Emma Straub, American Fantasy

In this episode Brett sits down with Emma Straub to discuss her new book, "American Fantasy'. They talk cruises (of course) Boy Bands (for sure), MTV, fame, childhood crushes, recapturing memories from your youth, growing older and staying younger, opera, Sondheim, and some special books recs of two debut authors. 

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https://www.emmastraub.net/

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https://www.instagram.com/emmastraub/

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Transcript

Brett Benner 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I am sitting down with author Emma Troub for her brand new book, American Fantasy. A little bit about Emma. She is the New York Times bestselling author of six books for adults, the novels. This time tomorrow, all adults here, the vacationers, modern lovers, Laura Lamont's, life and Pictures, and this short story collection, other people we married. She's also the author of a picture book, very Good Hats. Her books have been published in more than 20 languages. She and her husband own books are Magic, an independent bookstore in Brooklyn, New York. So I hope you enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. Welcome back to Behind the Stack, where today I'm thrilled to be sitting down with the wonderful Emma Rob for her new book, American Fantasy, which is just so much fun and so heartwarming. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Emma Straub 1:02

Thank you for having me.

Brett Benner 1:04

The book is, it's just so much fun for so many reasons. But first of all, can you talk a little bit about how this story came up for you and what the, the impetus was?

Emma Straub 1:14

Sure. Yeah. So basically I would say that this book proves that I'm an extremely serious novelist because I have been researching this book. For, I'd say about 35, 35, 36 years. Like I have really, really put in the time. I'm 45 now, so that's like, you know, most of my life I've been working on this book in some, like in a, in a pre, uh, you know, cognitive way where. You know, I, I, I was just letting it all flow in. But, but more specifically to answer your question, so my last book was all about my father and was all about death. And it, it was, I mean, I loved, I loved writing that book this time tomorrow. I loved writing that book, but I also cried every day while I was writing that book. And when I, when I came out of that, I was like, what could I do? What could I write about that would give me the same kind of like true deep, profound pleasure, but where, where I would not cry every day, but where I might feel like, I don't know, an impossible sense of joy every day. And then I saw an ad for the new kids on the block annual cruise, and I thought. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. I, I mean it, you know, I didn't have, I didn't have like an idea, I didn't have a plot. I didn't have any characters. I didn't know anything else, but I knew that was it. And for me, like, I don't know how it works for other novelists, but. But, but I find that that's how it works best, you know, because it's so easy to have an idea. I've got millions of ideas that, that sit around in notebooks or in documents on my computer, and I come and I go to them and I think, oh, well, yeah, okay. Yeah, that could, that could be interesting. But when you, when you have an idea that is just like, whew. Yes. that's how you know it's really gonna be fun. And so it took me about a year after I had the idea to actually, go on a new kids on the block cruise for research. But by then I had everything pretty well worked out and it truly was, the experience was exactly what I hoped it would be, which is that it brought me obscene pleasure.

Brett Benner 3:39

Did you go by yourself?

Emma Straub 3:41

I did indeed go by myself and not because I don't have friends or loved ones. Because I do, I swear. So, you know, my husband was like, I'll, I'll, I'll go with you if you want me to go. And I said, no, no. And I had friends who said like, why don't we go? But I said, no, no, no. I just, I did not want, I mean, it sounds silly. Because it sounds like, I don't understand like, uh, physics or the human body, but I just like, I wanted to be invisible. Yeah. I wanted to be totally invisible. I did not want to be perceived, I did not want to be observed. I only wanted to use my eyeballs, pointed out, you know, I wanted to be a ghost. On this ship. I didn't wanna make friends. I didn't, I didn't wanna tell anybody what I was doing, but mostly I didn't want to be looked at, you know, I didn't, I didn't want, other than just as a, you know, a part of the scenery, like a potted plant or, you know, a pool chair or something. Yeah. Like, I just, I wanted to observe what I was seeing and think about it without, without thinking about. Myself and, and I certainly didn't wanna take care of anybody else. You know, like I didn't want other people there who weren't having the experience that I was. So yes, I went very much alone.

Brett Benner 5:02

I only ask that because, well, not, the only reason I ask her, because in the book, the, the character of Annie, she, she goes by herself. I mean, she's supposed to go with her sister, and her sister ends up at a mishap. So she goes by herself, and I think it's amazing you did it, first of all, and understand. A granular kind of exploratory thing that was all about the book, which makes complete sense because I personally would never have been able to do that. I mean, I, uh, you know, as someone who used to struggle even going to like dinner by myself, except if I had a book in my hand and could lose myself in something, when you walk up and you're like. Are you waiting for someone? No, it's just me. Yeah. So the idea of actually going on that cruise ship, which was one of the biggest things when I got into the book, I was like, wow, this woman has, you know, there's a power just in that, which I found so admirable, so I. Just thinking about you being on that ship, and again, I completely understand why you did what you did. Um, but more power to you, I mean, research or not.

