Patmeena Sabit, Good People

In this episode Brett sits down with author Patmeena Sabit to discuss her debut novel, 'Good People'. They talk about her path from reader to writer, the unique narrative style of the book, growing up as a young woman in the Afghani community, and the expectations that community and family place on the shoulders of women. 

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hey everybody, and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I am sitting down with debut author Petina AB Beat for her new book, good People. A little bit about Petina. She was born in Kabul a few years after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. When she was a month old, her family fled the conflict. Became refugees in Pakistan, joining the millions of other Afghans that had sought refuge there. They later moved to United States and she grew up in Virginia. She currently lives in Toronto, so I hope this episode of Behind the Stack. Hey everybody. Welcome or welcome back where today I am so thrilled to be sitting down with Petmeena Sabit for her debut novel. Good People Pet. Nina, thank you so much for being here today.

Patmeena Sabit: 0:50

Hi Brett. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Brett Benner: 0:53

I have to say, I was hearing so much buzz about this, I couldn't wait. To get a hold of it. And I have to say it has been a while since I, I literally could not put the book down. It is so riveting. It is so compelling. And the more I've sat with it, I, I'm just, I'm truly amazed at what you've done. And, you know, I kind of hate this expression because I think it, not belittles. I think you'll understand if I say to you, I can't believe that this is a debut novel'cause it's so assured, but I only mean that in the best possible way.'cause it's just such a, a well-written, well constructed book. So congratulations. It's just amazing.

Patmeena Sabit: 1:34

Thank you so much for that. And that's taken in the best possible way. So thank you for saying that. Thank you.

Brett Benner: 1:40

Yeah, I always kind of laugh at it because I think like it. It feels like you're diminishing the person's talent. And that's not at all what it is. It's just No,

Patmeena Sabit: 1:47

not

Brett Benner: 1:47

at all. Yeah. It's more of the question of like, oh my God, where has this writer been? Where has this person been? We do the same thing I know with actors all the time in casting.'cause you'll, somebody will see somebody home and be like, you know, why haven't I seen this person? And you're so amazing. Okay, so just a little background on you. You were, you were born in Kabul after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan became refugees. Virginia eventually landed in Virginia.

Patmeena Sabit: 2:13

Yes.

Brett Benner: 2:13

And we spoke before we started and you said you were there until you were 13. You're in Toronto now. Did you move right to Toronto at that point

Patmeena Sabit: 2:21

no, no, no. So my, my, family had made the decision. We actually moved back to Pakistan for some years. And, lived in Peau where we had originally landed actually after fleeing Afghanistan. That's, where we had fled to, to Peau, where millions of Afghan refugees had really fled to that city after the Soviet invasion. So we went back to Peau and lived there for a few years. And then from there, actually I came to Montreal and went to college there, and, just stayed. Yeah,

Brett Benner: 2:50

that's what I was gonna ask. Yeah. Where did you, where did you go in Montreal?

Patmeena Sabit: 2:53

To McGill. So I, I did McGill University and then after that, went on and did my masters at the University of Ottawa. And then just, yeah. And so just stayed.

Brett Benner: 3:02

Montreal is such an incredible, I love that city so much. I just think it's so amazing. Did you always know you wanted to be a writer?

Patmeena Sabit: 3:08

No, no, I, I say, I always wanted reading. I'm a reader first, and so writing to me seemed like something that writers did, right. It, it, it just didn't seem like the kind of thing, and I, I think I was raised also where writing was something that you did, people did on the side, like you were a doctor and maybe you wrote poems, or I think may very much within the Afghan community, writing is not seen as a profession, so. It never really crossed my mind that maybe someday I would actually attempt to write a book. So, no, I would say that I didn't really say that. I grew up thinking, okay, one day I am going to try to attempt to write.

Brett Benner: 3:46

So is this your first. What I'd say a full length story.

Patmeena Sabit: 3:50

This is my first published work. I would say that I have wr, I wrote before this or attempted to write and I, I look upon those now as very much apprentice works. Writing this, I realized how, how great the difference was between my skills and what I was attempting to do. I think in the first few stories where I was sitting down, but this is my first, I would say, yeah, my first published book. But I, I have like, I think everyone who has tried to write and written for many years, just things that you tunk. So I had about two, I would say manuscripts, but again, when I look back at them now, I think there's such a wide gulf between what those were and what this is, that it was just, those were just more learning experiences, I would say.

