Behind The Stack

Ashley Winstead, The Future Saints

• Brett Benner • Season 3 • Episode 66

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In this episode Brett sits down with author Ashley Winstead to discuss her new book, 'The Future Saints'. They talk about the book's surprising origin, her connection to music and the music industry, what she would want to be if not a writer, music documentaries, and the raw creation of music vs writing. 

Ashley's website:

https://www.ashleywinstead.com/

Ashley's instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/stories/ashleywinsteadbooks/

The Future Saints Playlist:

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2p9jAqTrQucrizB3Rflw78?si=bxjvZ96ESo2ffLO8H-wl_w


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Brett Benner:

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or Welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I am sitting down with author Ashley Winstead to discuss her new book, the Future Saints. A little bit about Ashley. She is the national bestselling author of This book Will Bury Me. Midnight is The Darkest Hour, the Last Housewife. In My Dreams I Hold a knife, the boyfriend candidate. Full me once her books have been library read picks Lone Star picks, best of Amazon Picks, best of Apple Books picks and have received star reviews from Publishers Weekly Kirks reviews book page, and library journal. Her work has been covered by New York Times by the Her work has been covered by the New York Times, Washington Post crime reads. Parade, cosmopolitan. Good Morning America. Good Housekeeping, Seattle Times, and Southern Review of Fiction among others. Her books have been translated into over a dozen languages worldwide. An option for television. Ashley holds a PhD and contemporary American literature and lives in Houston. So I hope you enjoyed this episode of Behind the Stack. I am so happy to be sitting down once again with the lovely Ashley Winsted who we were just talking and, and that's been a while since I've actually talked to you. I said it wasn't since the Gza Reading Podcast, so I'm thrilled you're here to talk about your beautiful book, the Future Saints, which what a gorgeous cover. So thank you for being here. I really appreciate it,

Ashley Winstead:

Brett. I'm so honored to be here. Thank you for having me, having me back.

Brett Benner:

I was just thinking about, um. Because last time we were talking, we were dealing with a thriller and this is like a huge departure. Maybe not for you'cause maybe all of these things are inside of you obviously, but it's certainly for your audiences.'cause you know, you've written your rom-coms, you have your, you're known as like one of these great thriller writers, and so this is so different for you. How does that feel? Are you nervous at all about terms of expectations for your audience that you're giving them? So something so that's so different.

Ashley Winstead:

So I'm kind of like moving through these different options. I know that there's a part of my voice that lives really well inside of thrillers, you know, that like angsty dramatic girl in me, she's found her place in thrillers. So that won't go anywhere. But I think on when it comes to like the lighter. Fair. I say that and feature saints is full of like chuckle of grief and stuff. It's all of

Brett Benner:

grief.

Ashley Winstead:

Yeah. I call it a tragic comedy'cause I, um, I do try to keep that comedy, that lightness and that levity. But yeah, I think on that side of things, I've been working through where my voice. I think fits best. And I wrote two romantic comedies and I had a wonderful time, great writing experience. I've, I've discovered that I don't think that that's where my voice most naturally sits.

Brett Benner:

Mm.

Ashley Winstead:

Um, and I, so writing Future Saints, which. Funny enough actually started as a comedy. The, the very first version I can, we can talk more about this if you'd like, but the very first version of this book, um, was like a straight romantic comedy. I wrote it as my option material for my romcom publisher. Um, and you know, I was doing my little song and dance of pitching and I was like, it'll be great. It's a really funny romcom about. Death and like life after death and love after death. Yeah. And you're like. Bless my publisher at the time for being like, okay, that sounds good. We'll trust you. You know, but long, long story, and then it, it changed. But I've, I've found that I think this upmarket book club space where I can dive into drama more, I can dive into romance because I really do like writing romance, but I think sitting on the ANGs side of the fence feels like more of a natural fit for, for my brain.

Brett Benner:

Wow. One of the, I, I don't know if I'd call it like a tagline of the book, which I love. This is, this is a love story, but it's not the one that you're expecting. So you know, it's no surprise. It's really a story about these two sisters, and that's where so much of this fundamentally lies. I guess before we go in, I would just ask, could you give a little elevator pitch of the book?