Emma Straub 6:07

Oh, it was, I mean, I had no trouble. I had no trouble. You know, I mean, the thing about a cruise like that is that. You are, you are surrounded. If you, if you see yourself in any way as a part of the whole, you know, as like a part of the fandom or whatever, you are not alone. I mean, you know, there is always some other middle-aged lady standing next to you. You know, having had too many drinks or what, you know, it's it like I was not alone. I was never alone. Yeah. I was amongst my people.

Brett Benner 6:45

You're amongst your people. Again, I find it, I, I, I'm so fascinated by the whole concept of it, and I'm so fascinated and ha as someone who's never been on a cruise and my, my husband is adamant, he's always been adamant like not to do it. And the funny thing is, we are going next year, like with two friends of ours who do cruises.

Emma Straub 7:03

Yeah.

Brett Benner 7:03

And I'm sure it'll be lovely. And if you ask me where we're going right now, I'm saying generally somewhere around France. Don't even remember. However. It's just the fact that we're going, I'm like, okay. And that he has agreed to do this should be funny enough. So, you know, we'll see.

Emma Straub 7:22

when I went on the new Kaza block cruise. I had never been on a cruise before. And since then, I have gone on two more cruises with my, with my in-laws who are very big cruisers and they, you know, took our whole family. And the first time we went to Alaska and the second time we went around sort of the British Isles. And let me tell you, if you go on a nice cruise. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. There's a big range. Let me just say that the cruising experience is not a, a, a monolith, you know, and so I think you will have a wonderful time.

Brett Benner 7:57

Okay. All right. This is good to know because somehow I've gotten onto the algorithm on Instagram where I am seeing one video after another of the boats going through a Northern passage or that very rough sea thing with the, with the soundtrack underneath of the guy, the pirates thing. Oh, no.

Emma Straub 8:15

Oh,

Brett Benner 8:16

no. I'm like, so,

Emma Straub 8:17

oh no. This is, this is, this is like, listen, number one, anxiety meds are always available. Sure, yeah, you'll, you'll be fine. But, but also you're not gonna hit a a, a rocky Sea. Right. You know?

Brett Benner 8:31

Right, right.

Emma Straub 8:32

You're not, you're gonna be a hundred percent fine. That's just the algorithm trying to frighten you. That's

Brett Benner 8:38

all. Oh, sure. They do that. So it's an interesting thing. Going back to what you said in the very beginning with your last book in this book.'cause it's very much to me, like in regards to your dad that that book, you were, you were preparing for something and in this book you were healing from something.

Emma Straub 8:53

Yeah.

Brett Benner 8:53

And so it's really kind of beautiful, the gift that came out of all this.

Emma Straub 8:57

Yeah.

Brett Benner 8:58

In a lot of ways.

Emma Straub 8:59

Yeah. Yes. And I, I mean, I was, I was thinking today about, and I, if I cry, I'm sorry, but you know, my dad wrote really scary books.

Brett Benner 9:09

Yeah.

Emma Straub 9:10

Like serial killers and Vietnam and just murder, murder, murder. You know? And he like, I think what he really wanted was for me to feel so free of him. And my mo, you know, to, to like, to like write as if my parents were dead. You know, like that's, that's what he would've loved to, for me to feel like, I dunno, just, just able to write whatever I wanted. And I think he would've been so absolutely tickled. That this is what I did. And my mother, my mother told me, it's the sexiest book I've ever written. And she's read them all. She's read them all.

Brett Benner 9:53

Wow.

Emma Straub 9:54

But I, I mean, yeah, it's so funny to me. And, and you're, you are a hundred percent right that like, you know, I wrote this time tomorrow sort of as he was dying and, and then I wrote this book after he died. You know, really to, to give myself this other gift, you know, like writing this time tomorrow was a gift that I gave to myself. And so was this like, I mean, this was absolutely, I mean, I, you know, the books are, they're not the same. They're not sequels, they're not connected at all in any way. Except in this way where, where they are sort of two halves of a hole in my head, which is like this, this experience. And it, it's funny, the older I get, the more I understand how growing up never stops, you know? And the aging is interesting and like it really doesn't scare me anymore. Remember when 30 sounded so old like,

Brett Benner 10:50

oh my God,

Emma Straub 10:51

oh God. And now when I. See pictures of myself at 30. I think. Like I was at a child, I was a. So, you know, now I'm 45 and I'm just interested. Now I'm more interested in like, oh, what's this like, what is this phase of life that I find myself in that I haven't been in before? Let's explore.

Brett Benner 11:13

Yeah. And, and that's very much what she does in the book and out of where she is and. There's so many elements to this, which I love, which are so, so right. One of them just kind of being this idea of people in their middle aged still being sexual creatures. Yeah. And being just creatures with desire and that we have all these things. You know, there, there's the line early in the book that, and the, the band in the book is called Boy Talk, and she said, these are the guys that had launched a million sexual awakenings.