Brett Benner: 4:33

And what's interesting about it is I think, you know, people talk about the writer's voice, right? Or, or what is that writer's voice? And this is such a. Book to me because you are having so many voices and I, I think, I think that's amazing. So I wanna get into this in a minute, but do you, do you have an elevator pitch for the book?

Patmeena Sabit: 4:55

Yes, good people is, the story of the Sharaf family who come to the United States as refugees. And it really tells the story of this relentless pursuit of theirs, of the American dream and their belief in it. And then the unraveling and ultimate destruction of that dream after. For a horrific tragedy strikes the family,

Brett Benner: 5:13

and I'm gonna preface this for our people listening or watching and say, we're not gonna give spoilers for the main part of this conversation. I've never done this particular thing we're gonna do on this episode, which is we're gonna talk about the characters. I wanna set some stuff up towards the very end. I am going to do a spoiler. To this discussion, and I will announce it loud and clear. So for all of you who are listening or watching, you could stop and come back after you've read the book. There's just some things that I personally could not let Pet Mina leave without having the discussion and picking her brain. So, for all of you watching listening, I, you know, I'm, sorry about that, but I have to know. So, yeah. To me the book is really a lot of its heart, it reads as a mystery. And I don't, again, later we'll get into what I just talk about your inspiration.'cause I know what some of your inspiration was that started this idea for you, but I'm more now interested in. The way that you're telling the story, which I found so incredibly compelling, and it, this honestly reads to me like a modern Greek tragedy. and you have this effectively, this Greek chorus of people who are propelling the narrative. Can you talk a little bit about it?

Patmeena Sabit: 6:25

Yes, and, and thank you for saying that because that was some of the intent behind it was for it to read in that way of, you know, these people, these many different voices being this Greek chorus. And the inspiration for the way it was told was that when I began researching the content of the book, I realized looking at news stories, and again, I don't wanna. Spoil anything. So I don't wanna say, you know, what exactly those news stories were about, but I realized that a lot of the time, the way that these, some of these crime stories were told that the voices of the communities. Were absent you, you might have had a few voices, but for the most part, they were told by police, obviously for evident reasons. Either police, maybe social workers, maybe a teacher, um, maybe a few friends or family. I wanted to approach a story in a way where I was exploring the dynamics within a community that could give rise to. Possibly such a crime and to explore the ways that the community may or may not be complicit because these crimes don't occur in a vacuum. There is a dynamic within a family that is fed by a larger dynamic from the community. And so the idea for me was to ground this narrative. The central voices would be the voices of the community and the voices of the police, and maybe the social workers. Some of the friends and family would move out to the fringe. And so that was the main found of, the story would come from that community. So that's where the voices kind of, and that's where in this, in this story, the majority of the voices are the Afghan voices.

Brett Benner: 7:54

What I think is so amazing is you actually never give voice, so to speak, to the central family that this surrounds, right? It's everyone around them and how that's how we come to know them. It's almost, there's something. Slightly esque about it, that you're seeing all these different points of views from just who this family is, or who each individual person thinks they're, and I, I just found that so incredible. How long did it take you? Just to break down voices and who they were gonna be and the specificity of all of them because there's, there's a lot, and yet it's all very clear, as you're going through.

Patmeena Sabit: 8:36

Right. Well, I would say, I mean, and that's very much included in the whole writing of the book, and that was what was so difficult was, it took me 10 years to write the book. So I started in 2013 and almost to the months finish in 2023. And it's not like I wrote one book. It's for like, I wrote four books because there were so many moving parts with so many different voices that one, narrative line. So for example, just the, not to give anything away again, the family road trips. Became,