Ashley Winstead:

Yes, I'll do my best though. This is my kryptonite. Um, it is like the, I can write a do doing this, hundred thousand words better than I can, elevator pitch, but, um, yeah, so this is a book about a woman named Hannah Cortland, and she's the lead singer of this indie rock band that is essentially on its last leg. She has been trying for her entire life to break this band out, achieve the fame. She's one of these, this is my, my newest reference for this, but. Marty Supreme, like, um, Timothy Chalamet figures where she's been locked into this goal for as long as she can remember. It's the only thing she wants to do is have this big breakout music career, and we meet her on the worst night of her life where she is bombing this dive bar, the only bar that will let her play her and her band play anymore, and in walks in Theo Ford. Who is the other kind of main character here in this book, and he is the manager that their label has assigned to the Saints to essentially get them back on the straight and narrow at least long enough to put out the album that they owe their label. And then who knows, you know, what will happen to them. And so at in Hannah's depths of her sorrow and bombing, she's. Drunk on stage, she's slurring her words. She manages to pull out one performance that gets recorded and kind of goes viral and changes the game for the Saints. And so it's a book about getting what you want the most. When you are least prepared for it and when you've decided that life is no longer worth living and having to figure out after you lose someone.'cause that's really at the center of what Hannah's dealing with is this kind of unimaginable loss of the person she loved the most. When that happens to you, what. What is it about life that, you know, makes it worth going on? So it's, it's trying to write my way to, an answer to that question, I think is how the book began.

Brett Benner:

Um. So I read, I read that part of this was, was it during the writing of this that you had your own kind of grief inspired thing? Yeah. Was that something, and, and you don't have to go into that at all, but was that something that influenced where this book went in terms of, uh, did it change it at all? Yeah.

Ashley Winstead:

It's so, it's so interesting the origin story for this book because like I mentioned, it started out as my option for my romcom publisher for Harper Collins, and I wrote a solid 75,000 words of this, like lots of hijinks, lots of humor. The Theo and Hannah sort of love story was the dominant kind of arc throughout this book. I ended up deciding not to move forward with my publisher with Harper Collins. And so, um, all of a sudden this book needed a new life, a new home. And in sending it out to other editors, I had this editor who ended up being my, the book's current editor, um, Caitlin Olson at Atria, and she got on a Zoom with me. Um, and I had written this book. Months ago, I've been working on this book longer than I've worked on any other project, maybe other than my debut. Um, I've been working on this book for years, since 2022, and I had written this book about this woman, Hannah, who has this huge unimaginable loss. Without having experienced that myself, I just knew that this, my main character for this book was this haunted woman, and after writing it, I lost my father. And I've, I'm very open about talking about this loss, and I've talked about it in the context of, of other books that I've written because it's something that's had a kind of profound influence on my recent work of the last few years. And so when I went, I, I lost my father. Weirdly during the exact same time where I had to make a decision whether I was gonna sell Future Saints this romcom to Harper Collins or, or not. And so, you know, it's like we're do, I'm doing like funeral plans on, on the phone for 30 minutes and then jumping on with my agents to talk about future Saints. And it was this very surreal experience. And I credit, actually, I had this new, uh. Ability to accept risk after my father died, because everything that wasn't life or death, you know, family member seemed like the stakes were so much lower. So it really convinced me to kind of like. Take a shot on the unknown and not work again with a publisher and just see what could happen for this book if I took it out wide. So we basically that, that's kind of hopefully the context for I get on this phone. Zoom with, um, my editor, this, this woman, and she says, I know this is a romcom, but I read it and I don't think it should be. And I have this pitch for you where I feel like what this book should be about is the relationship between Hannah and this person that she's lost. And I think that this should be an upmarket like book club fiction. And the, the love story should recede into the background. That would require a complete gutting of this novel and a rewrite. What do you think about this idea?

Brett Benner:

Wow.

Ashley Winstead:

And I was like, you are somehow the most prescient human being on this planet, because that's exactly what this book needs to be. And I'm now in a position to, I think, write it. Write that version of the book authentically in a way that I wasn't before. So that's exactly what I've done with this editor over the course of the last two, three years or so, kind of gone back and gutted this novel and rebuilt it as a different kind of book. So now it retains some of the backbone of. The humor and you know, sure. You, you have your side characters who are making quips very often, but it really, and it was a great learning experience for me to switch genres, take material, and switch genres. I think from a craft perspective, it was incredibly generative and useful for me.