Emma Straub 11:40

Yeah.

Brett Benner 11:41

But. It's such an interesting thing because I had a conversation with a friend of mine some time ago, and, and, and I'm sure you see this having children, you, you forget that as children you forget your parents are human and with flaws, but also with sexual desires and attractions and all these other things, everything just becomes kind of, you pick, I'm kind of neutered in your child's eyes. Yeah,

Emma Straub 12:02

yeah.

Brett Benner 12:02

You're just the person who feeds them and does all the things for that.

Emma Straub 12:05

Yeah.

Brett Benner 12:06

So. I love this idea of this woman being on this boat, which is, you know, popping with sexual energy and kind of finding herself again through that.

Emma Straub 12:19

Yeah, just to your point though, so my children are, they're 10 and 12 now. I have two boys and an interesting. Thing that happened while I was writing this book was that I got introduced via a mutual friend to, to one of the members of the new kids on the block who was, you know, my favorite, favorite person in the world. When I was a kid and my kids got to really watch me work through this new relationship in my life, like work through this friendship that was forming. And at first they were so excited because they saw that I was like, oh my God, I get to talk to this guy. Yeah. And like, and he's fabulous and smart and, and like just a terrific person. I, and I was so excited. I mean, I always talked to my kids and my husband, you know, like every day they're, we talk about what I'm working on and my book and whatever. and so sort of he became a part of that. And, you know, I would, if I had talked to him, I would tell them about it. And, and then at a certain point. Something happened. I don't know what it was, but May. I had like said his name too many times or you know, something and they turned and they were like, what? What is this lady like? What is this lady? They all of a sudden. Realized I think that like I was having an experience, like I was participating in a relationship that they didn't fully understand. Mm-hmm. That wasn't like, I mean, you know, I like my husband was not worried. You know? Yeah. Let's just say, and neither was I, but they, because they couldn't sort of see all the angles. They were freaked out by it because they were like, wait a minute, you are my mom like this.

Brett Benner 14:07

Yeah,

Emma Straub 14:08

yeah. I mean, just going to exactly what you just said. And I was like, oh God, how interesting. That to me. This is like a safe and funny part of this story. You know, like, it's all good, but to them they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is,

Brett Benner 14:25

it's a

Emma Straub 14:26

threat. This is a threat. And we don't like it. Um, they've, they've, they've come around. They've come around. But, but for a little while there, uh, I was like, oh. Wow. Here we are with something new.

Brett Benner 14:38

Yeah. And I, this friend that I was talking to, she just said she was, she kind of laughed at it'cause she said, you know, all the poor kids, they just forget that we're sexual beings just in inherently, you know? Yeah. Or that things are gonna be attractive or even to comment like I find now,'cause my, my son's 22 and my daughter is. 19, but they're very free with me in a way that I love to talk about this person's hot or this person's hot. Conversely, if I will say, said, person is hot, I'm disgusting and what is wrong with me? You know, it's that like you can't say that.

Emma Straub 15:10

Yeah.

Brett Benner 15:11

So, and I also find even the way that I have to. I can, you know, whatever I put up on social media. And by the way, like my social media is only the books. Yeah. I don't really get into personal stuff. I mean, I, I bitch a lot about political stuff, but not, you know, that

Emma Straub 15:27

Yeah.

Brett Benner 15:28

So there's very few things where I've. Even commented on someone and, but if I do, I'm waiting for like the boom to drop and like you can't do that. And I have friends that follow you and that's an appropriate

Emma Straub 15:43

Yeah, and it

Brett Benner 15:43

could strictly be like, oh my God, those boys from seed rivalry are adorable and I'm

Emma Straub 15:49

suddenly, well, I do, I mean, I. A shift that I have noticed in myself or like it, it's not even like a shift, it's just something that I'm aware of is that like, let's say heated rivalry, right? Where if I'm saying, oh my God, this boy is so cute, whatever, all of a sudden I'm like, whoa, I am. Old enough to be this person's mother. And I'm not hitting on them. I'm not hitting on them, which would be gross. But like, is it, is it gross? You know, and then I'm questioning myself. Like, is that, is that a creepy thing to say? Like, you know, often my bookstore booksellers are. You know, I would say mostly their twenties. Twenties and early thirties, most of them.

Brett Benner 16:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Emma Straub 16:33

And sometimes I hear myself saying something to them about, you know, whether it's, and, you know, an actor or a writer or a movie star, whatever. And, and I'm like, oh God, oh God, am I. Right. Like, am I like a lech? And they're all like, oh, there goes Emma again, talking about,

Brett Benner 16:55

right, right. And which is so, that's so part of this book though, too. Yeah. And, and that this whole argument comes up, but it also, it made me question as I was reading it, like, what is it, or where is it in society? That says you can't be this way anymore. Truly there are are levels of inappropriateness, right? We all know that. Yeah. Yeah. But just the run of the mill thing.

