Grant Ginder, So Old, So Young

In this episode Brett sits down with author Grant Ginder to discuss his new book, 'So Old, So Young'. They talk about the challenge of this particular book, moving from politics to prose, a Sondheim musical, the brat pack and The Big Chill, how small decisions accumulate into a life, the intensity of college friendships, and how he's personally handling being so old, so young. 

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https://www.grantginder.com/

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https://www.instagram.com/grantginder/

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Transcript

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Brett Benner 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett Bonner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I am sitting down with author Grant Ginder for his new book, so Old, so Young, a little bit about Grant. He is the author of five novels, including, let's Not Do That Again, and the People We Hated, the Wedding, which was turned into a motion. Picture star in Allison Janney, Kristen Bell, and Ben Platt. Originally from Southern California, Ginder received his MFA from New York University where he currently teaches writing and he lives in New York City. So I hope you enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I'm really happy to be sitting down today with Grant Kinder for his fantastic new book. So Old, so Young, which 2026 is shaping up to be the year of the cover. And this is such a fantastic cover. I love this thing so much.

Grant Ginder 0:57

They really nailed it. They nailed it.

Brett Benner 0:59

They really did. So thank you so much for being here. I'm, I'm just thrilled. Thank you for having, thrilled to be talking with you. Thank you. Thank you. Wait, I, I have to ask you, you just, you just got back from Japan, right?

Grant Ginder 1:08

I did just get back from, I got back from Japan on wood. I don't even know what day. It's, it,

Brett Benner 1:12

it was, I say, I gonna say, are you exhausted?

Grant Ginder 1:13

You know what I am. I'm like, knock on wood, knock on like every wooden surface in my office right now. The jet lag coming this way hasn't been that bad. I think that's because like we got back Monday, late afternoon I managed to stay up until Like nine, and then I took an Ambien with a melatonin chaser, and that really did the trick, right? So, right. I, um, I'm sure it's not medically, medically recommended, but, that did the trick. But for a while, I don't know if I, if you're reading like, so ballets, the calculation of volume Oh yeah. Yeahm, well, I've only gotten to the first one. Yeah. Okay. I'm like obsessed with them. It's like all I can think about at all I can talk about, but how she's stuck in. November 18th, I I felt like I was stuck in January 19th for like this extended period of time, and I was like, oh, I get it. I get it. Like I've, I'm stuck in time, but I, I'm doing okay now.

Brett Benner 2:12

Your first time there?

Grant Ginder 2:13

It was my first time there. I loved it. It was incredible. Have you been.

Brett Benner 2:16

I was there a few years ago and my husband had a, it was a work trip and I just tagged along, so I was alone a lot of the day, which I was completely taken by How easy it was to navigate around the city.

Grant Ginder 2:28

Oh, totally.

Brett Benner 2:29

Without any knowledge about anything, you know, couldn't speak a lick of Japanese, but, and also just the subway systems, how easy they were, but. Weren't you blown away? How clean?

Grant Ginder 2:38

It's, do not get me started. I am obsessed with it. I, the thing that I loved most about it was everyone follows the rules that you want them to follow in New York, but that they do not follow in New York. The fact that in the stairs going down to the subway, there's like an arrow going down in an arrow going up on each side and people actually, people do not cross that line. No, they do not cross that line. I would, and also in terms of the cleanliness. I would like eat off the floor of that subway if someone asked. You do hundred percent. And then I got back and yesterday where like there was like the first day of classes at nyu and so like I took the subway in to teach at NYU and I was like, this is fucking disgusting. That's a pit. This is primitive, this is a pit. Like the Ja, like Japanese jus must come here and be. Who lives in this hellhole, like, is miserable. Right? That's I'm, I mean, you're,

Brett Benner 3:30

yeah. I, I just was like, it was also, I was there pre COVID, like right before COVID happened. Okay. And I remember just going to. Shop or go to a restaurant or anything, just the, you know, money never changed hands. You push it down, you push it under, they pull it. And I was like, this is incredible. And at first I was like, well this is like, you know, is this too much? And then of course I got back and I was like, well, no one's getting COVID here, because there was no contact. It was literally I know, but yeah, I was, I was blown away. By just how clean it was, how respectful everyone was. Even being in the subway, it was like quiet and orderly. I know. And it wasn't. I don't know. It was a dream.