Brett Benner:

And in a weird way, what a gift. What a what a what a way to make something really wonderful and beautiful out of something tragic. So. That's really cool. Are you a, uh. The, the band? Yeah. The whole rock world. What drew you to that to begin with? Are you are, are you a music person?

Ashley Winstead:

I, so it's funny, I'm, well, I'm a huge music fan. Like, yeah. Lifelong. This is actually something my father. You know, grew this appreciation. My father grew in me because he was like an eighties hairband, like heavy metal. When we moved home to home, I was, I was telling you earlier that we were a Navy family, so we uprooted every two years to go to a new assignment. And so we do these huge long cross country road trips, the six of us in my family, and the entire time my dad would be playing like. Limp Biz or Papa Roach or eighties hair man. Yeah, our family like would sing all of these things, you know, like the silliest people that you would never imagine this like family of kids rolling down their windows and you're going to hear like limp Bizkit coming out. But yeah, that's, oh, it's what I was raised on and I've always loved rock so much. My tastes have differed a little bit from my father's, kind of more the indie, indie rock scene. But I went to school also in Nashville. I was saying too, as well, which of course is Music City and even though it has traditionally leaned a a little more country, when I graduated from college in the height of the recession. And all other job options had, you know, fallen away. My peers and I that had just graduated, we were all very desperate for work and the thing that I was offered this lifeline was at a music business company. Oh

Brett Benner:

wow.

Ashley Winstead:

It was not something I had ever thought about doing, but all of a sudden accepted this, this job and made Nashville my permanent home and just plunged into the music industry and, um, was given a lot of responsibility for a 22-year-old. I was in charge of like these multi. Million dollar concert budgets. And it was, it's this very, um, particular company I worked for that did brokered sponsorship deals between, um, speak about precedent. But this woman who founded this company understood that. The musicians were gonna less and less make money from, you know, selling their CDs and their songs, and were more and more gonna make money while continuing with touring, but also on these big sponsorship deals of their chores. So we would broker. Brand appropriate sponsorship deals like Tim McGraw and Casey Masterpiece, barbecue Sauce, or John Mayer and Blackberry phones. Remember Blackberries, uh, back when those existed. And so it would be my job to kind of work with John Mayer's, tour people and figure out all the ways that the Blackberry team could be involved and like all the parties. So I'd get to fly around to all these different. Tour spots and like facilitate these meet and greets and these, these parties with these, you know, Blackberry and John Mayer themed drinks. It was pretty fun, but it was a very intense job also. And I definitely got, being 22, um, I got the sort of rock and roll lifestyle. I leaned very hard into, that late nights everyone's doing shenanigan sort of aspect. So I did that for about a year and a half before moving out to California. So really have, have been on the outside and inside of it. And I've, I've thought to myself that I, I have had this music book inside me that I really always wanted to write a book about. Being in the music industry, and I think there's absolutely a wish fulfillment aspect to it as well. Because if I could do one thing other than being a novelist, it would be to have the talent to be a lead singer, guitarist, really, you know, to be So this is, this is like, that's the fantasy, my fantasy that I've gotten to indulge in this book.

Brett Benner:

Do you sing?

Ashley Winstead:

Not at all. No. I don't sing. I don't, I have tried so hard to play every instrument under the sun. I am so musically ungifted. I'm someone that you don't even wanna be stuck in a car with me when I'm belting out, like singing along to all my songs.'cause A, I do it very loud because I'm picturing myself on stage and B, very aton.