Brett Benner: 9:03

mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Patmeena Sabit: 9:03

You know, almost 70, 80,000 words that I then had to pare down to a more stripped down narrative. And, you know, the rise to the American dream became another, 60, 70,000 words that again, had to be then paired down, and there were many, many more voices, because by the end, when I, when I finished the final draft, which was for me more or less, it was more or less done, it was year eight. I realized I had around 80, 90 voices and I realized this thing had sprawled way beyond even what I had intended. So then it was the next few years where it's just revising them down to what you more or less see today. So I would say it was, it was pretty, it was pretty hard. Yeah, it was pretty complicated. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 9:42

I, oh my God, I couldn't even imagine. And that's why I was talking in the beginning when we started about, you know, the writer's voice, so to speak. And you're, most times, unless it's something huge, but so many books we read are. Small ensemble of people and you're coming from a point of view and suddenly you are taking something with, you have 90 characters, 90 points of view on something, right? And it, God, it was, that's, that's just the technical prowess of this thing is so incredibly impressive.

Patmeena Sabit: 10:09

Thank you so much. Thank you for saying that because you don't know while you're writing if that is how the reader will receive it. I can appreciate that it is that the reader has to work because there are, it's not just that there are many, many, voices. And not to put anyone off of reading it because it sounds like that, but also just, just the shifts in time as well. So I realize I do appreciate that it is, a book that makes a reader work. And so I just hope that it pays off.

Brett Benner: 10:35

Yeah,

Patmeena Sabit: 10:36

I'll

Brett Benner: 10:36

tell you it absolutely does. It absolutely does.

Patmeena Sabit: 10:39

Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Brett Benner: 10:40

No, it a hundred percent does. But not only that, yeah, there are a lot of voices, but I found the rhythm of it kind of took over so quickly and I was flipping through because you do have people repeat and come back and return and say more stuff. Yes. But there's, so you begin to get. That rhythm. I listen to a small section of this on audio as well, and it's for, for our listeners and our viewers. It's a full cast that,, reads the book. Right. Which is really cool.

Patmeena Sabit: 11:04

Right.

Brett Benner: 11:04

But the other thing that is so brilliant about it and. For people going in, it accelerates to, you know, what is this thing event. We now know something about what it is. And I kept thinking, well, where is she taking us now? And it opened up a whole new thing, which was like an entirely new set of conversations, of arguments that I just thought it was so, so incredibly well-crafted.

Patmeena Sabit: 11:36

Well, thank you so much. And that's, yeah, that was the difficulty. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 11:42

When I was looking some of this information up just about the Afghan community,'cause I was so curious, and this takes place in Virginia,

Patmeena Sabit: 11:48

right?

Brett Benner: 11:48

And so I, I had no idea that Virginia had such a large Afghan community and. The reasons that it exists there. So, and you can tell me, and like, this is what I found out about it, is it said, it was really appealing to Afghan refugees because it had a very strong established community networks, strong military ties in Virginia and. Robust support and services. And it's an, in Washington's case, like a historically welcome environment with high economic opportunity. This, of course, is pre this current administration. It also said that it specifically resettled more African refugees per capita than any other state, especially in Northern Virginia and Fredericksburg area and Fairfax County, Virginia has the largest concentration with six eight. That could be a little dated. There might be more, there might be less. Your experience when you were young, obviously this is also position, or perhaps some of this could have been conversations that you had with your parents, but what do you think is the hardest part for new immigrants to the US or have its been, I should say.

Patmeena Sabit: 12:54

Right. I think, what's really interesting is my family, when we came, I bel when we came to Virginia, that was in 19, uh, 83, that was in 1983. So we were among, I wouldn't say the very initial wave of Afghan refugees who were beginning to come to the United States. But after 79 when the Soviet invasion occurred, I'd say that was the first wave. So we were kind of in that first wave and there wasn't as large a population as there is now, but still. I think the two largest communities in the United States for Afghans have been among that first wave was in California, I think. I believe at that time, California might have had a higher population and Virginia. So these two kind of became, and it's interesting that since then it has. Has gone. Really, there's been exponential growth there within the communities. I think the hardest thing, and I explore this a little bit in the book, well, two things I think first the economics of it is that, these, you know, to be an immigrant to come to the us speaking from my own family's experience and then the. About the community as I was growing up is first that, you know, these are very much people who came there and who wanted to assimilate and to thrive economically. Um, but that's obviously a very difficult thing to do where your education is, you know, Afghan education that might not necessarily be, something that you can get a job with here. So it's really starting from the ground and building up again when you had already established a life. Back home. Home. So there's the language barriers, there's the economic barriers. And then I think on top of that, for that very first wave, as well, it was the issue of, I think culture and religion was very important. And it was how do we balance these children? Growing up and retaining, these values that are very important to us while also assimilating within this society. And I think while the children were young, it was easier, but as they grew, and that's very much explored in this book as well. Yeah. Is when kind of the fault lines, you really begin to see the fault lines. And that was definitely, I think you could see the case, you know, as we were growing up as well. So among those first, I think. Refugees and immigrants that came here. I think it was economic and then also the social.