Grant Ginder 4:11

It's a dream. It's a dream. We were there for two weeks and I had so many moments where I just like couldn't figure out, like ordering food, for example. And you're right, they were so helpful and they were like, you dumb American. And you could tell that they were like so respectful. But there was like a part of them that were like, you're not doing this right. Like, right. You know? Right.

Brett Benner 4:29

You know that they were turning away from you and just talking about you and laughing at you. I, yeah. Oh, totally. Totally. Absolutely. That's right. That was completely it. I was like, you know, the only place I completely was like, oh, Starbucks. And by the way, I was just thrilled because like Starbucks had like different flavors. I was like, this is incredible. I know I'm the kind of cat's, like everything's better. Yes. And I'm the kind of idiot that goes to look for like, what Kit Kats can I get there? Different flavors to take home. That's

Grant Ginder 4:53

Oh, they have the matcha KitKats. They have matcha KitKats. They were delicious. Yes.

Brett Benner 4:58

Alright, well I'm glad you had a good time. I had a great time. Great time. Um, so. Okay. I, I have to go backwards in the book for a second before we get to the beginning and before we get into it, you say in the notes that you almost lost your mind while writing this thing. Why

Grant Ginder 5:13

I, I did, I, for, I think for a number of reasons. One, kind of, you know, uh, coincidentally I, or maybe not coincidentally. The writing of this book, I think coincided with my own beginnings of a midlife crisis where I was starting to reckon with age. I was having these moments. I remember they started when I turned 40 or maybe when I was like 39, where I would wake up in the middle of the night and. Literally not know where I was. And I don't mean that in some kind of like metaphoric way or writerly way. I mean that like literally, like I would look at my husband sleeping next to me, look at my dog, like look around the apartment and I, I'd be like, I don't understand how I am now 40 years old, married. Have a 401k, have a mortgage. I felt like I was 22 yesterday. And it felt like I had embodied a totally different person, that had this set of responsibilities that I couldn't remember having been given. And so that was kind of going on in the background as I was writing this book. Mm-hmm. I also think that I wrote 11 drafts of this book. And when I say 11 drafts, I mean like, but the, the difference between, I wasn't like just changing commas, like the difference between the first draft and the last draft. The last draft came in before edits at like 110,000 words, and only 5,000 of those words were the same from the first draft. Wow. So it was like, I performed open heart surgery on it. Many times. Wow. And I think that, the structure of the book, you know, you have these five parties and you have these massive time jumps, which narratively is hard. Con for me at least, was hard to construct because my inclination as a writer when I first kind of dropped into each new section was to rely on backstory to catch everyone up, which like. Doesn't work it. It destroys the narrative tension built into the conceit, which is you're starting each section in media res, and so you're just kind of like plopped into the middle and you're trying to figure out like, why are these two characters not speaking to each other? What's the tension going on here? Who is this new boyfriend? Mm-hmm. And so honestly a lot of it over the drafting process. And what I think made me lose my mind was like whittling down, right? And like the first draft had every theme you could possibly imagine in it from literally like workplace abuse to environmentalism. And, around like the seventh draft, I was like, what is this book about? Actually, if you drill it down, what is the essence of this book? And the essence of this book to me is friendship and time. Mm-hmm. And so then it became a matter of reduction and just taking everything out. That wasn't really about friendship and time, but that process, literally, there was a moment I remember it was like. Two summers ago where I said to my agent, I actually don't think I have the talent to pull this off. And he was like, well, there's only one way to find out. So I just kept going.

Brett Benner 8:24

I guess we'll see only, we'll, we'll see. Yeah. Alright, so you, you've talked, you've talked around it a little bit with what you've just said, but do you have a, an elevator pitch for the book?

Grant Ginder 8:36

I actually think the elevator pitch is, is what you just said, is like six parties, five friends, or I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I got it wrong. It's five parties, six friends, yeah, five parties, six friends, 20 years. Yes, I think that that's the pitch. It's about how we move through time and how time presses down on our relationships and the people we love.

