Jennifer Niven, Meet The Newmans

In this episode Brett sits down with Jennifer Niven to discuss her book, 'Meet the Newmans'. They talk about antiquated grade school classes, her mother and how she was inspirational for the character of Dinah, working in a male dominated profession, the musicians who inspired key characters in the book, and why she made the decision to set the story in the time period she did. 

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https://www.instagram.com/jenniferniven/

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I'm sitting down with author Jennifer Nivan for her brand new book, meet the Newmans. A little bit about Jennifer. She is a number one New York Times bestselling author, known for ya, novels like all the bright places and holding up the universe, and also narrative nonfiction. She's also an Emmy Award-winning screenwriter who adapted all the bright places for Netflix, writing the script herself. Raised in Indiana with an author, mother Nivan. Started with nonfiction, then historical fiction, the Velvet Gene series before breaking into ya. With her books translated into over 75 languages. She splits her time between Georgia and Los Angeles, so I hope enjoy this episode of Behind the. I am absolutely thrilled to be sitting today with Jennifer Nivan, whose new book Meet the Newmans has just come out and it is so wonderful. I loved this thing so much and I just have to say like, I'm all for cover art and this thing is so spot on. It just so beautiful. I have to also tell you, yesterday I actually ordered. UK edition as well. Just the, the edges, the sprayed edge that, there you have it. Yes.

Jennifer Niven: 1:28

Right.

Brett Benner: 1:29

It's so beautiful as well. It, I mean, I love it. Definitely love, love. So, oh my God, it's just beautiful. So, um, for of you people who need that extra thing, I, I personally needed it as well, so I was like, I ordered it. But, uh, thank you, thank you so much for being here. I'm so glad this worked out.

Jennifer Niven: 1:47

Oh my gosh. Thank you. This is just a dream. I'm a huge fan and I'm so excited.

Brett Benner: 1:53

Me too, me too. One of the things that you'd said, and I, I love this so much, well actually two things and one we'll get into with the book was you, you talked about with your writing, you talk about writing ordinary people that end up in extraordinary circumstances, but also. About writing, the book writing that you would want to read. And I love that so much because I feel like that should be a mantra for so many writers to write the book you wanna read and, and I love that you feel that way.

Jennifer Niven: 2:19

I do too. And it, it's, it's just something, I think it helps you stay engaged in the story, you know, and, and it helps you, it just helps with the momentum and the flow and the, frustration that you sometimes feel as a writer. It's, if you are engaged and you want to read it, then you usually stay in it.

Brett Benner: 2:38

Totally. I know that, you've worked, you're, you're a screenwriter. You've been a journalist. You were also, an associate producer at a b, c television. So when I ask you this question, it's never felt more appropriate than now, especially in terms of this book. If I say to you, can you give us an elevator pitch of Meet the Newmans?

Jennifer Niven: 2:58

Absolutely. Okay, so Meet the Newmans is about America's favorite TV family in 1964. They've been on the air for about 12 years and they are America's. Perfect. And I use quotes for that black and white. Um, they're actually playing themselves. They're playing these perfect black and white apple pie versions of themselves, but they're in 1964 now. They're sorely out of touch and out of date. And the world is changing and they haven't, and they're in danger of losing the show. And then when Father Dell, who's the creative motor behind the show, gets into an accident, mom, Dina has to take the creative reigns in a way that she never thought she would have to. And in doing so, she liberates not only the family, but herself from the kitchen.

Brett Benner: 3:48

That was excellent and probably you didn't even have to take a beta blocker.

Jennifer Niven: 3:52

I didn't. I didn't.

Brett Benner: 3:55

I have a friend who's a showrunner, and he always tells me like he always would take a beta blocker before you had to go on the pitch. And I completely get

Jennifer Niven: 4:03

It's amazing. Yes. What a good idea.

Brett Benner: 4:05

Yeah, totally. I have to tell you, it's so funny, I was thinking about. The book and the characters and, and thinking about this kind of time period, it made me think of this TV show. I don't know if you ever watched, um, American Dreams. Did you ever see the

Jennifer Niven: 4:21

show? Yes. Oh God. Wasn't Kyle Chandler in that?

Brett Benner: 4:24

No, it was, um, I know the one you to of home, are we thinking of Homeland or Home Front? Home Front.