Brett Benner:

I know I, well, I always love, my husband is like tone deaf and I don't know that he realizes it and I know it hard be like

Ashley Winstead:

me and him,

Brett Benner:

you're tone deaf. So every time he'll sing along to something if like even we're somewhere where like we've been a concert say, it always sounds like Bob Dylan doing a version of whatever it is because it's all, you know like, but I'm here to remind you of the, so that's amazing. I feel your pain. Yes, I your pain. But I also, like, I was one of those kids who, and I see it with my, I've seen it with my kids growing up too. I think kids have this a lot where you see something and you feel like, well, I could do that. Like, yeah, you'd see a guitar and like, oh, I'll learn the guitar. You know what I mean? Forgetting the, the idea that, well, this is gonna take practice. It's not just like you pick up an instrument and suddenly you can do it. Like, oh, I'm gonna be a dancer. Okay, well it's gonna take a little bit, all of it, you know what I mean? Yeah. There's this, wish fulfillment that happens. But I, I, uh, I love that so much.

Ashley Winstead:

If any of those kids are listening, may might, I suggest directing you towards writing because you can, you can do it.

Brett Benner:

You can be whatever you want.

Ashley Winstead:

Yeah, exactly. You can be whoever you want.

Brett Benner:

You can be however you want, but also know that that's gonna take a little work too.

Ashley Winstead:

Yeah, well that's true. Yes.

Brett Benner:

Do you have Spotify?

Ashley Winstead:

I do. I don't really use it. I put a Future Saints play, like my one thing. If you look at. Listeners look at my Spotify, they'll see a Future Saints playlist.'cause I did this in concert with, oh

Brett Benner:

my God. I'll add, I'll put that in

Ashley Winstead:

the, I'll in the notes of this book. But you know what else is funny is speaking of, those, these whims thinking I'm going to. You know, during the pandemic while everyone was, deciding they were gonna become like banana bread bakers, right, right.

Brett Benner:

And

Ashley Winstead:

fancy and baristas of fancy lattes and everything. My husband said, I think it's finally time for me to learn this guitar that I've had been carrying around here. So it has been the most beautiful gift for me writing a music. Book because my husband, when he does something, he does it. He has this hyper fixation. He does it a thousand, 10000%. So since 2020, I have been steeped in a world of. Him learning guitar, me being there for every part of it, watching every music documentary and musician biopic under the sun from the most like, obvious and famous to the most obscure. The amount of, I think I've done 10,000 hours of YouTube. Tutorials on guitar, just like watching it over his shoulder. So it really was an, amazing education for me. And my husband is now in a little garage rock band Wow. Of similar men living out their fantasies of, you know, like married, suburban fathers.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Winstead:

Um, yep.

Brett Benner:

What's the, what's the writer group like? Stephen King and Amy Tan? They're called the Rock Bottom remainder. You know, they're, they have a, they have a band. I, it's, I didn't know this. Yeah, it's like Stephen King and so much Amy Tan and I can't remember if it was a few other writers, and they put a band together and they were called the, they're called the Rock Bottom remainders.

Ashley Winstead:

They're living by dream. Dang.

Brett Benner:

See you can be the next version. I mean, you should get a group together, start putting out the feelers for like what writers want to join your rock band. But I love that your husband did that.

Ashley Winstead:

I know, but I'm gonna need them all to be, I guess I could be the tambourine player. I'm gonna need them all to be, or the cowbell player.

Brett Benner:

Okay. This is gonna date me and you probably will not get this. I'm like, you are the Lori Partridge of the group who like stands there with her tan. You don't remember, but you don't remember the Partridge family, I'm sure. But, um, you know, it was a family. Shirley Jones was the mom. But they were all, they had a band, like the family was the band. And like, what? I think Laurie Partridge's, the oldest daughter, she would just stand there with a tambourine smacking it against her hip. And that's, now,

Ashley Winstead:

that's, that's my, I'm the Laurie. Yeah. And I've gotta retreat, recruit some real talent. So,

Brett Benner:

exactly. Okay, so now I do have to ask you too,'cause I'm so curious. Yeah. This is like not on book, but it's based on what you just said with the docs. I'm so interested what docs you really,'cause I love these music docs and, and I'll tell you, the only two that I've seen lately have, have you seen the, the live aid one?