Emma Straub 17:18

Yeah.

Brett Benner 17:19

Where people are still human. Yeah. And people like where does it stop? Where suddenly for one moment you're vibrant and you're attractive and attracted. Yeah. And. You know, cat food, you know? Yeah. And, and it's inappropriate to say things and it's inappropriate to, like you said, like you have to completely be careful of what you say because you're a lech,

Emma Straub 17:46

effectively. Yeah. Well, right. But that, I mean, that's sort of what's so beautiful about, about experiences like the cruise in the book, because like this woman. Not alone. Like she's not, she's not gross in this group of people. She's not. She's not disgusting. She's not old, she's not past whatever. She is right inside it and it is all good. Yeah, it is like a express highway back to feeling like in her prime. I mean, I would argue she's still in her prime. You know, period. With this group surrounding her, everything she's doing is okay. And, and maybe that's also like, you know, a jury of your peers. That's the idea that if you're, like, if, if, if the character was with her teenage daughter.

Brett Benner 18:40

Sure

Emma Straub 18:41

she would, she would, she would feel judged. But with all the other talkers, you know, with all the other fans, she's fine. She's fine. And that's such a nice feeling to feel accepted and right where you belong and that you, that you're not gross. You know, like you're not gross, you're not a lech. Although I will say I have seen over and over again, grown women behave in ways you just would not believe with these men. It is, it is wild. The women really, they will really go for like a full grope. I have seen

Brett Benner 19:15

interesting.

Emma Straub 19:16

So much groping. Of the, of the men on stage of not, I mean, as, as an audience member, one of the beautiful things about it is that you, I have never felt so safe in my life. You know, you're surrounded by middle-aged women. There are like a handful of men there, like a handful of gay men, a handful of husbands of the, of the women, and that's it. You know, like there is no one like. I mean, it sounds, you

Brett Benner 19:41

just described every Taylor Swift concert as well, because I felt the exact same way going. Right, right. I'm serious. Like, take it. We went, our family went together to Taylor Swift and I was like, this is like a giant hug. It was the safest environment. Oh yeah. I ever felt like I had been in, you know, it so intimate and so wonderful and so like, so I, you know, no groping. Yeah. And, and it was just like, this is crazy. Incredible. Yeah. So,

Emma Straub 20:07

yeah.

Brett Benner 20:08

I wonder, you know, obviously you said new kids on the block. Were there others, like seminal people for you as a kid that you were so drawn to?

Emma Straub 20:15

Oh, I mean, personally for me, like my, my 12-year-old is named River in, in part because River Phoenix was extremely important to me, like extremely important to me.

Brett Benner 20:29

Running on empty is one of my favorite films, by the way.

Emma Straub 20:31

Oh God.

Brett Benner 20:32

Oh, I mean that whole cast, every single moment of that thing is,

Emma Straub 20:36

is

Brett Benner 20:36

it's perfect.

Emma Straub 20:37

Yes. It's it is, it is absolutely wonderful. It is absolutely wonderful. I had a gigantic running on empty poster in my room, so I, I mean, that was number one. That was number one. After that, I mean, there were, I, I was sort of indiscriminate, like there were like pictures of like, I don't know. Kirk Cameron. Oof. You know? Yikes. Yikes.

21:00

If

Brett Benner 21:00

you only knew

Emma Straub 21:00

if I only knew, or Leonardo DiCaprio or you know, whatever, my walls were a collage of beautiful teenage boys. But there is something about like. dunno. You know, it, it's, I mean, I like to think that I just had wonderful taste, but, but I, but I do think that even if you're very young, sometimes you see things in people and you just think like, yes. That that person really speaks to me. Whatever it is, whatever it is, if it's their bone structure or a, a sort of sense of humor or charisma or whatever it is, you know? Yeah. I feel like I made great choices as a child.

Brett Benner 21:44

Yeah, it's, it's also interesting too'cause the mu when you've take in the music component of it as well, which affects people I think on so many different levels.'cause it's not just the physicality of it and kind of, kind of what MTV brought when that came to the table. And there was suddenly a whole visual element to all this. And you're looking at like, I remember like just the eighties, all those boy bands of the eighties and the British boys, and they all kind of look the same. They're almost feminine, you know,

22:09

in

Emma Straub 22:09

their Yes, yes.

Brett Benner 22:10

And, and their look. And so it almost felt kind of. Probably safe. Yeah. And I don't think, like for me as a young person, I don't think I completely, I, I, I think I had inklings about my sexuality, but really not quite clear. But there was also this kind of safety, but at the same time, there would be like, you know, rain coming down or someone had a wet t-shirt. It was like, I don't understand what's happening. You know what I mean? And so there is such an element to it that kind of gets synthesized in a way that, you know. Movie stars were different'cause they, at the time then not like now.'cause social media, I think makes people seemingly more available.

Emma Straub 22:47

Yeah.