Brett Benner 8:59

There were so many things that I, I was thinking of when I, was going through this. The first being sometimes merely we roll along, which of course does this in reverse, but it it that like this, there's a sense of idealism that is in all of these people at the beginning, you know, that, that feeling that you're gonna take the world by storm, that everybody feels like when they're graduating from, from college and they're about to embark in the world. It also. There's elements of showing my age Saint Almost Fire and and the Big Chill. I, I, I remember going to see The Big Chill with a group of my friends in high school and it was probably like, much like the makeup of this collection of characters you have, I think it was like four girls and two gay guys, like both of us didn't even know yet. But like we all go see The Big Chill and I remember walking out and like all being so smart at 16 years old and like looking at my friends and being like, oh my God, that is totally. Us. Yeah.

Grant Ginder 9:57

Oh my God, that's hilarious. I'm gonna reveal something right now, so I, I'm gonna like, work backwards from those, those texts, those like seminal texts that you mentioned first is like a huge reveal, which I've never seen the big show. So, which is, I've never seen it. I think that for me, so first of all, the, the soundtrack is like, is like seared into my brain because my parents would play the cassette tape literally on loop during long car trips. And so I have the, the soundtrack gives me like PTSD of like driving, you know, for seven hours in like a rickety suburban. So there's that. I do though, like people, a number of people have made the comparison, which I obviously am, am super flattered by, because I think for a, for a generation that's like such a sure a, a touchstone and like part of this sort of generational mythology, Santa almost fire. I love like any Brad Pack movie, like sign me up. I'm so glad though. You mentioned Mely, we roll along. Because really kind of the two, I'll call them texts that were,, like front and center in my mind while I was writing this, were merely mm-hmm. And also James Salter's light years, which is less about. Friendship, though there are certainly elements of friendship in it, but more about moving through time, and how time, what time does to I idealism. And it's funny, I was kind of connecting this back to what I was talking about before, about losing my mind. I, I went to see the Merrily Revival on Broadway with Jonathan GR while I was in the middle of losing my mind. And it was. Seeing it and realizing like, oh, like it was something clicked and I was like, that's what this book is about. This book is about friendship and time and like get rid of the rest of the bullshit and focus on those two things.

Brett Benner 11:51

There's also, weirdly, I was thinking about this last night. It reminds me of the whole, bigger story arc. Tales of the city. I'm talking about over seven. Over seven books, and I'm thinking specifically of that character of Maryanne Singleton. Mm-hmm. Who goes from this kind of, you know, you enter this world through her and who she becomes over course. Yeah. These, you know, novels that he wrote. And it was very much that to me too, because I think one of the things that you do so well in this is there's no person that's, well, maybe Adam, but I was gonna say there's no person that's, you know, just definitively like a good person or a bad person. Yeah. Like they're just going through what they're going through. Yeah. Which is kind of life.

Grant Ginder 12:29

That was really important to me. I, I don't like writing people that are like reduced into single labels as good or bad or likable or unlikable because I don't think any of us can be reduced into those single labels. Like even Adam. I think that there's something a little bit self-righteous about him and his goodness that is oppressive to, to the people around him. But yeah, I mean, just people moving through the world and reacting and at times being selfish and at times not being selfish. And that was really important to me.

Brett Benner 13:03

I have to, well, I have to start by telling you this thing and then I'll go into the question, which is, I had read Ellis's the Shards. I dunno if you've ever read that. I have it. I'm like, dying to though. I'm dying to. Okay. Well, it's. This, private school in Los Angeles, which is the school that my kids went to, but I read the book and was like, I blown away by it. But a good friend of mine had been at Buckley with Brett during, oh my gosh, these times. And she said, these are all. My friends, and she said, these are everybody I know. He just renamed them. So I was thinking about this when, and you were pulling this together with these six characters, I thought, were you pulling from parts of your own life or were they amalgamations of things or were they just even in terms of their professions? And who did you start with?

