idea that you get into, especially in the second half of the book. Talking larger and, and, and larger context about a family and what family means. And it just doesn't have to mean the construct of like, you know, parents and children and that kind of thing. But a, in a larger context. And also this idea that you get into, and if you could talk about it a second of kind of extrapolating and pulling from different type of. Spiritual ideas and different cultures. And like you talk about Celtic Presbyterianism and can you talk about all that for a minute?'cause I love this idea of, it doesn't have to be this one cookie cutter idea that so many of us have been raised with.

Kristin Lee 18:46

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for many of us who grew up in kind of American Protestant context, we think that that's like it. Or even like in Catholicism, like we think that's. That's the one true faith. But if you look back historically, there's actually so many different strands of Christianity globally. Like whether that's the Ethiopian Church or the Martha Church in India, that was, you know, historically linked to the Disciple Thomas, right? Like from the very, very early stages of Christianity. Even the Eastern Orthodox Church, there's a lot of diversity in global Christianity that I have benefited from learning about, and I'm just like. Early stages of exploring all that. You know, I haven't even done deep dives into any of these traditions, but just scraping the surface, I'm like, there's so much richness when we learn from each other instead of trying to stay closed off and saying, those are the other traditions that aren't quite. Right. You know? Yeah. I think if we humble ourselves and listen and are willing to learn, like there's just so many ways to experience if we believe in God, like God's humongous like you, like God's un incomprehensible fully, like more lenses only benefits us when we approach God. I think like, I think restricting the number of lenses or the ways that we look at God just kind of SAPs God of God's power.

Brett Benner 20:09

You talk in this about, and I had to look it up about, and correct me if I'm mispronouncing this, but syncretism. Is that correct? Yeah. And so I, I looked this up and it said in the Bible, syncretism is the forbidden blending of the true worship of God, Yahweh, with foreign, pagan religious practices or philosophies, it involves incorporating elements from other belief systems into biblical faith leading to a compromised illegitimate religion. Stricture consistently condemns this demanding, exclusive devotion to God. Which is so interesting because again, like what you're saying, I think if something can be out there to bring you into a closer relationship, especially now that we have so much more of a better understanding of things and also. The kind of universality of so much of this. And I think a lot of what you get into, especially in the second part of the book, is living a life as a Christian and a person who is following in God's example and what Jesus' teachings were. And I feel like that. Is something that not only is it an amazing, but it's been lost and somewhere along the way. What you're saying and the points you're making in this book, in terms of literally like one of the first tenants of loving your neighbor and how much, we've lost so much of this, like we've lost the plot. Yes,

Kristin Lee 21:31

yes. And I think it's. In America, especially like Christianity and Evangelicalism in particular are now linked to like the politics of the rights, right? Yeah. And, and that's by design like that. That was a very much strategic political alignment from some of these Christian leaders and. What a waste of the, of, of the good news of Jesus. Like that's not what Jesus wanted. Like Jesus was not telling us, let's get as much power as possible for my people, my followers, right? Like not at all. And so we have lost the plot. Um, and I think what encourages me though is that there are. I am at least privy to see, and I I, but these are not the people in the news, right? I at least get to see the PE Christians who continue to just humbly follow Jesus in these very everyday ways of loving their neighbor and, and, and trying to truly serve others. And I. I mean, if that's what Christians were known for, our world would be a better place, right? If Christians could just do what Jesus says, which is really hard, I don't wanna dismiss that. It's hard to do what Jesus says, like love your enemies. That's so radical and so difficult. But if we did what Jesus said, the world would be better. We would be better off. Like our relationships among one another would be better off. I don't know. I think the church as a whole, I don't know how to get new leadership. It's just, it's, it, it saddens me a lot, but I, I have hope because I still see the ordinary people doing, doing what Jesus taught, and I hope more and more people can do that.