Brett Benner 22:47

But then when we were young, it was kind of MTV. I think that kind of made it all of a sudden touchable and they were so close and that kind of palpable like, oh my God, what is this?

Emma Straub 23:01

It's, uh, yeah. Oh, and it was, it was always raining. It was always raining in those mu music videos.

Brett Benner 23:06

Yes.

Emma Straub 23:06

I love that.

Brett Benner 23:07

Those, someone was always wet. Someone was coming out of a swimming pool, you know, everyone had tight jeans and

Emma Straub 23:13

Yeah.

Brett Benner 23:14

I remember too, the difference between like the. George Michael going from Wham, which was again, that kind of, and then suddenly showing up for his first Soul album and the leather jacket, and there was a kind of much more palpable sexuality to it. Yeah. Even though it wasn't, it wasn't gay or straight, it was just

Emma Straub 23:32

Yeah.

Brett Benner 23:33

Sexuality. Yeah. And it was so tangible that I was

Emma Straub 23:37

like, yeah.

Brett Benner 23:37

What is this?

Emma Straub 23:39

Yeah, I

Brett Benner 23:39

also remember that with Sting and the Police and that was another thing. Yeah. There was a video that Sting did for Don't stand so close to me. Of course, of course. He was the teacher course and then he takes his shirt off and I was like, I don't understand what's happening. Why is he taking his shirt off in the classroom? Why is this happening? But do you think there's like a, I think there's a certain, There is something that gets held on to that, that like, and again, this speaking to the book about this boy band that

Emma Straub 24:06

yeah,

Brett Benner 24:06

you hold onto this kind of memory and what these feelings bring about that you think, if I could just get close to this.

Emma Straub 24:13

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know. I mean MTVI wish my children had MTV, you know, I really do. Yeah.'cause like they love pop music and we listen to the radio and they, they are like real, like top 40 kids. But I just think about like the images that I. Inhaled. Yeah, like 24 hours a day. Like my parents were there, but like really,

Brett Benner 24:41

right.

Emma Straub 24:42

MMTV raised me, you know, and how important those were to my understanding of the entire world. I mean, truly. But yeah, I mean, do I think that boy bands make the the greatest music? Like is it the Great American songbook? No, no, but it doesn't matter at all. Like it doesn't matter at all. Like pop music that you encounter in those years, let's say eight to 12, those songs are. Are a part of you so deep. I mean, it's like. You know, it's, it's maybe a, a slightly more day class, a version, but like, um, have you seen the video of, it's like a ballerina, a former ballerina who has Alzheimer's disease and they play the music for Swan Lake and her hands start to dance and you can see that the music and the body, like, it's, it's in her body. Mm-hmm. That music is in her body. And like I said, it's like slightly lower brow, but that's how I feel. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like that's how I feel that I will be dead before I forget these songs. You know? Like I will be Right. God help you. Yes. Yeah. and how wonderful. Like how, how, how wonderful to have music. That speaks to your soul.

Brett Benner 26:10

Yeah,

Emma Straub 26:11

directly. Whatever it is. I don't care. You know, like my husband listens to like punk rock music mostly, but. You know, he was born in 1978, so like he and his parents took him to see Michael Jackson and Prince, and like, you know, he, he, all of that is, it's his DNA makeup too. So, yeah, I, I, I love it. And I feel, I'm sorry for anyone who doesn't have, who doesn't have this, um, affliction.

Brett Benner 26:42

Yeah, but I think that like even if you look at like thinking back as it's always existed, right? I mean, look at, look at the Beatles and the way the Beatles affected, or Elvis Presley or any of those people that just set off something in people. And even probably going back to like Sinatra.

Emma Straub 26:57

Yeah.

Brett Benner 26:58

And you know what I mean? And like I remember my parents, like my mother, just to have Frank Sinatra come on. Just did something, you know? Yeah. And he was, and everything that he represented in his kind of coolness and the, and the threat of like, oh, was he really involved with the mob? There's a danger to him as well. All of it. It's, it's such a mystique that we kind of create around these people. One of the things that I. Love so much in the book is as much as this is Annie's story, you do dip into some other parts and other people, and one of them is one of the members of the band, Keith. And early on Annie has a moment with Keith, which is literally just a moment when they find themselves at an event and she has a second to actually speak to him and she sees something beyond just all of it. And she says, are you okay? First of all. This kind of like moment for me was so that was like the crystallization of so much of the book and that feeling like I got that. I, I just, it hit me core deep that these two people saw each other exactly in this moment.

Emma Straub 27:59

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner 28:00

And that she saw who he was behind all of the rest of this. He saw someone who saw him really saw him. Yeah. And it's such a beautiful moment. It's so funny'cause it reminded me so much. And then of course I had to, I wanted to get the quote right. So I looked this up and then the video started and I, and I totally teared up, which is nodding Hill. And it's the moment when Julia Roberts says. You know, the fame thing isn't real. Yeah.

