Lance Garland, Out There

In this episode Brett sits down with Lance Garland to discuss his new memoir, 'Out There'. They talk about growing up gay in an ultra conservative home, the Navy SEALS and the physical demands of both that and being a firefighter, why firefighting as a profession, and embracing risk in ones job and in life. 

Lance's website:
https://www.lancegarland.com/

Lance's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/outtherewithlance/

If you like what you're hearing on this podcast please subscribe so you never miss an episode!

Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack

Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack

Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack

Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com

Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, this special non-fiction November bonus episode. So today I am sitting down with author Lance Garland for his memoir out there. The way I met Lance, I'm not gonna tell you about here. I'm gonna let our conversation, the podcast tell you that story. But it just goes to show that sometimes these conversations and these meetings come up in the most unlikely of places. But Lance is a really great guy and I was thrilled to be able to sit down with him. So a little bit about him. He is a veteran, firefighter, nature adventurer, and writer. his work has appeared in outside travel and leisure. Backpacker Orion and elsewhere. His honors include the Pathfinder Prize, a fellowship at the Banff Center's Mountain Writing Residency, and a catalyst grant from the American Alpine Club. He lives on Bainbridge Island, Washington. So I hope you enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I am really happy to be sitting down today with Lance Garland for his memoir that just recently came out out there, dispatches from my personal wilderness. Thank you so much for being here, Lance. It's great to see you on the screen.

Lance Garland: 1:18

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be a guest today.

Brett Benner: 1:20

I have to back up and tell really quickly, I, I wanted everyone to know that some of the way this came about, it's so random and so funny, is that Lance and I have a mutual friend who I had met before moving up to the Pacific Northwest and who also lived in the same area, and she's like, oh my gosh, I have to introduce you to my friends and. So I was like, great. So she ended up introducing and the funny thing was you and Oliver were having a party, which you were not'cause you were working. And so I actually didn't meet you. I met Oliver, but all of your friends in this incredible community. And actually Maggie wasn't there either because she was working. So it was this kind of this strange thing. But it was great'cause we got to meet all these people and then it was like the connection of. Of, of putting it all together. And then you had the book come out, so it was kind of really fortuitous and like, how lucky are we to have met you guys? And so it, this for me is kind of extra special because, um, literally like. You're my neighbor, which is so cool. I love it. It's so rad. And I'm such a book nerd. So imagine my excitement when I, you know, I actually met you on Instagram first. I didn't know that you were the friend Maggie was trying to connect us with and I was like, your Instagram is incredible. This is so awesome. So imagine my excitement when I'm like, oh wow, this is my new neighbor. This is awesome. I know. So it's funny'cause I thought, okay, we'll have plenty of, plenty of stuff to. Geek out about. So that's really great. So

Lance Garland: 2:51

I, I need to ask, were you always an outdoor kid? I did not grow up, uh, going much into the outdoors other than going to like the local beach. And in the Pacific Northwest, you know, you gotta take beach with a grain of salt. Literally, it's a rocky, heavily. Seaside where you can see the other side of the water. So it's just more like an inland, but that was the most outdoor stuff that I did growing up is just like day trips to the beach. I was not a camper. We, we went camping maybe twice as a family. It was a disaster, so, wow. It was not something that my family did. Uh, do your siblings have it as well, that kind of adventurous spirit? No. I'm the only one who's. You know, outdoor enthusiasts. People think I'm crazy for the things that I do all these day long backpacking trips where you don't get to shower and you're just dirty and gross and miserable for half the time. But I was in the Navy, and this is actually in the book where a friend of mine invited me out to a backpacking trip.

Brett Benner: 3:46

In the

Lance Garland: 3:46

North Cascades National Park. And we went out there because we had read this book by Jack Haack Desolation Angels, and in that book, Jack Haack writes about his time as a fire lookout. So my buddy's like, let's go to this fire lookout. You can get out there. It's super deep, but let's go out there and camp and go see it for ourselves. So I went on this trip and that, that was the last year I was in the Navy, I think it was two seven. So a while ago. And we went out there and I just. Fell in love. I mean, we, we were miles and miles and miles away from the nearest road. Mm. The way we did at that time, we got dropped off by a water taxi. So we hiked from the highway down, got a water taxi, took us out in the middle of nowhere, and then we're 30 miles away from the nearest road, and then we go on like a seven mile hike to get to this. This fire lookout and it to, to this day, I mean this fire lookout is just so symbolic of my life and what, the, the outdoors has given me. So

Brett Benner: 4:40

I'm having like shades of John crack hour. I, yeah. Yeah. I should back up a little bit before, you know,'cause I started to launch it and then I was like, I didn't even really talk and ask you if you could give a kind of elevator pitch of what your memoir is about. That would be great.