Brett Benner: 15:07

Do you have siblings?

Patmeena Sabit: 15:08

I do. I do. I have brothers, yes.

Brett Benner: 15:11

Where do you fall in the order?

Patmeena Sabit: 15:13

I am, uh.

Brett Benner: 15:14

I'm so curious, and of course you were at that time, you were young, but I'm very curious about for your own family, their, you know, their religious beliefs, all of these kind of things, and like you were just talking about, how challenging was that? And even for you, was that something you were even aware of then and being a woman, which is a whole different set of expectations, I guess?

Patmeena Sabit: 15:38

Yes, and I think, I think that's something that you're always aware of if you grow up within a community where these values are important. And I, I would definitely say that, uh, my, the community that we lived in. It was very important. These issues of family standing and family name and honor were important. And this is explored again within the book. You know, it's tied to the behavior of women, within the family. So I would say that you grow up aware of it. You grow up very much aware of, you know, within the book they say there's, there's one person who says, you know when, as soon as your daughter knows, left from right, the first thing you teach her is that you know, what's most important is name and honor. And, and I think that's always there. That's always present. I was very privileged in that. My parents very much valued our independence in a lot of ways. But I think that was still always, that's always prevalent because the community didn't let you forget it as well, right? So your stance very much tied to your behavior and how good you are. So yeah, I think it's something that you're always aware of.

Brett Benner: 16:39

Interesting. In terms of the family, there are the parents, but there's four kids, two boys and two girls. But it's really a lot of the focus becomes on the older two kids. Right? Omar, the son. Yes. And then Zora, who is the, the daughter. And when the, they arrive in America. They're younger at the time, but Right. They effectively grow up. America. Can you talk a little bit about the parents? Because her father, it's interesting, I was looking in the beginning of the book and it talking about one of the, the neighbors, the friends is talking about when immigrants come to America and it says there, there are two ways opened. You, you can break your back working like a dog 40 hours a week at the Walmart. Walmart, and then work 40 hours more for cash, doing some pizza, pizza delivery. And at the end of the month have just enough in your pocket not to die. Or you can drive a taxi, but the, their dad really wasn't gonna do any of those things. He was incredibly ambitious, incredibly smart, and wanted very much as, as big of a piece of the American dream as he can get.

Patmeena Sabit: 17:43

Yes, Rahad Sharaf, who is the father of the family, is a larger than life kind of figure, and he is very much dazzled by the opportunities that America has to offer, and he very, very much believes in the American dream and believes that the other Afghans are kind of selling themselves short. By settling for, just for just being taxi drivers, right? And he said, you know, a man gets in a taxi, you never get out. And because that's what he's seeing around that him are these men who working 20, 30 years effectively to support their families by driving a taxi. So for him, he very much wants the American dream, and he doesn't want it on a level of, like he says, just a small house. To own a car to, he wants it at the level where he wants it at the 1% level. Right. And he believes that he is capable of achieving that and he wants that for his family. I think what's interesting is that Rahad, and this is mentioned. A few times in the book, he comes from what, you know, some of the community considers a lower class background, right? He's the son of a brick layer and class plays a very large role, I think, in Afghan communities and Afghan culture. Who your father was, what did he do? What was his profession? No matter, uh, how much money he makes, he still referred to as the son of a brick layer, which is very telling. But for him. America is a great equalizer because unlike Afghanistan, where he would always have been the son of a brick layer, and his opportunities would have been, I would say there would've been obstacles, him becoming a millionaire there, or becoming a very successful person just by virtue of whose son he was or whose grandson he was. In America, it doesn't matter. In America, all the Afghans are equal. They're starting on equal footing. He is determined to make the most of that.