Brett Benner 23:07

I have two questions. In terms of raising your kids, how do you, approach raising them in a loving and Christian way, and how does it differ from what you were raised with, with your own parents?

Kristin Lee 23:18

Yeah. I mean, part of my motivation for figuring out all my doubts and questions, not that there's answers, but just figuring out how to approach them was because I, I had kids early and I was like, oh my gosh. Like I can't just push away these doubts and questions anymore. Like I have to know at least. What my values are and how I'm gonna raise these kids. And, so they were a big motivator for me to, to not be afraid anymore, to confront those questions and doubts. And so they've grown up with me wrestling very deeply with God and with church. And what I've, you know, the way I. Speak with them about faith is very honest and open about the open doubts that I continue to have. Also, the places of disagreement that I have with our, our church. So we, we continue to attend church. We bring our kids, but they know that I don't agree with every single thing that the pastor says. I try to be respectful of those differences and I try to teach them how to live in community that can, that's diverse, like. Theologically and how it's okay to disagree, but how human dignity matters and, yeah, I, I, it, it is not an easy road. But I want them to feel very comfortable being honest about whether they even wanna have a relationship with God, whether they believe in God and the way that I, I do. Like I don't want them to feel constrained and I definitely don't want them to fear hell. I think, That's one difference is that I think my parents, they're, they're so loving and and sacrificed so much for me, but they were definitely of the mindset like, okay, this is just the truth. And Christianity is very black and white and there's no gray areas and you just have to fall in line. And so that's kind of the faith framework that I grew up with. But it meant that when I started having those doubts, I felt like. I couldn't turn to them. Like, I couldn't talk to my parents for sure. Like, I still can't, like this book is a secret from my parents. Right. Um,

Brett Benner 25:16

yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you know, and you say in the beginning, I think with, to your parents and if you ever read this, I'm sorry, like you're prefacing it, but in the beginning, and uh, and I'm like, how does she keep the lid on this box? Do you know what I mean?

Kristin Lee 25:29

I mean, it's hard. Like I don't, they'll, my friends are like, they're gonna find out. They might, but I'm trying not. I'm trying everything I can not to, because I mean, I really, really respect them and, but part of honoring them while honoring my own. Spiritual integrity is to just have boundaries because the, the conversations we have about faith are not productive or healthy, and so I just can't talk to them about it. And I know that they would not be happy with this book, so I'm just trying to keep it under wraps. But I just, I want my kids to have a different experience. I want them to know that whatever they end up believing. And I, I'm sure that will evolve as life goes on, that we can have open conversations about it and that they won't be judged for it because I want them to, wherever they land, I want it to be out of a place of authenticity and not coercion.

Brett Benner 26:22

Sure. How old are your kids?

Kristin Lee 26:25

They're 11, 12, and 14.

Brett Benner 26:27

Wow. So they're in that age where they're questioning everything Anyway.

Kristin Lee 26:31

Right. Exactly.

Brett Benner 26:32

Yeah. And starting to push back, like, you know.

Kristin Lee 26:35

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner 26:37

That wonderful phase when they're young enough that you could put them in whatever clothes, you can take them wherever, and they're so compliant and suddenly they're like, don't wanna wear that. I think it's the most amazing part of being a parent is watching your, your children become the people that they are. It's also the most frustrating.

Kristin Lee 26:54

Right, right. Exactly. It makes it more difficult, but it is, it's very beautiful to watch.

Brett Benner 27:00

I'm curious with your parents though.'cause I see it, I see with my, with some of my siblings. Have you found that over time certain things have mellowed with them or that their own faith has evolved?

Kristin Lee 27:12

You know, it's hard to say because the way I experience their faith is often just through. Critical comments. So I don't know that I've experienced that. But I am encouraged that, you know, they're very much anti-Trump. And so like that was an open question for me. I was like, I don't know what they're, like, who they're gonna, I knew my dad wouldn't vote for Trump, but I wasn't sure. And so at least. At least like I do think my parents' faith is super genuine and they can see through Trump and see that he's a terrible person. Right? Yeah. And so there's at least that. But I think the, like morality structures and um, just the very tight strictures of faith have not necessarily changed for them.