Jennifer Niven: 4:31

Home

Brett Benner: 4:31

Front. I think that was Home

Jennifer Niven: 4:31

front. But American Dreams, I did watch that.

Brett Benner: 4:34

Yes. I looked it up because I was like, I was obsessed with the show and it was like, um, GA O'Grady was the mom who really is not that far off, off from what Dina is. And, um mm-hmm. Little Meg Pryor. It was kind of the daughter's story. It was 1960 and went through 1964 and it ran three seasons on NBC, but, and it was a lot of things, like the young daughter got involved in American Bandstand and became to become a, you know, one of the, the backup dancers. So. It almost became this weird backdrop for me as I was reading it because it colored this era so distinctly for me. Um, so I'm glad, I'm glad you've seen it.'cause I was just like, oh my God, this is it.

Jennifer Niven: 5:14

And I totally forgot about that show and I want to now rewatch it because I loved it. I love the era and just all the elements of it and the style and the music. Oh my

Brett Benner: 5:25

God. Yeah. All of it. Were you a big TV watcher growing up?

Jennifer Niven: 5:31

Definitely I was, and then I also was such a huge fan of Nick at night when that was a thing and they had all the old TV shows in black and white. Yeah, like I love Lucy and Dick Van Dyke show. And I was just like mesmerized by those.

Brett Benner: 5:48

Yeah, I was also, see, and I think I'm older than you are, but I was also growing up in the afternoons. It would be my three sons and the courtship of Eddie's father. Oh,

Jennifer Niven: 5:58

oh my

Brett Benner: 5:59

gosh. And and then of course the Brady Bunch, which

Jennifer Niven: 6:02

yes, I love the Brady Bunch.

Brett Benner: 6:04

The Brady Bunch. So much. I mean that was like such the show. In fact, it was so funny'cause I was on Instagram trolling, scrolling, whatever last night, trying not to see political stuff. And I came across, um, what's her face who plays Jan, like current day. And she was doing this whole thing as Jan just, it made me laugh. Oh my

Jennifer Niven: 6:25

gosh.

Brett Benner: 6:26

So hard. But also, I

Jennifer Niven: 6:28

have to find it.

Brett Benner: 6:30

I'll have to send it to you. But it was also that thing where the Brady Bunch was one of. You know, childhood shows that then as you became older and started to hear all the stories of the stuff that was going on behind the scenes again, very much like this, that it was like it took something away where it's like, oh my God, you're ruining the innocence of my childhood. Like, you know, some of the kids were sleeping together and of course Robert Reed was gay, and I'm like. I was like, wait.

Jennifer Niven: 7:00

All the things.

Brett Benner: 7:02

Yes,

Jennifer Niven: 7:02

I know. But it was fascinating. And I have, of course, I have Maureen McCormick's book, I've got her autobiography. I've got a behind the scenes of the Brady Bunch book. I have one of. Oh, every show that I've ever liked that has one. I have a behind the scenes of that show because I'm, of

Brett Benner: 7:20

course,

Jennifer Niven: 7:20

I'm just fascinated.

Brett Benner: 7:22

Yeah. No. So what was the impetus for this book for you? Like what was the thing that made you say, I wanna write about this particular thing? Was it the characters or was it the time period or the, what was it?

Jennifer Niven: 7:33

I think it was all of the above. I think that, and the fact that I've always lived television, I've always had a soft spot for music style, the TV of the 1960s. I knew I wanted to set it sometime in that era. And then I've just always been riveted by the fact that we all have a behind the scenes. I mean, you know, it's fascinating to read about, the studio system in Hollywood when people like Rock Hudson had to marry his. Because he had this image. Mm-hmm. He had to protect his image and so horrific that so many people couldn't live the lives that they were supposed to lead. And then of course there's the sa of like the Brady Bunch back, you know, background. And I've always been fascinated by that. And then. Of course, as I said, we all have a behind the scenes, maybe not so salacious, maybe not so tragic, but we all, I think, you know, we have an image we like to portray to people, whether it's on social media or in real life. And then we've got the, the stuff we kind of protect. So I think it, it came mostly from there, but then also that love for. Whole like era.

Brett Benner: 8:40

Yeah. And it's funny just you saying about social media, because social media has really become the new kind of performance place, right? It's become, yeah. It, it's kind of usurped some of that. What there used to be the mystery around television and even movie stars. You went to the movies to see movie stars and award shows were so, they just felt otherworldly.