Brett Benner: 19:27

It's so fascinating. And, and his wife, Miriam, she very much, she's the dutiful wife. One thing that I think it was interesting as someone comments later is that she does not, You'll have to help me here. She doesn't

Patmeena Sabit: 19:39

wear cover her hair. She doesn't wear a hijab. Yes, yes,

Brett Benner: 19:41

yes. She doesn't, she doesn't wear a hijab. Right. And which this one woman is saying, you know, I didn't either. But again, it, it was something that stood out to me so much because is she not wearing that now? Because she's in America and because of the perception of people. So that became an interesting thing to me, but also the kind of struggle that develops between the parents in terms of raising your children. Right. And, and how you're gonna raise your children. Yeah. And what you want for them, is fascinating. The two kids, Omer is the older son, but something you were talking about earlier in terms of women, there was two quotes that I wanted to read, and in the book, these are from two different. Family, friends, and this is kind of going off what you were saying before. A girl's reputation is like a cloth of pure white, the tiniest fleck of dirt, the tiniest fleck anywhere, and the whole thing is ruined. But another thing just as important that a girl's reputation, it's never just hers, its. She holds the name of her whole family. It's her father's name, her brother's name, her mother and sister's name. The names of her grandfather's. Grandfathers. And following up on that, just the converse with boys, it says it's one other family friend of Raf says, it doesn't mean the boys shouldn't be good. Of course they should, but no one is bad named or shamed the way because of being, but that the same way because of a son. If a boy does a bad thing, people will talk a little. But in the end, a man's faults are always. Hidden and you'll say, how can you make such a difference? And what can I tell you? This is the world as God made it. A man. As a man and a woman as a woman. They're not the same. Wow. I mean, let's just talk about that for a moment and I know, listen it this, this isn't just the Afghan culture, obviously, and they then, I think even the end of that quote, I cut it off before I finished it. This, it says they're not seen and judged the same even among you people. That's true with all your talk about equality and women's rights. In this country, a man is still a man and a woman is a woman. Deny it night and day, but in your hearts, you know it's true. It's so good. Thank

Patmeena Sabit: 21:41

you.

Brett Benner: 21:41

Yeah, and so right on like that whole thing and especially I can say what's happening in in the states and how this incredible. Rollback is happening. Like we're suddenly in 1950 again, as we're all having more discussions about women and immigrants and just equality and human rights. But I have this question. Do you, in terms of the kind of rigors in, in. The Afghan community or these things set up, do you think some of this is changing? I mean, do you think that, you talked about your own family really creating and fostering senses of independence. Do you think the more of this as time goes on, is beginning to happen? Because it's, in some ways, I wonder how you keep the lid on the kettle when everyone's walking around with a computer in their hand and being exposed to all these, which again, some of these are dressed in the book,

Patmeena Sabit: 22:32

right? Right. Well, I do Thank you. I, that's such a great question and it allows me to say that I do, I do wanna say that this is not represented, the book is not representative of the Afghan, it's not a monolith, obviously. Yes. Afghans are not ath, the community is not, uh, a monolith. This is representative of a very small, I would say, I don't wanna say circle, but a representative of community where the values. Are very, very important. And this is a very small part of the larger community. I would say that, and I'm talking about this fictional community that I've created here. Yes. Um, which may be reflective of larger communities, larger communities, Afghan communities as well. So, but I would say that even in the, in this community, and one of the characters says towards the end, right, that everyone comes here, we came here thinking that we would retain all of these values that we would not change in this. This, this way, and those were the ones that broke the hardest or something. I'm, you know, paraphrasing exactly what I wrote. Yeah. So I think that change is inevitable. I think that that is what they don't bargain for. And when I talk about how it's easy to talk that game when the children are small, and that's raised in the book as well, it's as they grow. And I would say that's not even just the case here. I would say even, you know, I, I've traveled back to Kale a few times. This is before the new. Taliban regime. And I was struck and I, and I went back with my mother, and my mother was struck by how different the standards of society were there. Mm-hmm. Even there compared to when we had fled. And the freedoms that women were afforded within families and how judgments weren't made in the same way. So, for example, women, whereas before they were maybe the only professions that were considered dignified and honorable were, you know, a doctor and a teacher. Now, women were going into different. Working for NGOs, they were going into politics and that wasn't seen as disgraceful and she was so shocked by that. So I would say that yes, change is inevitable. It's just in such communities where they are so resistant to it and like as it is in this fictional community, that there is that give and take and that the struggle is the hardest, I would say, between the children and the parents. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 24:40