Lance Garland: 4:56

Yeah, so the memoir is pretty much about me, how I overcame the challenges of my life. I was openly gay in the Navy during Don't ask, don't tell. Before that, I was raised in an anti-gay religion, so I wasn't capable of coming to terms with who I was in the Navy. I became a witness in a court martial. That threatened my career. And then after the Navy, I had to rebuild my life and become the first openly gay fireman in the Seattle Fire Department. So how I got through all those challenges. For me, I needed like something that helped me out and and nature is the thing that helped me. It gave me resilience and it gave me this opportunity to reflect. So the book is about how I managed to get through all that really tough stuff. And it's kind of an homage to nature and the outdoors and how that can help not only me, but the community, you know, get through their tough hours.

Brett Benner: 5:53

So your, your, your family, you have two siblings, right? I have three, yep. You have three and you're at the upper end, correct?

Lance Garland: 6:01

Yeah, I'm the second. So, but I'm the oldest boy. My sister is the oldest. So I kind of the oldest by proxy. Um,'cause she was the only girl she was. But anyway, yes, there's, there's four of us.

Brett Benner: 6:12

Yeah. And so you, you, you talked about it was a pretty conservative. One would almost say severe religious upbringing. It was a fundamentalist Baptist church. You were homeschooled. Right. Can you talk a little bit about that in, in terms of your upbringing, in terms of the, your parents and the way they kind of wanted to effectively protect you all from, from the outside?

Lance Garland: 6:29

Yeah. The way, the word that they used was sheltered. They kept us sheltered from the world. Um, I, I was homeschooled. I was also put through the church's school and then towards the end my parents didn't have any money, so we ended up going to a public school that was. Very small, kind of homeschooled group that turned into a public school. Interesting stories, but the point is, is that they wanted to shelter us and not give us a secular education. The byproduct of that is that I didn't know what gay was until I started working at 16. Really? I mean, I, I, there's a scene where. In the book, uh, a guy from homeschool kisses a boy and it becomes this thing. Um, and he goes to conversion therapy. And for me, before that all happened, I was like, oh, this is amazing. You can kiss a boy. This is so awesome. But then the aftermath of it was very severe and it became very apparent in my coming of age that it would ruin my life if I was gay, a hundred percent I'd be excommunicated. Who knew what was outside? The circle of my upbringing. I had no idea if you could survive out there. It was, it was a scary situation to feel like your involvement and belonging was contingent on you not being gay. So, I mean, I don't think that my parents were like, you know, hateful of gay people. It's just that they weren't allowed, it was just not something that was in the sphere of influence. So, and then we find out later how that goes.

Brett Benner: 7:57

It's so interesting. Did you,'cause you said at 16 you became, you know, you probably had a name for it, but were you aware you had, like, were you aware when you were young? Like something's, something's different, something, even if you couldn't

Lance Garland: 8:09

verbalize it yet? A hundred percent yes. I knew from a very young age and. You know, we didn't have a secular idea of what gay was, but in church, and there's a scene in church where, you know, they say God hates homosexuals. They're an abomination. That's my understanding of what that is. I didn't know about like same sex love. It was just this two men having sex is. You're going to hell. You know, I didn't know that there was another idea of what gay was that you could be married and have kids or you know, just any other ideas? I had no concept of gay culture at the time.

Brett Benner: 8:42

It's interesting hearing you say all this because you know, not to the severity of what you went through, but you know, I was raised in the church as well, and so reading about how you would go twice on Sundays, sometimes during the week, all of this. So resonated with me. But having that awareness, like you said, of something is off and also something is, is really wrong and not knowing how to, uh, I, I, you know, put into words, or even frankly, the worst part is having anyone to be able to talk about these feelings that are coming up. Right,

Lance Garland: 9:21

totally. There's a moment in the book where my grandma, who is not religious, kind of comes, sets me aside and tells me, and I didn't understand what this was when she said it at the time, but it stuck with me. She said, Lance, there's nothing wrong with being gay. And it just stuck.'cause I was like, what do you mean? What is this? And it took me decades to like understand. I was very young when she told me that. It took me forever to understand what that meant and what she was saying to me, and it to me, that was profound that I had some support in that, you know, dark place because, you know, growing up as a queer kid in a, unsupportive or even, you know, scary environment. I mean, that does horrible things to our community. I mean, I don't want to go into the details, but you know, I'm a firefighter now, you know, I, I see the, you know, the suicide rate for underrepresented groups, marginalized groups, and, and queer people are one of those. And I thought there was no future for me too. And when you think there's no future for you, then how do you live?