Ashley Winstead:

Yes. I like that was pretty recent, I think that I watched it. Yes. I would say the Elliot Smith doc is something that will haunt me forever. If people like Elliot Smith, credences, Clearwater Revival, CCR, that was like a big, big one. Anything that was like. It had a story that I wasn't expecting, you know, like it's like, from the outside. I mean, Elliot Smith, I understood he, he was, that's part of his brand is like he was really, going through it. So to see behind the scenes on that. But yeah, just a lot of fascinating narratives from behind. The curtain. And that is really, I think that had a really profound impact on the way I was rewriting the Future Saints the book, because I wanted to give that feeling. And so as much as I'll, I'll say like Daisy Jones obviously had an impact on the way I was shaping this book because I, you know, you get kind of multimedia elements in the future sites where you're getting this, it's this attempt to. Widen the scope for readers so that they understand the story as not just this like interpersonal story that's coming from Hannah or Theo's point of view, but as this larger drama that's unfolding on kind of a like national or world stage. And I loved the way that Taylor, Jenkins, Reed did that in. Daisy Jones and through her interview format, the documentary format just widened the scope for, for readers. So I thought that was so genius and tried to do it in my own way. But then there's, there's a rhythm to so many music documentaries where you have, you know, the, the outside people. It's like the, the storytelling. Not formula, but this rhythm where it's like, okay, the band is gearing up and everyone's got all this ambition, but no one knows how this is gonna play out. And then you have this pivotal moment where everyone around the band is going, whoa. I think this is something like, I think this is turning into. Not just our like pet project or, or you know, the small thing, but I think they're gonna be something. I think they're gonna make it. And so I was trying to kind of recreate that rhythm in the future Saints. So there's literally a moment in the book where from Theo's perspective, you have that. Like, whoa, I think this is bigger than,

Brett Benner:

yeah.

Ashley Winstead:

We realized.

Brett Benner:

Who is Hannah to you? I don't know if there was a particular person you were thinking of when you were writing her. Mm-hmm. She was an amalgam of people because I just looked at her and she reminds me a lot of Alanis Morissette during the jagged little pill era. But I dunno if there's something to be for you that you inspired you for her.

Ashley Winstead:

Yeah, I, so I really, for me, there's Leah, well, Baum, who is the front, the lead singer of a band called Sloth Rust, who is Yeah, I know. It's amazing. I never, their name's amazing. It's so, it's so funny and silly and they're, they're so fabulous. And she's this like amazing guitar player and I really looked at her a lot. I studied footage of her performing. Mm-hmm. Because, she, she's got this kind of like messy hair, sometimes dyed different colors. She wears big hoodies. She, she is in a lot of ways, kind of a direct inspiration for Hannah. In the kind of like her affect, the way she looks, the way she carries herself. And there's this interesting thing that Leah Webo of Sorest does, but I've noticed in watching a lot of footage of lead singers that a lot of musicians will do, and it's this like performance of coins or reserve on stage. While singing really like heavy lyrics or having a, the music, and again, I'm such a rock fan, that like the music will be really large and loud and. Emotional and emotive and their performance of how they're carrying themselves is like a direct contrast to that like very small presence. And I have been fascinated with that tension and the way that musicians understand how to perform. It's almost like, like an analog for me in in my writing and my craft to. Trying to capture really large transcendent emotions on the page and writing with spare sentences and words because you're trying to not overwhelm the feeling with, with what you're doing. So I, I guess I've been inspired a lot in trying to understand the parallels between. Writing as a form of art and music as a form of art, and I come at it with this bias where obviously what I am able to do as far as I'm able to do it is write. And what I would love to be able to do is make music because

Brett Benner:

mm-hmm.

Ashley Winstead:

For me, music is the closest human beings can get to collapsing. The signifier signified relationship, and by that I mean to like getting to the thing itself without any intermediary symbols. You know, like when you're putting things on the page, you, you, the writer, are absent from this experience the reader's having with the page. And there it's you, you're requiring. Your reader to imagine, and they're just, they're experiencing symbols, these words on a page. But music, it's so much more immediate and it's almost like you can conjure with sound feeling itself. So there's, there's something that I've been chasing my entire writing career about music, of trying to get there, uh, and create that music experience. A page, which I understand I'm never gonna do, you know, because like the page and the words are always gonna stand in the way. But yeah.