Emma Straub 28:30

I'm,

Brett Benner 28:31

I'm just a girl standing in front of a boy asking him to love me. And that's that almost to this encapsulation of the same thing. And it's, yeah. So because what you do with that and what you do with him. It's, it's the showing that God, these people are just people. Yeah. And they're just fucked up and crazy and insecure and wondering how they're gonna keep going and their lives are a mess. And Yeah. Taking the veil off it. Yeah. And I love that so much.

Emma Straub 29:02

Thank you. I mean, I do, you know, part of the reason that I wrote this book was really like, I've just wondered. You know, like I, I wouldn't say it would be an exaggeration to say that I've been like a hardcore boy band fan, like every day of my life, especially like my adult life, you know? Yeah. Like for many, for many years, decades even. I was like a normal person when I didn't think about boy bands every single day, all day long. But I have kept tabs on them. You know, like the way, the way you do with people you loved in elementary school, you know what I mean? Yeah. Maybe, um. Had difficult parents or something, you know, like the, the, the friends of yours where you were like, oh, their home life is complicated. Or, you know, things like that where people you think about from time to time who you loved profoundly for a, a window of time in your own life. That's, that's really how I, how I have thought about the new kids on the block. Uh, is that, is that I want them to be okay. And I wonder, sometimes I wonder if they're okay or, or what's it like, what's it like? What's it like on that side? You know,

Brett Benner 30:17

that's, that's it.

Emma Straub 30:18

Like, it's a, like, I know, I know what it's like on this side, um, but what's it like on that side? And so I loved spending time in Keith's perspective. You know, I just, I feel so tender toward him. He's a nice man. He's a nice man and like. He's got some issues, but he's willing to work on them, you know?

Brett Benner 30:37

Yeah. No, he, he, he, he's just a dude. He's a guy. It's such a weird thing, and I think about it all the time.'cause like with my job, I think about it a lot in terms of talking to people and you're, you're launching peti people potentially into a situation where. Career is beginning for many of them. Yeah. Yeah. And like, um, we joined, we did this rebooted scrubs, the medical show. And in the new version we have five new interns that come on and they're, they're effectively all unknown.

Emma Straub 31:03

Yeah.

Brett Benner 31:04

And I was ha sitting down with one last week,'cause I went out to the premier and I said to him. Did they give you any kind of media training? And he said, well, not really, but they talked about how we should present ourselves and those kind of things, and to be careful of what we're posting on social media. And I just thought, this is such a strange thing. And for so many people who get launched into this, they're, for many people, they're not doing it for the reason to be famous. Certainly, right. We see that with influencers, yes. Trying to do that, but they're just trying to do their craft and do their art, whatever that is. And suddenly. Every moment of their life is magnified and yeah, you beat people stopping you. And I dunno, it's just a strange thing.

Emma Straub 31:41

Yeah, it really is. And it's like, I think especially, I feel especially empathetic with, with people who encounter that kind of thing when they're really young. I mean like children.

Brett Benner 31:55

Yeah.

Emma Straub 31:55

Or teenagers or even people in their twenties where like, your brain is not fully formed yet. No. You know, and you're out there like trying to figure yourself out, trying to mature as all of that is pelted at you. Oh my God. Or, or if you're, you know, like a teenager in a band and you're on tour and you're away from your family for, you know. However long. I mean, it really makes you appreciate, I mean, to go back to Taylor Swift, like the kids whose parents are like locked arms around them, really protecting them. I'm sure that is causes other complications and other other issues, but at least you know that they're like being looked after and protected from the world a bit. But yeah, I am so happy to be a novelist. You know, like there are like, like I could sell, you know, I sell. Tons of books. I sell tons of books, and no one is ever gonna, I don't know, have a panic attack because they see me at the grocery store. You know what I mean? Like it's, I, it's just I'm, I feel,

Brett Benner 33:04

well, it depends. I hear you. But it depends. And look, it, it's like, it's like it, there is something to be said of having the bookstore and people are going to come to the bookstore and the hopes that maybe they see you. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Emma Straub 33:16

Yeah. So

Brett Benner 33:16

there certainly is that. But of course. There's also, I will say that type of person. Is a little bit quieter probably than,

Emma Straub 33:26

oh

Brett Benner 33:26

yeah. The, you know what I mean? Than, than this person who's

Emma Straub 33:29

Yeah.

Brett Benner 33:30

Screaming there. Heads off probably won. No one screams,

Emma Straub 33:32

no one

Brett Benner 33:32

screams,

Emma Straub 33:33

no one

Brett Benner 33:33

throwing the panties at you.