Brett Benner 27:57

Interesting.

Kristin Lee 27:57

So yeah,

Brett Benner 27:59

there's a quote that you used in the book that I love this, talking about identity again and, and rooting it. And it's from theologian HK Joon Lee. And he says, when faith is not rooted in identity, it becomes a little more than an accessory. No matter how long one has been a Christian or attended the church, detached from identity. Personal and cultural faith is likely to wither away or be discarded, and that was such a resonant and incredible quote to me to say again of. Bringing who you are to your faith and being authentic in the best way, you know how while also searching and following these tenets in the best way possible.

Kristin Lee 28:40

Yeah, it, it's, it's interesting because I do think we have to be true to ourselves and bring all those pieces of our ourselves to God in order to. You know, have a relationship with God. But also I do think that, you know, following Jesus means that there are parts of us that are, that will shift and be shaped by Jesus. Like if we were just staying the same, that's not a real, you know, mutual relationship with Jesus. It's an interesting two-way street. Like there's a. All that we bring. But then Jesus also influences us and shapes us too, but not in the way that like, I think fundamentalists would say, like, you have to like leave those parts of yourself at the door in order to be acceptable to God. I don't believe that.

Brett Benner 29:20

Where do, and for your life now, where do you feel,'cause at one point you said that Christianity took primacy over your ethnic identity, and where are you now with it?

Kristin Lee 29:31

Yeah, I mean, in a way that H Lee quotes. Is is helpful'cause it's all part of who I am. Mm. You know, I, it's really hard to separate now. Like I've, I feel like those pieces were super separate, like never even touching each other when I was growing up. Like, I didn't even think about them in the same way. But now I'm like, it's all wrapped up, it's all integrated and I can't tease it apart and that's the way I like it. Sure. Yeah, and so I think that it, it is not something I can disentangle and I'm, I'm happy to say I am both and fully both. Yeah.

Brett Benner 30:04

Was it a weird, was it, let me ask you this,'cause like, kind of you are coming out as a Christian on social media because that's how I know you and that's why I'm using that example. Yeah. Was that a vulnerable thing for you to do? How was that?

Kristin Lee 30:19

Yeah. Such an interesting question.'cause you know, I grew up kind of in, in more evangelical and fundamentalist spaces, I did feel like kind of. It's not acceptable to be a Christian, but it was because I didn't, because I had dissonance in myself as a Christian back then. I was like, I'm a Christian, but I'm holding these views that actually don't make sense to me, and so that's why I'm not. Comfortable being a Christian publicly, right? Like I'm, I, I, I was not comfortable being a Christian publicly because I didn't really believe wholeheartedly. And it, but it's after I worked through all those things and was able to shed some of the more manmade parts of Christianity, and I'm like, those aren't actually what it means to be Christian. Now I'm very comfortable publicly being a Christian because I'm like, that's even though, like in America, unfortunately, we have a very. Preconceived notion of like what fundamentalist Christians are like, sure, but not all Christians are like that, and I'm, I feel. Fine publicly being like, I'm a Christian, you can think what you want, but this is the way that I, I follow Jesus. And I thankfully people have not have been very kind and accepting in the bookstagram space. Like I haven't gotten any flack about it. But I totally understand like so many people have been hurt by the church and so I totally understand if, if it gives people pause and I respect that.

Brett Benner 31:40

Yeah. Well it's an interesting thing'cause when you first, I don't even know how it first came up. Maybe it was pre-book, but it just was something that you said and I was, it was that moment of like, oh, I didn't see that coming. You know what I mean? Yeah. And again, because I think now we're so conditioned to think Christianity, fundamentalism, wackadoodle, right wing, whack jobs, and so. It is that moment of that. And again, that's why I was so glad to get the book and suddenly break this open and enter this your world and your worldview and it's so beautiful and I just kept thinking, wow, this is so great. This is so amazing. I love something you say towards the end of the book, I almost said, and this is not a spoiler, but you say, I stay in the church because I refuse to let spiritual descendants of slaveholders and segregationists monopolize Jesus and I. I loved that so much.