Brett Benner:

but I understand because I think are, they're both for either the reader or the listener. It is an emotional experience. Mm-hmm. It's like you're creating something, whether like you as the writer or you as the musician, you are creating something that's coming from you. Once that's out in the world, you have no control over that and where the person is, who's reading it or listening to it, how they're coming to it, and how they're reacting to it. But both things. Are very private for that person who's receiving it. Right? Yeah. And having, and you know, you hear people say all the time about this song gutted me or This is my song. Or certainly people go through life and say, I identified with this song so much at this point in my life. I have that I, and I think most people do of like, this reminds me of this. And same with books. Like if a book Sears You, you'll remember exactly. I remember reading a little life and at points knowing exactly where I was when I was reading that book because I was having such an emotional, visceral reaction to it. So all of that totally makes sense to me.

Ashley Winstead:

Yeah. And maybe I should give books a little more credit, Ben.'cause I've always, I, I think I have this fantasy relationship and I've actually, like, I'll hear other writers say this a lot, so I know I'm not the only one. Like with this fantasy that if we could just become musicians, we could somehow cut out, you know, the middle, the middleman of, of like pages and just present the emotions themselves. But I also revisited Hannah after publishing the last housewife. Mm-hmm. Which was a thriller of mine. That's the darkest thriller. It's. I talk a lot about bleeding on the page as a kind of metaphor for putting a lot of personal stuff in the future Saints, and I was rewriting Hannah, having come off what was a very emotional and at times difficult experience talking about the last housewife, which was really personal and raw in a lot of ways. So I think I, I was like really processing. Through Hannah, what it felt like to have to, you know, be public over and over again in, in talking about a lot of raw things. So that, that was definitely a seed of, of what she's, how she came to be. I

Brett Benner:

think what's so interesting about her and what you've done so well is there's a, there's a such a, women in rock in particular are like women in standup, right? They're both very male dominated

Ashley Winstead:

Yes

Brett Benner:

spaces, and very, for lack of a better way of saying it, testosterone laden and misogynistic. And so the women who choose to be in those spaces because of their. Desires and their drives are have to be of a certain ilk else. She'll just be eaten alive. And there's almost a certain kind of swagger and masculine quality. Yes. And what you've done so wonderfully, and this is very much about her relationship with her sister, is you show that softer side and that kind of tender side to her. That's not. Predicated on the typical rom-com or just the romance in general. This is not like a star is born, right? Right. It is. It is. You know, and that's what I loved and that's where there's such this thing that sparks it and makes it so unique is because you see her tenderness in her relationship with her sister. And I thought really fascinating.

Ashley Winstead:

Yeah. Thank you so much. I really, I really appreciate that and I'm, I'm struck, I think, something that I've carried with me is what, when I was working in the music industry, you know, hanging out with other people who lifelong, like they were working in, in the music industry, and it was what they'd always planned to do and I was. Orbiting in these circles with them. And I remember there was one woman who was playing a lot of her favorite records for me. One night I think we were just having like a casual hang, we were colleagues and she was showing me pictures of, you know, or just like records, and the pictures of the musicians on these records. And it was a woman, I forget who, who the musician, female musician was, but this my colleague said to me, she's like, do you know why I love. Music because look at all of these pimples and wrinkles on this woman's face. She doesn't have to like it. It was a woman, female rocker. She doesn't have to, you know, put on makeup and be beautiful. She can just exist. Warts and all. And I remember being very caught up by that because on the one hand thinking like, oh, you're right. That is so different from like, you know, actors or other people who are using their bodies as part of art. But also thinking to myself, well that's not, that's not true in certain sectors of music, right? Like

Brett Benner:

Mm.

Ashley Winstead:

You know, in talk or in other genres. And I think it just like cracked open this. Curiosity for me about expectations for women on stages, on the stage and in the field. And I think that that was something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about and definitely found its way as, as you were kind of pointing out into this book about Hannah and like how she presents herself and these expectations that she understands the world has of her. And then, Her ability to live or not live up to them and what, what a relief it is, but also a risk for her to have this whole other side of her that is this tender side, and it is, her sister has been like her repository of tenderness throughout their, their upbringing, because Hannah's had to be hard and tough. In a lot of different ways, not just the industry, but their family life to a certain extent. She's had to wear shields and her sister has been where she's put and manifested all of her tenderness and now her sister's gone. So how, what's she gonna do with that? Who's she gonna be? Where's that gonna go?