Well. You've created the perfect storm, right, for then all of these events to unfold. But one of the things that I kept thinking as I was going through this, and especially having a daughter who's a freshman in college and going through, and, you know, it's a, there's some differences obviously, but what struck me so much is this whole idea about privilege and about, especially when it comes to money and success, but how apparent. Controls regardless. I think there's this kind of universality, even if religion's not getting involved or values that may be dictated by something else. So I think that there's this universality about this struggle that exists as children today, right. Are growing up in such a different way than I could speak for myself than I certainly did because there was of, you know. People just know too much and they know so soon and kind to keep that, purity, for lack of a better word, you know, or they say, let kids be kids, that kind of thing that, you know, kind of gets away from us. Okay. So I'm just gonna. Talk about now. I'm, I'm, I'm letting everyone know I'm gonna go into some spoiler quick discussion. So if you have not yet, read the book, pause here and come back after you've read it.'cause I'm giving you fair warning. This next part is dealing with spoilers. So, alright, inspiration for this. This started apparently because you had seen something about an honor killing. Yes.

Patmeena Sabit: 26:16

Yes, yes. There had been, in the news, there was a story in 2009, of an Afghan family in Montreal,, who were charged and, then later went to trial and convicted in, the honor killings of four female family members. So I. I had had, and I should go way back, way, way back in my undergrad days, I had done a thesis on honor killings in Jordan. And, the attempts to deter these crimes by a change to the penal code. So making the penalties much more harsher and in order, in order to deter these crimes from taking place in Jordan. So I had,, about, you know, one year's research or that much academic research under my belt. And then in 2009, this was after I graduated, I was working, this story, unfolded. I saw this story in the news and I began following that. And I began then just researching other honor crimes that had occurred in the United States, in Canada, Australia, Europe. And like I said, at the beginning, I was very much struck by how these stories were told. I was struck by some of the sensationalist coverage I was. Struck by the Islamophobic discourse that kind of arose from the discussion of these crimes. And like I said, I was interested in how few voices were there of the community. Um, and, and so, you know, the idea for the book kind of took hold.

Brett Benner: 27:39

Can you just really quickly too, in case anyone doesn't know the, the definition of an honor killing of what that refers to.

Patmeena Sabit: 27:47

Right. Well, an honor killing is indie, indie societies in these communities where honor is tied to the virtue or the virginity of the female family members and the behavior of the female family members when, um, a woman steps out of those bounds. And that can be an extramarital relationship. It can be a premarital relationship, it could be anything from a, uh, you know, an unmarried girl scene, flirting with a man in order to cleanse the family name or to purify. That of this shame, the woman is killed. So that is an honor killing.

Brett Benner: 28:21

This was a crazy statistic that I read'cause I started to go down this rabbit hole two days ago and watch all of these things on YouTube. There were like almost documentaries about this,

Patmeena Sabit: 28:31

right?

Brett Benner: 28:31

It said in 2 20 17, according to the un, 50,000 women were killed by intimate partners or family members around the world. Which is mind blowing. Staggering

Patmeena Sabit: 28:41

to me. Staggering. Yeah, I'm staggering.

Brett Benner: 28:43

Is there, do you know? You know,'cause you talked about. When you. I guess it's hard to, it would be hard to, I was gonna say, it's, it's, it's hard to police that, for lack of a better word.