Jennifer Niven: 9:01

Oh yeah.

Brett Benner: 9:02

And I think now with social media, it's leveled that so much. But everyone in their mind is with, you know, with influencers, there's, they're a potential star. But it's that whole thing about what you're presenting to people and the image that you're presenting versus what really happened. Yeah. I don't know about you, but I remember growing up and my mom, like we were, grew up in a very Christian home, but it was a very important thing that there was an image that was presented, right. You didn't talk about certain things. It was very waspy. Everything was kind of pushed under the rug, and I remember someone getting divorced and in the seventies that was a huge thing, like Kramer versus Kramer Scandal just came out. It was a scandal.

Jennifer Niven: 9:46

Oh yeah. And I, I grew up in a, um, big sprawling southern family on both sides of my dad's and my mom's side. And so we grew up into, the, kind of, in the strictest of confidence, you know, way of. Thinking, I guess my, my grandparents especially my grandmother, would take you in the back room and she would tell you something in the strictest of confidence and you mustn't tell anyone else. But then everyone else knew because she'd been telling them in the strictest of confidence. But yet the image, you know that the, the southern genteel image Yeah. That they like to portray. And I remember my mom saying early on to me, and I'm an only child, that she said, um. And I don't want you to grow up like that about feelings.

Brett Benner: 10:38

Now your mom is a very celebrated writer in her own right. She wrote, she wrote a lot of amazing biographies like Carl Sandberg and a Thornton Wilder. And I know she was probably very influential on you and I kept wondering how much of her found her way into Dina.

Jennifer Niven: 10:51

Oh my gosh. I love this question'cause I love to talk about my mom. She was just amazing and uh, you know, she taught me early on to. Just do the things I wanted to do, be the, you know, be whatever I wanted to be. Don't limit myself or in my imagination. And it's not that she ever pushed me into writing, but when she found out I liked it, she definitely encouraged me and, and taught me everything I knew about it. But she was also this very, liked Dina, very gracious. And I think my mom was more like Dina after, you know, toward the end of the book when Dina kind of came into her own and, you know, changed and grew and stepped out of the kitchen. But she was there, there was a, a real kind of lovely strength to my mother that Dina also has. So there was a lot of, of my mom and Dina.

Brett Benner: 11:43

Wow. I love that. Now, did she perform at all too, or was she just a writer?

Jennifer Niven: 11:48

She was just a writer. She taught a lot, you know, and did a lot of speaking, but she was just a writer. She was amazing.

Brett Benner: 11:57

I'm so curious because it's the television minded person who, the producer part of you. Was there ever an actress in your head when you were writing Dyna? Did

Jennifer Niven: 12:03

you hear someones voice? Oh, I did, but it was, it was Doris Day and because I love Doris Day and so I, I pictured Doris Day, I had Doris Day in my mind and she kind of actually looks, she resembles the woman on the cover of the US Totally. You know? Yeah. Um, yeah,

Brett Benner: 12:21

totally.

Jennifer Niven: 12:22

So the hairstyle, the whole thing when I was. Everything. And when someone was asking me recently, you know, is there, is there a modern day person I would picture, you know, someone who would actually be castable. I was thinking about the amazing Margo, Robbie and oh God, and then I was trying to think of the rest of the cast and. I was like, oh, maybe Brett will have an idea because I, you know, I, you, you know that business and you know it so well. But yeah, so I was, yeah, but I always cast my character, so I know was definitely Doris Day and my mother, kind of both of them.

Brett Benner: 12:58

Well, it's interesting too because you forget, like I had to stop myself a few times and say how young. They actually are, meaning Dina and Dell. They're not that old. Not not, not by what we think of as in today's standards. They're very young, but, but what's crazy about it is. The, limitations, especially on women that were put in place. Yes. And the perception in television of, you know, even a man or a man as he is getting older, becomes more distinguished. And she, she talks about this at one point, like the grain of the hair. It becomes a distinguished thing with a man versus with a woman. You're suddenly, you're playing grandmothers at, you know, 35 and 38 while men. Are in their late fifties and playing, you know, dads with their young hot wives, which, you know, it still happens. One of the things, um, I wanna switch for a second to talk about Juliet and, for our listeners, Juliet is a journalist. I'll let you say who she is and then we'll talk about it.