Brett Benner:

Such an interesting too thing too, because moving through your grief, which is such a private thing, while rising to success and fame, That is such an interesting element to this too, not to mention like, because the difference in one of the things you were saying is it is a different world in that now there's a different expectation with celebrity with because of the social media component and because of accessibility and kind of these weird parasocial relationships that develop and people feel that. They have ownership in some ways of a celebrity, of a singer, of somebody like that. And you know, you watch somebody like the differences between looking back at somebody like Hart, right? Mm-hmm. And those singers from heart and like someone like Taylor Swift now, and how vast, how vast it is and how it's, it's turned into a, Commercial machine effectively. And, there's people like Taylor Swift who are so smart in that space and has taken complete ownership. She is the, you know, she is prime example of somebody who has been,. So talented and so smart and able to work at to her advantage, but it's just a different, we're different

Ashley Winstead:

to know how to feed those parasocial relationships. That's right. You know, and kind of sustain it. And grow it. Yeah. While, while also, I mean, I guess I'd have to talk to Taylor Swift to know the answer to this, but while also, at least from the outside seeming like she's maintaining control because. I think, yeah, the danger of, and this is something, you know, like everyone, everyone who is out there in the world, you know, whether podcaster, writer, artist, you know, musician is, has to think about now is like how to engage with people who are coming at you as a fan, who are feeling like they, they know you, that there's this intimacy with you. Right. And I think Hannah was, once again, almost a fantasy wish fulfillment because. Her virality and all the parasocial relationships that people feel with her is a very one-sided that right like relationship. So she's almost like this fantasy that you can. Have social media working in your favor and people feeling these, this sense of ownership over you without having to feed it.'cause she doesn't, you know, she's not on, she's not on TikTok, she's not,

Brett Benner:

no,

Ashley Winstead:

you know, leaving Easter eggs for fans, you know, she's not talking back. She's not doing that. Which I think is like the ultimate dream that you could just. The ultimate artist dream that you could just like exist in your world, making your art for yourself or for whatever purpose you're doing it, and that like all of that talking back and the relationship with your fans, that that could be happening without your, your participation. Right. And I think Right, she only starts to get there towards the end. She starts to be less naval gazing and obsessed with her own tragedy. I think she starts to look back at her fans and the people who have been responsible for her success and, and appreciate it and talk back to it. I was trying to be really conscious about that without spoiling anything. This is my danger.

Brett Benner:

Yeah, completely. And, and to be honest, I feel like we've talked around things extremely well today.

Ashley Winstead:

I think we're doing a great job.

Brett Benner:

Really quick. You talked about Daisy Jones in the six and I wrote down some other titles and I want your opinion if you hit it or leave it. Okay.

Ashley Winstead:

Okay.

Brett Benner:

So you already said Daisy Jones in the six?

Ashley Winstead:

Yeah. Yeah,

Brett Benner:

that's a hit it for you.

Ashley Winstead:

Yes.

Brett Benner:

Almost famous

Ashley Winstead:

Hit it. Huge formative for me.

Brett Benner:

Bohemian Rhapsody,

Ashley Winstead:

somewhere in the middle.

Brett Benner:

Okay. Okay. And some of these you might not even know. Then I'm, I'll be thrilled if I stump you.

Ashley Winstead:

Yeah,

Brett Benner:

because there's books too. The final revival of Opal and Nev

Ashley Winstead:

haven't read that.

Brett Benner:

Okay. Okay. Okay. See the Commitments.

Ashley Winstead:

Commitments. Um, don't know it.

Brett Benner:

Okay. Okay. Oh my God. You've gotta see the Commitments movie. Okay. London Band. Yeah. And you know what, this is gonna be your fantasy a little bit because they're all like garage. You and your husband should watch that one. This is Spinal Tap.

Ashley Winstead:

I'll have a story. I hit it for sure. But I have a story I really wanna tell about. Yeah. Watching that. But it's probably, it's probably too much. It's probably, yeah, it's probably too much. So I'm just gonna lock that one inside and, okay.

Brett Benner:

Here's my, you can keep it out. This is a weird one. I don't know if you'll know this Utopia Avenue.