Grant Ginder 13:50

That's a great question. Um, they're all amalgamations of people and frankly like parts of myself, right? I, I think that all of these characters are kind of bits of myself and all of them contain bits of me. And you know, when you're writing a character, they start with sort of like an idea, that's based off of someone, or again, some part of yourself. But then that character ends up growing and changing and evolving and kind of taking on a life of their own. And then by the time the book is finished, they're so far away from the inspiration that started them. You can't even remember. That the grain that, that, you know, that, that led to them. What character did I start with? I, you know, I think that I started with Mia. I think that she's, it was always our way into the story. Yeah. And I think that she's probably the. The closest to an avatar for a bit of me in terms of neuroses and professional anxieties. She came first. And then the other ones followed. Right. Kind of building out this group. You know, one thing that was, that was hard or not hard, but changed over the course of the 11 drafts and me almost going to the psych ward as I was writing this book, is that I think that when you start writing a book that there's a danger that each character represents. In your mind a concept. Or, or a theme. And that I think is, is not good because going back to something that you said earlier, characters need to be real people. And real people are not concepts or themes. They're, uh, a big, messy knot of complications. And so I had to be really careful. As I was revising and revising, and revising that these characters didn't fall into these set thematic categories, they also wondered. And I, I would think this would be a hard thing to do, but did your opinions of the characters change as you went through it? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There were like some characters who I started out really loving to write, and then by the end I was like, oh God. And then other characters that I, I really fell in love with and loved writing. And so yeah, that was like a, a, a tough thing to balance. And I think often when you're kind of falling out of love with a character, you have to start asking yourself like. Well, what's going on? If, if this character is no longer appealing to me, it's not gonna be, it must not be very interesting for a reader or engaging, or illuminating in some way for a reader. And so, what am I doing right? And I think often when, when that happens, my, my go-to is like, okay, well let's have them make a bad choice. And like, let's s see how that bad choice reveals something about them.

Brett Benner 16:49

Interesting. Now, are you somebody that technically marks it out enough that you say, I know what this arc, where this character is gonna be, or you have a more generalized and let it kind of reveal itself?

Grant Ginder 16:59

Really general. Really general. Um, I usually think that I have a really set idea about how things are gonna work out, but once I get into it, I think that you have to be willing to. Like, throw that out. Like when, when things start evolving in a way that you didn't anticipate, you have to allow there to be room for kind of these creative detours. Otherwise, like the, the, the book becomes, I dunno how to describe it, like too tidy, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so I have, I, I usually start with a general idea. Yeah.

Brett Benner 17:33

I think one of the big themes of the book too is, you know, we talk about time, you said before, friends and time, but it's also. How a person's life changes so radically from what you think it's gonna be. I was looking and I was looking, I even looking back at you, I was like, I was shocked to find out that you were in college, a former political aid and that you worked for former representative Rebecca Sanchez, and then you were a speech writer for John Podesta. Yeah. So it just made me think, were you interested in politics in the beginning? Was that something you thought you were gonna go into?

Grant Ginder 18:04

Yeah, I, and I still am. And to be clear, like I loved speech writing. On. I thought it was fascinating I mean it's, it's, it's storytelling. Creating narratives and is, you know, and, and stories were such a powerful rhetorical tool. And so I loved it and I thought it was really, really interesting. I loved writing fiction more, because that like is, and I loved sort of creating worlds on my own. But you know, it's kind of going back to, to what you were saying earlier about your life. You make all these little decisions and at the time that you're making them. Sometimes you don't even know that you're making them, right? Correct. But then you look back, you look back 20 years later and you're like, holy shit. That tiny decision that I wasn't even aware that I was making has. Had such a huge bearing on my life and where it's turned out. And so when I was speech writing, you know, it's as simple as like, I was going through a really bad breakup. Mm-hmm. And I had had my heart broken for the very first time. Um, right now, now we're very good friends, but at the time I, it was my first boyfriend and he broke up with me and I had my heart broken and was feeling like, I don't know. How to go on and I don't wanna see anyone. And so I kind of like squirreled myself away and wrote my first book, which like I wrote at 24, which is an age at which unless you're Smith like no one should be writing a book and I buy. By like some curse or blessing. I kind of think it's a curse. It ended up getting published, and now I am on a lifelong quest to find every copy and burn it. But it when that, I really enjoyed the process and it kind of like the process. Not the book, but the process kind of like healed me and got me out of this breakup. And I was living in DC but I kind of wanted to be in New York and all my friends were in New York. And so I applied to get my MFA and like ended up getting my MFA. And then one of my best friends, like two very good friends of mine were living in New York together and a room opened up in their apartment. And so I was like, why not? And managed to convince my bosses in DC to let work from New York. And it was just like this, like little chain of things. Resulted in now I write fiction for living and teach writing at NYU. And so I think the book plays into that as well, right? These, these tiny little decisions that we make that over the years really accumulate into a life.