Jennifer Niven: 13:53

So Juliet as a young journalist, uh, working at the LA Times, one of only two women who's working at the LA Times, she wants desperately to work on news, but she's instead being given fluff pieces like interview Dina Newman and talk about, you know, America's favorite homemaker and housewife. And Juliette has, a lot of strong opinions about women and their place in the world, and she's used to being, you know, um. Harassed and all the things she has to go through with her colleagues at the paper. But she has a bone to pick with Dina personally because she feels like Dina has really in, in having this image of herself on television as the woman who cleans and cooks and wears the pearls and the high heels as she does so. Country because she's such an influence and she's showing women. This is all there is.

Brett Benner: 14:54

And one of the things that she brings up to Dina, um, that becomes very instrumental in kind of Dina's realizing like, you know, her own worth. Mm-hmm. And who she really is, is Betty Friedan and talking about the feminine mystique. And, um, you know, Betty was really credited with the second, what they call this kind of a second wave of, of feminism and, and challenge this whole idea mm-hmm. That women are so much more than, you know, they're not just housewives. They're fully realized people who have dreams and hopes and desires. I'm so curious, I'm sure you, I, I, I've, I've, of course I've never read it, but I'm sure you have. And I'm wondering what that experience, how influential was that for you when you read it and how old were you?

Jennifer Niven: 15:32

I was, you know, I was probably. I think I was in college when I read it. And did you seek it out or

Brett Benner: 15:38

did someone recommend it to you?

Jennifer Niven: 15:40

Someone recommended it and I remember thinking, oh, okay, this is, it's such a, a relic of the time period, but yet there are things in it that are still relatable today, unfortunately. Yeah. But it was, it wasn't like a profound experience when I read it, because I grew up with a very strong mother who was loving and a full, fully realized person who was also mm-hmm. Working and doing the work that she loved. It was fascinating, and then I reread it when I was working on this book and it hit differently, I think because of the way that we've regressed, you know, in many ways in the world, especially, you know, well, certainly in women's rights. And so it, it hit differently and I think it hit differently because I'm, you know, older than I was then, too. Sure. And yeah, so it was, it was definitely instrumental. And, I knew that I wanted Juliet to give it to Dina in some way to make sure Dina read that book because I wanted Dina to have her eyes open in a way that they just hadn't been, because she's kind of sleepwalking through life when we first meet her.

Brett Benner: 16:57

With your own journalistic past, I'm sure that there was enough to pull from here, but who do you see yourself more as Juliet or diner?

Jennifer Niven: 17:06

So funny you asked that because when, probably Juliet, because I've always been pretty independent. Mm-hmm. And, um, I, I love to tell this story much. Well, in this way I'm like, Dina too, but, uh, much like the fact that Dina can't actually cook in real life. I mean, she's America's favorite cook and homemaker, but she can't, and she has a housekeeper. When seventh grade, this is a little bit off, off topic, but it's, it's related. Generally when I was in seventh grade, I had to take sewing and my sewing teacher called my parents in with the principal to have a conference and she said, Jennifer has a big mouth. She's having all the boys do her sewing for her and not doing her own work. And my mother said, and her very gracious Southern way. We are not a sewing people, so I find this very industrious and resourceful of Jennifer. David Thompson's mother has a sewing machine. David knows how to sew. Jennifer does not, and she's making the most of, and my father was just grumpy because he'd been pulled out of work and great to deal with this at all. The principal did not know what to do. Oh, I know. So it was, but that tells you kind of everything, but it, it, you know, that's also how I grew up. So I think I grew up more like Juliette, just knowing that even when you have limitations, you can overcome them, or at least be resourceful. When you are, you know, navigating mm-hmm.

Brett Benner: 18:44

You just telling, hearing you say, the story reminded me, and I don't think it would ever be in a school now we had home ec and Oh

Jennifer Niven: 18:52

yeah.

Brett Benner: 18:52

Everyone had to take it and part of it was learning how to cook and I think all we really did was like, make cinnamon sugar and put it on toast. And like that was like, you know, which is, which is probably what they would tell you now, is how to save money and make the most out of your grocery bill. And then I remember we had to make pot holders, which think about the idea of making young girls make pot holders, which is effectively saying, be, be crafty when you start to cook. For your husband

Jennifer Niven: 19:24

here, you'll need this in life. Here is a's right. You can make yourself,

Brett Benner: 19:29

we, we might as well be like, and then afterwards we're gonna go churn some butter and milk. Right.