Emma Straub 33:35

Yeah. No, no, no. I would say I get, um, I get hugs sometimes. Yeah. You know, people say nice things to me all the time on the street. Or, you know, or whatever. But, but, but no one has ever screamed. Not once. Thank God. If I were, if I were in danger, I'm sure someone would scream,

Brett Benner 33:51

then they would definitely do it. One of the things that I, one other thing that I did love that you talk about with, with Keith is what Annie finds appealing, which she's, she's talking about her version of what she finds appealing of men in her fifties versus what she thought of, of men in their twenties, you know, and, and how that changes. Now they're, you know, it's whether they're good with kids or,

Emma Straub 34:12

yeah.

Brett Benner 34:12

Bends down to talk to puppies, she says, or on the street a very polite driver, someone who enjoys puzzles. I love all of that, but it's so true how we change that. Moderates too, as we get older and you look back and like what is actually really, truly important.

Emma Straub 34:27

Yeah.

Brett Benner 34:27

Um, and you, I think you look at it in terms of your partner too. Like you just start to look at it and you think, okay, this is a good thing and this is why.

Emma Straub 34:34

Right.

Brett Benner 34:35

I value you, I think.

Emma Straub 34:36

Yeah.

Brett Benner 34:37

Youth, we go for the exciting and go for the crazy and then suddenly you're like,

Emma Straub 34:41

you

Brett Benner 34:41

know what? Slow and steady is really

Emma Straub 34:43

Yeah.

Brett Benner 34:43

Pretty wonderful.

Emma Straub 34:45

Oh, slow and steady is good. Slow and steady is good. And, and I will say like sometimes the bar is really low. Like I was at, I'm not, okay, this is, this is a gossipy story, but with names Redacted. Okay. But I was at, I was at this annual books sellers conference last week mm-hmm. In Pittsburgh. And I was there both as a writer and a bookseller. It was great. So fun. Always. And I had. Like one-on-one time with two male authors in their fifties, and one of them was so lovely. So lovely. I wish I could tell you. I wish I could tell you, like just, just. So charming and not even charming. Just like kind and thoughtful. And we had a lovely, we had a lovely conversation and then this other author, I mean, they, they, they're, they're both incredible authors and this other author, we were together for about 30 minutes. He didn't ask me one question, you know? It was like, by the end of it, I was almost daring him. You know? Like I was like, okay, well then I'm gonna stop filling the air. Me asking him questions.

Brett Benner 36:02

Sure.

Emma Straub 36:02

And I'm just gonna see, I'm gonna sit back and see and No, not even, and I was like, wow, men, like men, they're, they come in all different, all different shapes and sizes and, and kinds. Um, yeah, I don't know. It was interesting, especially'cause like with this book, it's like, you know, these men are in their fifties. They are accomplished. They are extremely used to being adored, which is also true of middle-aged male novelists, I would say. And it was really nice. What I, what I will say is that I am gonna make sure that the author who I really like that we have all of his books in stock all the time.

Brett Benner 36:40

Always.

Emma Straub 36:40

That's what I'm going to do.

Brett Benner 36:41

What do you think are the gifts that age is bringing you?

Emma Straub 36:44

Oh my gosh, so many. So many. I've always been pretty shameless, like as a person. Mm-hmm. I've just, I've always been pretty shameless, but now I feel truly shameless. Like I just feel like this is what it is, this is who I am. Like, I don't know what it would take to embarrass me now.

Brett Benner 37:02

Wow. I love that.

Emma Straub 37:04

Like, I just feel, I mean, part of it is like giving birth where like you're like, anyone could see my naked body and I'd be like, yep. There she is. You know, but it's, but it's more than that. Like, it's not just my physical form. It's, it's really from the inside out. Say Lavie, here I am. Yeah. I mean, I've been working on caring less about what people think about me, you know, a work in progress. It's hard,

Brett Benner 37:28

especially with what you do. It's hard.

Emma Straub 37:30

Yeah. I mean, but I just feel like firmer in myself. With every passing year and more aware of my own strengths and, shortcomings, I feel like I know myself better and, I just have more perspective and, and, and the older I get. Not, it's not that I feel younger, but, but the more aware I feel of how young I still am. Yeah. You know, like sometimes when my children really wanna like neg me, they tell me either how old I'm gonna be when they graduate from college or just how old I am in general, or how old I'll be when they're of some certain age. And, and I just think, yeah, great. I'm as young as I'm. Gonna be, I am never gonna be younger than I am right now. And how incredible. Like, I just, I'm, that's my, that's my point of view on aging right now, that I'm never gonna be this young again. So, um, so I better enjoy it.

Brett Benner 38:29

Yep. And do the things you can do while you can do them.

Emma Straub 38:30

Yeah.

Brett Benner 38:31

These, these are the conversations that all of that I, my whole peer group is in now. Like, you know, what, what can you do and what can you still do? And, and how can you keep. How can you keep going and exploring? Yeah. And discovering, because yeah, the alternative is just nothing.

Emma Straub 38:46

Yeah.

Brett Benner 38:47

Um, I have to ask you really quick, because this comes up twice in your book as a reference. What is your favorite Stephen Sondheim musical?