Brett Benner 20:36

Yeah. Well, and this is very much what you talked about in the beginning where, um, Sasha is talking about this and she said she's been having this, this is almost verbatim what you had said. She had this strange experience of waking up in the middle of the night not knowing who she was. That was the only way to describe it. The feeling wasn't figurative but literal. When she looked around her bedroom and Tribeca, she didn't recognize her life. How would you become so old, so young? It was, if she'd taken over the body of another character, one who was a wife and mother and was now expected to play its part. Yeah, I mean like when I, sorry. I think there's so many people, and I think that's why this is gonna resonate with so many people because so many of us feel that, and you're looking back and saying, my mother used to say it to me all the time. She used to be like, how did I get here? Like, how did, yeah, how did this become. Life. And of course I was like, whatcha talking about? It's amazing. But you know, then the, but the resonance, it's, it's like this kind of a, a sliding doors type thing. Yeah. Of what if one little thing, like you're talking about these tiny decisions that you make that add up to something larger and what would've happened if something would've been off slightly or you did, made the decision not to do. Mm-hmm. So and so I had an actress once say to me, we're all one or two. Bad mistakes from being like destitute and homeless. And that so resonated with me, you know, for like an artist to say that because she wasn't wrong. And like, you never know, like what can be something that you can do that like completely turfs you and sets you back versus the thing that propels you forward and all these little building blocks of life.

Grant Ginder 22:13

Yeah. So like, you know, going back that that Sasha moment is one of. I don't know a favorite is the right word, but is, is a moment in the book that is probably the most important thematically. And I think, and is also going back to what we were talking about before for inspiration of characters is, is literally drawn from my life. Like that feeling that I had in the middle of the night is the like. Core feeling of this book, and so I wanted to work it in somewhere, but, but yeah, I mean, the idea of that you make these decisions just on the fly. And you, you think that they're, they're meaningless, but they're not. And suddenly you find yourself as Sasha does, waking up at Tribeca, staring up at the ceiling, being like, how the fuck am I a mother and a wife and mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where did you know? Where did the time go?

Brett Benner 23:06

It also tethers you. All these things that start to tether you more in your life, so to speak, and you know. My father always used to say to me, you know, you're young. You have your whole life ahead of you. And I used to always say that, oh, I'm young. I have my whole life ahead of you. And suddenly you don't, you don't. Um, you know, there's more, and I could speak for myself. There's more in the back than there is in the front. Right? Yeah. And, and so. We end up and that's what this book does so much and so successfully. There is that nostalgia of looking back and thinking, you know, thinking of all these things. How did we end up here? How did we get here? Good or bad? Because there's moments you were like, I'd love to parachute out of this moment right now. Mm-hmm. And, and be somewhere else. Do you still have a friends group from college?

Grant Ginder 23:52

I do, I, you know, there we're like a little bit scattered. Um, I have, one of my really good friends lives in Boston with his wife. Now I have another really good friend who lives, in the Hudson Valley. And then my best friend lives, she lives in London or outside London, in Brighton with, with her wife. And so we're, we're a little bit scattered, but, but there's still people who I'm in contact with. And that I. I feel like home in a way that, you know, I have other wonderful, wonderful friends in the city that I see much more often and talk to probably much more often. But there is a level of history and shared experience and memory. And I think the other thing that's really special and and meaningful about friendships from college is that these are people that like knew you when you were a different person. Yeah, and have watched you change, have both resisted you changing and have ultimately if you're still friends with them, have allowed you to change with a level of. Grace and, compassion that forms this, this really special bedrock for the friendship. And so I think that those friendships are really important. Even if, if, you know. They're not as present as the friendships that sort of make up my daily life, here in New York.