Jennifer Niven: 19:38

It's exactly

Brett Benner: 19:41

like, like I totally get the idea of wanting kids to do learn like woodworking or metal shop. Right? Which we had to do that as well, but like home at

Jennifer Niven: 19:50

we did too. And I enjoyed that and I was terrible at home act just like I was terrible at sewing. But I loved doing drafting and metal shop and wood shop. And I remember my. Metal shop teacher saying it was so begrudging that any girls were taking his class, but we were being made to. And he said, just so you know, I do not expect much of of you girls because this is not anything you'll ever use in life. And I thought, oh, well, I'm getting an a. Like that is all you need to say to me.

Brett Benner: 20:25

Wouldn't you love to go back and see if one of the girls in your class actually ended up like a master welder or like something to that effect, or, I mean, just to see how that would've played out. Because that kind of idea to stymie people and to already set up. I don't expect much of you. I mean, that's so much of also what takes place in this book about everybody has their role and their place, and we don't move outta that role and that place. You talked a little bit about Juliet in terms of, you know, working in this kind of boys club, and I'm so curious because I know you, you've been in a writer's room. Especially in Hollywood. I'm wondering what that experience was like for you. I always think about, and I wonder because I also wanted a, wanna, wanna ask you if you feel it's progressed or changed at all?

Jennifer Niven: 21:10

Hmm. I, I, I think one of the experience I always think about is I worked at the House of Blues and I was the editor and a writer and interviewer for the website. And so every band that came through, I interviewed and then. I did all the content for the website, and I think the thing that was remarkable was that I was one of very few women who worked there, and this was in the nineties, and most of the acts that came through were male and most of the tech guys were male. And then, you know, most of the staff was male and. Kind of, um, quiet sexism that happened was not as bad as what Juliet endures in the, you know, the newsroom. But it's, it was still, I look back on it and I think at the time it wasn't as shocking because it was more of what we were used to. But I look back on it now, hindsight, I think, oh my God, the things that we just, you know, casually heard. From the mouths of musicians or guys who worked there. And I do think it's gotten better. I think that people are much more aware now. I do think there are, there's certainly a lot of room to, to keep growing and changing. But, but yes, I, I do think at least that's, there's some progress.

Brett Benner: 22:40

I think it almost asked for itself. Like for, I. I'm thinking about women being in that position and I certainly, strangely, I've had this experience being a gay man in situations in a very, um. Male heteronormative kind of dominated, and that's a lot of what, you know, a lot of TV is. And so a lot of times things are thrown out, and I think this is with women too. It's, there's almost a thing like it asks you to, to make yourself invisible in a way. It almost asks you to, in order to, and I think for her, for Juliet, in order to. Succeed on whatever level, these kind of this patriarchy perceives you to be successful too. You have to kind of go with the game. Which is also I think what Dina is coming to realize and coming to see very quickly, especially after she kind of has to, when Dell's accident happens, figure out how they're gonna make this thing keep going while he's, you know, in the hospital. Mm-hmm. One of the things that I interested to hear from you about Juliet is she has a, a relationship at the start of this with a musician that you've decided to leave. Unnamed and I thought that was so interesting and I wanted to ask you what that's about.

Jennifer Niven: 24:02

It's so funny because I think Juliet, I've always loved the kind of Maryanne faithful style of the sixties when she was in the sixties, right? Her clothes, her hair, everything was just so amazing. And that was the era she was dating Mick Jagger. And so I was, I was. Kind of inspired by Mary Unfaithful in that kind of superficial way, and then I started thinking about her Juliet's relationship and I wanted her to have a relationship that to her kind of, she gets very, very hard on herself about the relationship itself because she feels it undermines her. Role. Role as the strong woman, as a feminist, because she keeps going back to the musician and there's something about him, she can't quit and she feels rotten about herself because she keeps going back. Even though he's, he's kind of lovely. I mean, he is a musician. He is on the road a lot. It's not like they have this very solid, committed relationship, but. He is, you know, he's pretty lovely. So I think that I was kind of thinking of Maryanne Faithful in that era with Mick Jagger. Mm-hmm. But then I was also, um, I'm a fan of Led Zeppelin and I was kind of thinking about how Robert Plant was like early on. And the way that he was described at least, is just being kind of a lovely, cheerful guy and uncomplicated. You know, at least in the early days. And I thought, oh, I, I like that too. So I, I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna, I want him to be like mega world famous, but I don't wanna give him a real name obviously, because he's not a real person. He's to me. But, you know, I, and I don't want to just make up a name that people. Have to believe is like, so I thought I'll just call him a musician.