Kristin Lee 32:37

Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm very much. Yeah, I mean I'm not trying to like fight culture wars in the church or anything like that. I truly just mean like that's not what Jesus is about. And if I leave the church just because I'm like so sick of all the public facing Christians that we see in the media who are spewing hate, that is so not what Jesus was about. And thankfully, I, like I mentioned before, I, I know so many Christians who are not like that. And so that also keeps me in the church. I'm like. There's really good people here. Um, there's also the not so good people, but there's really good people here and I like to be around them and they make me a better person. And so I appreciate that kind of community, that sense of community and that sense of supporting each other and, and resisting kind of the warped Christianity of, of our country.

Brett Benner 33:31

Yeah. Look, some of these people, like for example, just hearing James Tele Rico speak and yesterday I saw that apparently Seth's minister or something called for tele Rico to be put to death. And Tele Rico's response was just, you know, and he said, I love you as much as you want me to be dead. And I was like, wow. Wow. What an incredible response. And so. I do have hope and I want to believe, look, I wanna, I would love a world where more people think like you, um, but have this, you know. Idea of kind of a, a global community, but also a global community that can be spiritual. And because I think it's important and I, we all, we, we want to feel, I think more than ever people are looking for answers and for a space where they're gonna feel loved and undergirded and supported. And that's really what your book does. And it did for me. It's kind of, it was a bomb. Um. In kind of this chaotic time that we're living in. So I, I'm, I'm, I'm so thrilled for you, and I hope that people read it with an open heart and an open mind, and really open themselves up to the possibilities of what can a spiritual life look like. It's kind of spirituality 2.0 in my eyes.

Kristin Lee 35:01

Thank you so much. Thank you. That, that's so meaningful to me. That is what I hope for readers as well, that, that they will come with an open mind, even, even if they've had bad experiences in the past.'cause I don't think that that's the be all and end all. And I do think that there's nourishment to be found in faith, um, that, that we need to gird us to do the good work in the world that that needs to be done. So thank you for being such a thoughtful and compassionate reader of this book.

Brett Benner 35:27

I just want people to get it. So to that end, please go out and get the book. Buy Independent. If you're able to buy Independent. Um, I also know I saw that, you know, the audio book is gonna be coming out as well. I actually was kind of surprised you didn't read it.

Kristin Lee 35:41

I wanted to, you did, but the audio book recording company that did it usually doesn't do, they usually only use professionals. So, but I'm so thankful actually, that I didn't do it because the person who read it reached out to me and said it was so healing for her to read it. And so I was like, okay, that's amazing. Yeah. I'm glad you did it. Yeah,

Brett Benner 36:01

that's amazing. That's amazing. I'm so thrilled again that we were here. I'm so glad we talked. I'm so glad you wrote this and, and I think what you are doing and your story and the way that you live your life is such an example for the rest of us. So I just wanna say thank you.

Kristin Lee 36:17

Thank you, Brett. I'm so thankful for this time together. And thank you just for reading and featuring the book. I appreciate you.

Brett Benner 36:26

Thank you again, Kristen. And if you've liked today's episode or other episodes that you've heard of behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode, and one more thing that would be really helpful to me is if you do like the show, please consider giving it five stars on your podcast platform of choice. Also, if you have the time, what would be really helpful is to write a review. All of that stuff helps put the podcast in front of other people who may not know about it yet. And I would really, really, really appreciate it. I'll be back next week with another episode, and in the meantime, you can always find me on Instagram substack and on YouTube at Brett's books Stack. And as always, thanks for listening.