Brett Benner 25:27

Sure. And it's part of that too is like you were saying, it's just the familiarity of that person. Yeah. It's like putting on a, a, a really comfortable sweater. Um, and to have this thing that you went through and thing that you were bonding on in this, you know, it's like, it's, I remember saying to my kids. Especially my daughter who is a highly social individual. I was like, well, high school isn't the real experience, right? Yeah. College is the real experience. Yeah. College is the time just because of the intensity and, and it's the first time you're not around your parents, you're making decisions and you're in a very, it's a safety net, right? Because you know everything's being paid for. You probably have a meal plan. You have all these things that you don't have to think about in terms of life, except for I better go to class. Totally. And then the other times I can just party and fuck. You know, and Yeah, and, and so it really, it's like that's really what it becomes and suddenly you get out, like I'm watching my son who's about to graduate and thinking he's about to embark on exactly where this kind of book launches off. Yeah. Where you're going out, you know, you're going off in life and thinking all the infinite possibilities of what can potentially happen. And that's, yeah. Kind of incredible.

Grant Ginder 26:37

Yeah. I mean, college is this weird, I was talking about something about the other day, like college is this like weird greenhouse for friendships, right? Like you only have four years with these people. Yeah. And yet you emerge like. So fucking close. Yeah. And with this incredible shared history that again like, serves as this amazing foundation and, but it's like all happened in this like weird hot house where you're, you know, as you point out, you're like, eating and dining halls together, partying and fucking, and like not going to class and like, and it just, it creates these incredible friendships. Yeah. It's also interesting, some of your characters in the book, and I, and I won't get into spoilers, but some of the characters get involved with each other, like in, in that. Timespace and how that kind of progresses. I'm so curious. Were you ever, I mean, have to get, I'm not asking for the details, but were you, did you ever date someone in college that you still keep up with? I did. I, I'm not, I'm not gonna like name names. I, I, no, no, no. I, I didn't. But there was, there is a friend of mine that we, we used to sleep together in college. And, um, now he and his husband live just outside the city and we get dinner probably every six weeks now. And, you know, laugh about how we used to sleep together in college. I mean, that's the other thing is that like, I feel like in college the relationships you have end up being. So tremendously fluid, right? Yeah. And you're like trying everything out. Um, and so you end up with these friends where you're like, I've seen you naked multiple times.

Brett Benner 28:17

Yeah. I remember, college was the first guy that I dated. And it was very, it was very intense. It was the first time I ended up having my heart broken. Yeah. Again, going through all that and then now, you know, I'll, and I see him periodically. I would see him in LA and, you know, we'd get together and have dinner and just talk. And he's been, he's been married actually twice since then. But it's, it is, it's such a weird moment of sitting with that person and thinking, like you just said, I've seen you naked and just what we've. What we've honestly gone through, shared and gone through. Yeah. And then also like how did that ever happen? Which also just goes to show you changed, but also like changed, right. Also, yeah. It's like, like really, like I cannot believe that I was out of my mind about you and You know, couldn't get over you. Totally. And here we are so many years later and I'm like, what? Yeah. So now as, as you've gotten through the book, how have you rectified with this question of that you're talking about in the beginning about being so old, so young, how are you, how do you find yourself handling it?

Grant Ginder 29:15

You know, it's one of those things where I don't, I don't know if you get over it ever. I mean, I remember my grandmother before she passed away saying like, I still feel like I'm 20, you know, and like talking to my mom and she is, my mom's 75. And she'll say to me sometimes like, how the fuck am I 75? And I think it's a feeling that, it's a funny feeling because it's one that is so universal. Yeah. Right. Everyone at some point, Zadie Smith said this on an interview of Fresh Air recently, and I thought it was so great. Like, like age is structural. Like you, it doesn't matter who you are, right? There are other parts of our identities that kind of separate us from different people and put us into groups and, and, that are, that are kinda unchangeable. But age is structural. Like you are going to get old. And she made this point like much more, you know, much more eloquently than I have. But it's always such a surprise when it happens. And like we are people, like we have sent people to the fucking moon, right? We, we devised quantum physics and yet every single person is shocked by the fact that they got old. Yeah. And like it was supposed to happen to everyone else, but it was never supposed to happen. Me. And so like I think that I'm not expecting to get over it. I am more expecting hopefully to be not so surprised when the realization comes again in another wave.