Brett Benner: 25:46

Well, now it's so interesting because now that you've told me that you wrote all these things for the House of Blues, I'm like, it's an amalgam of so many people that came through there and like now it's like Absolutely. I feel like, I feel like there's so many stories that are there that you could probably do a whole other book about.

Jennifer Niven: 26:01

I could, and I don't know that I could publish any real names. I probably would have to. No. Right. Use synonym. But it would be amazing.

Brett Benner: 26:09

This could be your own Daisy Jones on the six. Just, you know,

Jennifer Niven: 26:12

good.

Brett Benner: 26:12

Oh, right. Well it's interesting'cause um, you know, I listened to a lot of this and, um. First of all, I have to just give props to Ireland, who I am so obsessed with her as an actress and like anytime that I see that she's reading a book, first of all, I think she, she picks, I, you know, I, I know that probably they come to her and say, we'd like you to read this. And she picks such great books to read. So I was so excited to see that she did this, and there is a moment when she does his voice. She's British, and that was the only kind of giveaway, and I was like, huh. Because other than that, I was wondering now, did you have any conversation with her about it or did she just take that on herself?

Jennifer Niven: 26:56

I had a conversation with the producer who was saying, now I am sinking, the musician is British. And I said. Yes, that is correct. And I love the way Marin reads. First of all, like you, I'm a huge fan of hers. I will, I will listen to audio books just because she narrates them. That's, I'm the same. Yeah. And she, she does, she chooses remarkable books and she's so incredibly talented and I love that she can, she can be a full cast just all on her own. Agreed. And so, yes, I, I love the way she read. A musician, I have to say she nailed it.

Brett Benner: 27:35

No, she's great. She also gets the boys, all of it. There is this idea, this book presents of this, you know, we earlier this perfect family and obviously. You know, Dina is coming into her own, her own as in terms of her own strengths, her own power, and what she's actually capable of. They have two kids, Dell, who is the older son and Shep, who's younger, and they all, both, they both are kind of grappling with their own issues. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that guy is, is closeted and he's involved with another actor. And maybe it's because I'm just coming off like everybody else of watching heated rivalry, but I loved this relationship so much and um, I just thought you did a really amazing job in kind of traversing something that. Felt very authentic and especially in regards to Kelly, because he is the person that, you know, he is successful. He is a successful actor in his own right. They're both trying to figure out how they can move forward, and I just found the whole thing, their relationship really beautiful and it was very moving to me. And also it did, it just felt very real and, and handled. Very effectively. So I just wanted to say that I really appreciated that.

Jennifer Niven: 28:55

Thank you. I just think that means everything. I, I wanted it to feel that way and I just, I love both Guy and Kelly so much, and Guy was such an interesting character to write because he is a bit more retiring than the rest of his family. He doesn't love the spotlight as much as the other three. Because of that. I think he started off more soft spoken and a little more retiring when I was writing the book. And then gradually just, you know, started just coming into his own and being more vocal and, and I loved Kelly just from the start when he kind of arrived, if you will. And I just love the two of them together.

Brett Benner: 29:40

Yeah, I did too. And then there's Shep, who is the more reckless kid he is. He's a musician. He has. He's committing, he is. He's in love with someone. He's, involved with somebody else. There is so much that you're traversing in this book Between pregnancy, homosexuality, women in the workplace. Later comes up about, uh, you know, there's stuff about ethnicity in there and terms of diversity and diversity and, in the workplace and diversity in television. How many of these things, when you started to cobble this together, you thought, well, I wanna tackle this, or how much of it. Kind of came up for you as you started working through it.

Jennifer Niven: 30:20

I think that a lot of it started coming up as I was working through it and, and I was so influenced by the time and it took the, like the year that I set it in, which is 1964, and it took a little bit of work trying to figure out what year I was going to set it in, and I landed on 1964 because someone said, and I'm going to misquote it. I have to figure out what his name was because I love this quote so much, but he said that America essentially woke up at the beginning of 1964 in January in the fifties, still in the fifties.

Brett Benner: 30:58

Interesting.