Ashley Winstead:

Never heard

Brett Benner:

of it. This is a book. Okay. It's David Mitchell. It's about a psychedelic band.

Ashley Winstead:

Nathan Mitchell of like Cloud Atlas, David Mitchell.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. Yeah. Visit from the Goon Squad.

Ashley Winstead:

Hit Jennifer. You can.

Brett Benner:

Okay.

Ashley Winstead:

Fabulous.

Brett Benner:

Um, okay. This one's so weird and I was like, oh, I'm just gonna put it down and I've never even seen this, but it, but I watched the trailer last night and I was like, I have to rock of ages.

Ashley Winstead:

Not heard of it.

Brett Benner:

Do you remember this with Tom Cruise? As like the rockstar. Okay. Find that trailer and watch it because

Ashley Winstead:

you're, I was gonna say my, I have the best homework list right now.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. But you're gonna be laughing when the trailer starts and then when Tom Cruise walks in as this like rockstar with his fur coat and his bare chest, it's almost like, wait, what is happening? Okay, and then I said, I love it. I said, star born, but either version and, well, there's three versions, you know, actually of STAR Born. There's the, obviously the one that everybody knows with Gaga, but then there's also the Streisand one from the seventies. Have you ever seen that one?

Ashley Winstead:

I haven't, I watched the trailer for it or I watched some, it was like not a, an official trailer, but maybe like an excerpt or something for it. I'm not so big on that franchise or that iteration or that, yeah.

Brett Benner:

Well the original's pretty incredible. The original was one Judy Garland. Is it?

Ashley Winstead:

Okay?

Brett Benner:

Yeah. James Judy Garland and James Mason. Judy Garland and James Mason, and then they remade it with Streisand. And I'll say, the movie's fine. The soundtrack is incredible. Chris Christofferson is the best rockstar ever. And it, and the soundtrack alone is fantastic. Like the movie's fine. And I, you know, I think the whole thing is a little bit like I did enjoy Bradley Cooper and,, Gaga's performance. I thought they were great, but, and I thought they captured. Some really cool stuff, especially the Coachella stuff, but

Ashley Winstead:

No, I, I think there were moments from, there were scenes from that film that I loved and gave me goosebumps. Sometimes I worry about romanticizing addiction and, and yeah,

Brett Benner:

I unders,

Ashley Winstead:

yeah.

Brett Benner:

Yeah.

Ashley Winstead:

So that's, that's my only hesitation with that.

Brett Benner:

I hear you. Alright, so, because you, because you have written so many different genres, is there a genre for you that you still haven't hit that you're like, I wanna do one of these?

Ashley Winstead:

A thousand percent fantasy. I am chalking out. I was gonna ask that. Wait. Yes. I, it's how, it's what I started out trying to write in the very beginning, before thrillers, before anything else. And, that first manuscript will live forever in, you know, my computer files is my shelved, but one of these days I'm gonna come back to fantasy. And I am so excited to do it.

Brett Benner:

Oh my God. One of these

Ashley Winstead:

days when I get a little more time between you writing these others

Brett Benner:

I know, but you have, you have so many others and just don't do like people having sex with dragons. Just please don't do that.

Ashley Winstead:

I couldn't if I,, yeah. I don't think I could. Anyone wants people in dragons from me.

Brett Benner:

Well, this was awesome. Please everyone go out and get The Future Saints by Independent if you can. Ashley, yes, congratulations on another fantastic book and thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. And please check out Ashley's website, all her tour information will be there, and on socials as well. So thanks for being here.

Ashley Winstead:

Thank you so much, Brett. You're the best. It's such a joy to talk to you.

Brett Benner:

Thank you again for being here, Ashley, and if you liked this conversation or other conversations that you've heard on Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. Also, what would be really helpful to me is if you could give the podcast five stars on your podcast platform of choice. And beyond that, if you had the time to write a review, That would be amazing. all of these kind of things really help the podcast get in the faces of people who might not have discovered it yet. So I could continue to bring you all conversations like this one. Thank you all for being here. As always. You can find me at Brett's books stack@gmail.com. You can find me on Instagram at Brett's books stack, and also on YouTube under Brett's Books Stack as well. I will see you in two weeks with another episode of Behind the Stack, and I hope you all have a great week.