Brett Benner 30:58

Yeah. And it's the physical waves. That's what I find. Yeah. 'cause I do find that I'm like looking at it in like, I didn't hear this 80th miss thing Smith interview, but it is that thing where, and like you're. Your grandmother said, and I've said this to so many people, all of your hopes, dreams, aspirations, none of that changes. Right? Right. Everything inside is still there. It's just that the external shell begins to change. Yeah. And so the way people interact with you is differently and the way that. You kind of go through your life is different. Yeah. And so that's when it gets strange or it gets strange that suddenly it's nine o'clock and you want nothing more than to crawl into bed. And it sounds like the, you're, you're, you know, at five o'clock in the day, you're dreaming about the moment that you can crawl into bed and, and be asleep. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like I find it very hard. It's the little details. It's the fact that suddenly I have eyebrow hairs that are growing straight out.

Grant Ginder 31:53

Oh my God. Do not even get me started about the eyebrow hairs,

Brett Benner 31:56

like, it's like how it's the most, or the ears, or like the white hair in the nose that feels like someone has put fishing wire in your nose. It's so painful. Like all of it.

Grant Ginder 32:07

I have had plantar fascitis for like two months. Two months. Yeah. I like, my feet just hurt. And I'm like, when did that happen? Like when, like, how is this possible? Right.

Brett Benner 32:19

Or somebody's saying to me the one day, like, how can I be asleep and wake up and my shoulder hurts? Like, what were they doing in bed? That, and I'm, and I'm laughing about this with so many of my current friends now, where we'll literally say, it seems like the rundown becomes like, how is everyone feeling and how is this Yeah. And how Oh, totally, totally. You. Oh my God. And you're giving this whole litany of things. And it's also the fact too and of, of the suddenly becoming the invisibility thing, right? Where because you're getting older, you suddenly, all cache has gone. You lose it all. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Just talking about the surprise, getting older.

Grant Ginder 32:58

My husband brought up this point, which I think is so true, where like you'll, you'll be like sitting in a restaurant and you'll like look around at tables and you'll be like, God, look at all these like old people. And it's like there are people in their forties and you're like, oh wait, I'm an, I am one of that. One, I'm one of them now. And like the 22 year olds are looking at me and being like, look at that fucking old fart. You know?

Brett Benner 33:22

And so well, yeah, I, not, I, I quoted in the beginning it made me laugh so hard and it's, you know, and I should say, one of the things that's so great about the book is there's so much humor in this thing, but, there's a line right in the beginning when Courtney, one of the characters that talks about Mitch setting up his gay cousin. Yeah. To date Adam. And he says, well, he's like 42. And Courtney says, oh my God, that's so gross. Yes. And, and that it made me laugh so hard. 'cause it's so true. And are better yet at the restaurant too, even though you're looking around and seeing everybody so old, your waiter seems like they shouldn't even be out, out to be able to wait on tables. Oh yeah. They look like they're 10. Totally. I mean, all the time I'm. Are, are you old enough to have this job? Oh yeah. Like I'm, I'm literally having like some 25-year-old the other night talk to me about the qualities of the wine that he's pushing on us. And I'm like, that wine is probably older than you are.

Grant Ginder 34:15

Hundred percent. Hundred percent. Well then like also there's like a weird, so I, at NYUI teach in the fall, I teach like this freshman writing class. And so, which is like even a bigger mind because for the past 13 years. Every fall, I'm just surrounded by people who are 18 and so you are like stuck, they're all stay, you know, it's like that Matthew McConaughey, like they're all staying the same age and you are getting older but you're constantly surrounded by like people who are young and it's just, it really screws up, reinforces.