Patmeena Sabit: 28:59

Yes. I think it's, it's, it's exactly as you say, it's hard to police it in these communities where they may occur. I think there, there are government efforts, like I said, in countries like in Jordan, where they, they try to change the penal code to deter the crimes. I think there's pushback, but again, it just comes back. How strong these beliefs are and how they have taken hold and are kind of almost, they are the guiding principles. Right? And so something like that, but like I said, I think that changes. People are speaking out, women are speaking out where it occurs across the world. In doing my research, I, I read a lot of articles from Human Rights Watch and the United Nations, amnesty International, that really. Spotlight these crimes and what's being done. And, and people speak out. But unfortunately, you know, it's still, it still continues to occur. And I would say to that statistic that is just statistics where it's known, but sometimes because these honor killings are masked through, oh, if you, if you read some of these stories, she was sick. She suddenly fell ill and she died. So there, there, that's, I don't even think that that is the actual number.

Brett Benner: 30:02

Interesting. Yeah. That's crazy. This is what I, this is one of the things I love about the book, but I'm just curious hearing from you in writing this and thinking of this, right, did you have a definitive answer to what happened to Zora in your mind? Was it that

Patmeena Sabit: 30:18

So I didn't, and the reason was, is the first thing I knew about this book was that I knew the ending. Because I knew it would be a family that was accused, but I knew that it would be, it would be an ending where it was just, it was, it was open-ended and I was really going to leave that to the reader. And I also knew that I couldn't make up my mind because I didn't feel like I could write those sections of the book. Authentically if I made up my mind one way or the other. So when I was writing the, the section of the book where it's really laid out where, you know, the, the, those who believe that they're guilty are writing that I had to believe a hundred percent and did that. They were, and then when I was writing the other section where they were in defense, I had to believe a hundred percent that they didn't, and I really ended it. Feeling like, okay. You know, maybe just as confused as a reader would've come out of it because, and I, but I, I, I was glad I had written it that way and that I hadn't, from the very beginning, the, the image of this family, the concept of this family was a family that was accused, but I hadn't made any judgments on whether they had or. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 31:25

Yeah. You're almost like, it's, it's like listening to you talk about it. It's almost like you're a lawyer working for each side at one point. You know what I mean? Yes, yes. And you have to defend them to the death.

Patmeena Sabit: 31:33

Yes.

Brett Benner: 31:33

So it's great. Yeah. This is what I love too, because I think this is why this book is going to, I think this is such an amazing book for a, a group of readers, a book club. Because I would love to then sit there and pull everyone. Did they do it, did they didn't or what happened? Because I don't know, by the end, I mean, I found myself being like, I went right along with your narrative of going the way it's presented, right? Yes. I'm sure it was them and then I don't actually know. And hearing their defense attorney. And I was like, I, I really, and it didn't, sometimes I get like, oh, I want something definitive. I didn't need that for this. And that again, speaks to how good this book is to me, because the result, honestly, a definitive result isn't the point of it to begin with.

Patmeena Sabit: 32:23

Right, right.

Brett Benner: 32:23

It's the, it's the kind of domino effect of everything that precedes it. So it doesn't matter to me.

Patmeena Sabit: 32:30

Right. For me, it was beside the point because the fact that it could happen and that it has happened is horror enough. The fact, and for me that that was enough to leave it at that, uh, without saying either one way or another. It wasn't the fact that they did do it, it was the fact did or didn't do it. Rather, it was the fact that they even could have Yeah. That this is even a possibility because it has happened before. Yeah. And so that, that was the bigger point for me.

Brett Benner: 32:56

Yeah. Well, Mina, the book is just. Fantastic. I'm telling you this, it's just killer. Please, everyone go get it. Buy independent if you can, but definitely check this one out. I'm so excited for you. I'm so excited for people to discover this family and find out the mystery. It's so, so good. So congratulations and thank you for being.

Patmeena Sabit: 33:18

Thank you so much and thank you. Thank you so much

Brett Benner: 33:20

thank you again, pina, and if you've liked this conversation or other conversations that you've heard on this podcast, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. Also, again, what would be really helpful to me is if you could go to your platform of choice and if you have the time, write a review. All these things are really helpful to let the podcast be seen by more people so I can continue to bring you conversations like this one. I will be back next week with another author and another episode, and I hope you all have a great week. Thanks for listening.