Emma Straub 38:54

You Dunno. I mean, I'm not like the biggest, biggest musical theater head in the world. That's actually something that I have been acquiring as I get older. Wow. But I guess I would say. I mean, I just watched, I just took myself to the movies. By myself at

Brett Benner 39:14

Oh, to see

Emma Straub 39:15

yes. At like, it was like 10 o'clock in the morning. I was the only person in the theater and it was so wonderful. It was so wonderful that I sort of couldn't believe it. So I might say that one, or I just, I took my kids to see the production of Into the Woods with Sarah Baris. Maybe that was like two years ago now. And that one we also did at my summer camp. You know, so that one is like, that's deeper in there too.

Brett Benner 39:44

No, I loved your choices.'cause you used being alive. Yeah. You just reference it and then, um, sending the clowns. Yeah. In the end. And my first thought was like, I was so proud of myself because I'm like, how many people actually know this is from, but I, I did think it's, that in particular is one of the songs that was so perfectly picked for this book because I remember the, her first time I heard that song. It meant nothing to me. Right? Yeah. It was just like, oh, this is a famous Steven Sondheim song that Judy Collins recorded. Yeah. And now with age, it means everything. Yeah. And I like what the song's actually saying. It's like, wow, it was a great pick.

Emma Straub 40:20

Thank you. Yeah. You know what, what's So I knew that I wanted Annie to, to come from like as far from. The boy band world is possible and I was like, okay, like opera. She works at this opera magazine, so I I, when I went to high school. So my parents listened to jazz and opera sort of exclusively. Mm-hmm. So I had to discover, you know, MTV on my own, like they were not interested in any pop music, although my mom did like sting actually. And also Hall os the blonde one. What, Darrell Hall. Yeah. Liked it too. But, but I had all these other reference points that nobody el like nobody else cared about. Chet Baker, you know, when I was in high school, but, but I sure did. Um, and I took a class in, at my high school that was an opera, opera class, like appreciation, opera, listening, singing, and my kids go to the school that I went to and. The, the guy who taught my opera class still teaches there teaching music and I was like, will you go on a date with me so we can just like talk through all of these moments and,'cause I wanna have these opera moments and musical theater moments, things that feel really New York and that this woman would really know. And it was so fun to go through these little moments like the, the one that I love the most, that, like, I had never heard of this opera where at the beginning, the, the, the fans are like prostrating themselves in this, in this almost religious way. My former teacher was like, oh yeah, no, there's this great one where like, all these nuns are gonna get decapitated, but they just like want it. And I was like. Perfect things like that. Um, yeah, no, it's fun. It's fun. I mean, you know, it's, and and I'm so happy to talk to you about it too.'cause no one has asked me, no one has asked me about the sound time in there. No one has asked me about any of that. So

Brett Benner 42:24

I will, I'm glad.

Emma Straub 42:25

I appreciate it.

Brett Benner 42:26

Before we go, you have this bookstore. So I just wanna ask you, is there anything you wanna shout out that's coming out that you've loved that's coming up?

Emma Straub 42:33

Um, okay, so I'll do two. I mean, we talked about like stage moms a little bit, like, you know, or you know, Taylor Swift having good parents who just to be a stage mom just for a second, even though these people are not my children, two of my booksellers. Have novels out this spring. A woman named Albert Albertine Clark, her book is called The Bodybuilders. It's from Bloomsbury and she is so brilliant and fabulous and like our crowd at books are magic is like, just gonna eat this book up. Mm-hmm. It is. Fabulous and smart and terrific. Uh, and then another one of my booksellers, whose name is Alexa Bram, her book is called Good News. It comes out from Algonquin in May and it's a like a really interesting sort of naughty portrait of like a woman trying to find herself in the art world. And some of it is really funny and some of it is sexy and like. I just, I am so proud of these two young women, and it is the absolute joy of my life to be able to help them as much as I possibly can. It just feels like such a bonus to me that I get to help in whatever way I can. You know? Like, yeah, what, what good am I really? I don't know. What can I do, but I can, I can do this. This is what I can do. I can shout them out whenever possible.

Brett Benner 43:59

That's amazing. Well, Emma, you are delight. I could talk to you all day, but clearly we all have things to do like you have a bookstore to go to. So everybody please go out and get the book by independent if you are able to, but it's really fantastic. Congratulations on another. Thank you, terrific book and thanks for being here.

Emma Straub 44:18

Thank you so much, Brett. This was absolutely delightful and I really could talk to you all day and if you have questions about like cruise, going on cruises, you just let me know,

Brett Benner 44:28

like an expert I I may asking you now that you're. Thanks again, Emma. And if you liked today's episode or other episodes that you've heard of behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. Also, what would be really helpful is if you can go to your podcast platform of choice and give the show five stars so other people can find it, and I could continue to bring you more episodes like this one. As always, thanks for listening and I'll be back next week with another episode, and in the meantime you can find me on Instagram. YouTube and Substack under Brett's book stack.