Jennifer Niven: 30:58

But by the time 1964 ended in December of 1964, they were very much in the of the sixties because so much change that year alone. When I read that, I was like, that has to be when I said this. And I think because of all that was happening in the world, that also influenced as I was writing, all the things that the characters were going to contend with and be up against and go through. So I think it had an idea of it as I went into it, but then certainly along the way grew more and

Brett Benner: 31:37

are someone. In terms of, of your writing, plot driven or character driven?

Jennifer Niven: 31:42

I think I'm more character driven. I come from kind of a young adult world most recently, and we always call it, you know, are you a pants, are you a plotter? And do you go by the seat of your pants or do you plot? And I'm, I'm very much both, so I do kind of a hybrid of both. And I, I, I have an idea. I equate it to like a road trip. I have an idea where I'm going, the route I'm taking, where I'm going to end up. But there are all these detours along the way that I don't anticipate, and that's where some of the, well, a lot of the good stuff happens. Interesting. You know, just being open to those. Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner: 32:21

Yeah. Interesting. Who did you, did you start with Dina? Was she always the first person? Yeah.

Jennifer Niven: 32:28

She was always the first person. Her voice was the clearest at the beginning. And, I wrote that first chapter, which hasn't changed all that much very early on, just kind of experimenting and, you know, hearing her voice. And, and the, the first scene I really, I really saw and wrote was standing at the window watching her neighbor mow the lawn and thinking, oh, I wonder what it would be like if I just blew up my entire life and had an affair with him, you know?

32:56

Not

Jennifer Niven: 32:57

that I'm attracted to him, but here I am in the suburbs. What else am I gonna think about?

Brett Benner: 33:01

Yeah, completely. You know, the sad thing about this book, if there is a sad thing and there's not, ultimately I think it's like, it's, it's really to me, this book really speaks about, you know, taking charge of your life and being the most authentic people, person, people that you can possibly be. Um, at least that's. How I perceived a lot of this, these people kind of really finally as the show's moving from black and white to color, so are their lives, so to speak. Love that. I love this. I love this idea of kind of finally taking charge of their lives. Um. The thing that saddened me was getting through this is like where we are in terms of stuff pushing back, like you were talking earlier about, especially in terms of women, but so much of what's happening and feeling like this push to go back into the TV set, so to speak, into these perfect worlds and um, mm-hmm. And what I love about this is it, it, it seems so relevant to me'cause it's kind of showing that it's not. What you think it is. It's just fairy lights and magic, and there's just so much more happening, and I think that's for all of us. Like we were saying earlier, all the things that we present to one another where inside people are. Potentially crumbling.

Jennifer Niven: 34:26

So beautifully said.

Brett Benner: 34:28

But the nice thing is the Newmans have a really wonderful, wonderful, compelling trajectory. Well, I, I am so excited for you. I know you're like on a big book tour. You're leaving for the UK very soon as well. Yes.

Jennifer Niven: 34:42

Yes, yes, that's right. It's, it's been absolutely amazing and and so lovely and I love both parts of writing. I love being at my desk with the characters, and I love being out in the world with readers.

Brett Benner: 34:54

Yeah, I always say, I always love hearing this from writers because it's such an incredible. It must be just an incredible experience when people finally get to experience what, what you've been sitting with for such a large amount of time and, and seeing how these particular characters affect individual people and what it is that.

Jennifer Niven: 35:14

It absolutely is. It's just, there's no way to describe it and it's, um, I always say ever since I wrote all the bright places, I've never been so cried on or so hugged so much, or, and it's just absolutely been wonderful.

Brett Benner: 35:29

I love that. Well, everybody, um, go get the book, buy Independent if you can. Again, I will also make a big push. The audio is fantastic. Marin, Ireland, I'm reading it. She's really terrific. But it's, it's really wonderful. Congratulations. I'm, I'm so thrilled for you

Jennifer Niven: 35:45

too. Thank you, Brett. Thank you with all my heart. This is wonderful.

Brett Benner: 35:49

Thank you again, Jennifer, and if you've liked this episode or other episodes that you've heard of Behind the Stack, consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. Also, what would be really helpful to me is if you could rate this show with five stars on your podcast platform of choice. And if you have the time, what would be absolutely amazing is to give a review. It's the reviews and stars that help more people discover the podcast, and I'd really appreciate it so I can continue to bring you conversations like this one. I will see you all next week, and as always, thanks for listening.