Brett Benner 34:46

Of course it reinforces because you also believe in your mind, oh, you can hang with them. You know what I mean? You get it. You can talk. You can't, and you can't. You, you can't. You can't. Yeah. This is the one thing about having kids now, it completely reinforces that no matter how cool you think you are or how much swagger you think you have, or any of it, you're not, it's just you're not. So, I mean, my daughter, even one day, she. I remember her calling me and I had posted a picture of myself. I was like, you know, probably reading a book and I was in a, a, a tank top. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got, I was like, that white. Under the white undershirt. Yeah, white undershirt. And so I remember her calling me and she said, you cannot be posting a picture like that. You are showing skin and that is not a good look for you. And I was like, oh my God, ified. And I remember having this whole conversation that is devastating. I had a whole conversation with one of my friends, by the way, from college, and she said, it's a weird thing because your kids will not think of you as like, they don't believe you as. You know, you are a sexual creature. You are a person. You are just your mom or dad. That's what you're, yep, yep. And so anything else? And I remember thinking this could be so much worse. Like I could be like, you know, whatever. It was like so much worse. It was nothing. Yeah. So that kind of. Freaks me out again and sitting there, we talked, we started talking in the beginning about watching on Instagram. All these youngsters young who are posting and I'm like, God, good for them. Good for them with their good skin,

Grant Ginder 36:19

good for them. And like, you know, freaking out about turning 30 and you're like, okay, okay. Good for you. I know. Tell me when you hit 40 and, yeah.

Brett Benner 36:29

Oh, it's a lot. One of the other things I love about the book that you, catalog very subtly. All these different pop. Items or just cultural moments within those time things from NSYNC to At one point you have a, you have a character smoking parliaments, which I parliaments. I can literally, Eileen Caden in college, she's probably not listening to this, but sticking there with her parliament, cigarettes, and I remember like taking a dragon, one of those and like, this is air. Why are you even smoking this? But there is so much in there. Even gay.com, when you said gay.com, I was like, oh yeah, you must have had the best time pulling up all these different things from these time periods.

Grant Ginder 37:11

I did. You know, it's so funny. I am, I'm usually like, when it comes to pop culture references, I'm usually kind of wary about them because I think that they can come across. As a little, like winky to the reader. And so that I, I I, recently said to someone that, I feel like it's like nutmeg and cooking, like, like a little bit. It gets the job done. Like when you put too much in, that's when you start gagging. But because this book, there was really no way around it in this book because it's a book about moving through time. And particularly about a generation of people moving through time and so to. To situate them and to kind of craft what their world looks like at each of these very discreet moments. You have to rely on what the world looked like then. And part of what the world looks like is the music, the news events, um, the celebrities at any given time. So it was kind of fun. To that end being like, what was, what was playing on fucking loop at a party in my twenties? Like what song could I not escape? You know? And when I was 35, what were the big news stories and, and how can I. Work those into conversations, or the background of a scene. But again, I think like a little goes a long way, right? Because it, it, you overdo it and it starts detracting from the psychological and emotional. Kind landscape of the characters.

Brett Benner 38:49

I think you did your nutmeg. Thank you. It's kind of perfect and it takes you there, like it puts you at that place without, you know, great. Good. Without of a burden. So it's great. I'm so, the book is, is so good thank you. You have to please go out and get a copy. Buy independent. If you can, but it, it's really, it's, it's heartfelt. It's moving. It's so funny. It's so real, obviously. And, just based on like reviews I'm seeing, I think it's, I, it's really touching a lot of people and touching off a lot of things for a lot of people, so. It's great. Congratulations.

Grant Ginder 39:22

Thank you so much. Thank you. It's so, it's actually really encouraging to hear you say that because the other thing that happens when you write 11 drafts of a book is that it becomes word salad. And so, You know, I open it now and I'm like, I don't even know if this is English. And so to know that it's, it's resonated. You and with early readers. Really it's, it, it's, it's, well, it's great. Thank you so much for being here, grant. Thank you. It's been like such a pleasure.

Brett Benner 39:51

And if you've liked this conversation with Grant or other conversations that you've heard on Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. Also, I ask it every week, but what would be really helpful to me is if you can go onto your podcast platform of choice and give the show five stars and possibly also a review. All of this helps to put the podcast in front of other people who may not know it yet, so I could continue to bring you conversations like this one. I will be back next week with another episode, and until then, read a good book.