Brett Benner: 10:22

Yeah, there was just a, it was almost just a sentence in the book where you talk about praying to God, confessing your sins and asking for him to change you. And I so remember that like I went to church camp. Every year, and it's funny, when I reflect back on it, I had a, a counselor who was so wonderful and loving, and I don't necessarily think he was gay, but I think as a young person, I, I was crushed out on him, but not, fully able to understand that, but mm-hmm. I'm sure that as a. Sensitive adult. He probably recognized something and he was very, gentle and, you know, in terms of how he dealt with me and, and very loving. And so, and I think about that. I think about that a lot. You talk, there's a sequence in here where, your sister had a teacher that she loved who was taken outta the school because they were gay. And then, then later there was a, the same teacher, Mr. Dennis, who was a really influential teacher for you., In terms of writing, but I have to read something. He had, you were talking about how he came back from the summer vacation and he had pictures, but they were just pictures of him. Yes. And you're questioning who took those pictures and who was on the other side of that and he said there was truth there somewhere. And I knew somewhere else, someone I. Else had to have taken those pictures all across Europe, I'd imagine, who that person could be content to take the pictures and not be in them. Content to be invisible, silent, non-existent. In the majority of Mr. Dennis's world, at least from our perspective, a deep sadness began to form me. Hiding was essential. Silence was the only option, and that just killed me. I recognize that completely. I had that same, mine was a drama teacher who was so influential to me, but I think even now, the amount of teachers who are under attack for either being gay in these conservative areas or being just supportive and recognizing in kids that there's something different there. It's just such a hard thing.

Lance Garland: 12:13

Absolutely. I mean, seeing all the book Bannings and the Don't Say Gay in Florida, and I mean it, it a hundred percent triggers me from my youth. You know, it's, yeah. It is something that I talk with my, my best friend was with me on this whole journey of life, and we talk about that. Like, can you believe that this is still going on? And even, you know, coming back so strong with like a new administration of this, this hatred and this intolerance. So, yeah, it's, it's incredibly scary and I think our teachers are put in a horrible position because teachers awful are supposed to show you the world and, and encourage curiosity and then when they're not allowed to, it's, I mean, it is awful. I think that teachers have the most important job in society and they are put in an impossible position with politics

Brett Benner: 12:58

being raised in this environment. I'm just curious, how has your view of religion changed? Do you view yourself as a religious person or, or more of a spiritual person, or how do you view it?

Lance Garland: 13:08

Yeah, that's a really good question. I had a conversation two days ago about this. I, I am not a religious person. I don't follow a dogma. Mm-hmm. But it's funny because like Jesus is the, the icon in the Christian religion, and I personally think that Jesus is an incredible role model. I still try to model my life after him. I mean, what an incredible way to live your life. Um, but as far as, you know, going to church or adhering to a structure, that's not really my thing. I, me and my husband talk about the fact that, you know, we're having kids now. We just had our, our first kid and. Instead of raising them in a religion, we wanna give them some sort of structure. And my answer to that structure is nature. You know, I want them to feel connected to the earth, to the world, to be able to go out and and experience those spiritual moments that I've found in the mountains, in the forest. You know, on the ocean, in the seas. And so that's my sort of standin is this deep connection to place is my religion. Mm-hmm. But I don't have anything against religious people as long as they don't try to hurt me and my family. I think that I've met on my journey, lots of Christian people who are incredibly loving and incredibly supportive and really are emblems of what Jesus stood for. And then I've also seen the ones who are constantly trying to, you know, control. Have intolerance and, and hatred and discriminate. And I mean, so I have no place for that in my life. I, I welcome religious people as long as they are a human and, and have kindness and, and understanding. Um, and unfortunately, you know, the types of churches that I grew up in that is not allowed. There is no communication. Yeah. I was excommunicated when I, when I came out, very few people talked to me again from that whole environment. After I came out, it was clear as day.

Brett Benner: 14:55

But your family does, I mean, I know your relationship with your mom has evolved a lot, but do you still keep up with your dad?

Lance Garland: 15:01

No, me and my dad are sort of excommunicated and that's a whole nother story that is kind of in the book, but is, you know, a lot to go through. But um, yeah, as far as my mom, I think I put my mom in our evolution in this book because I think it's a great example of. Even when there's this difference and even when someone really believes in in their religion, you can still find a path to reconciliation and to a relationship. And me and my mom found that together and it was hard and it was long and we had to have a lot of patience and a lot of conversation. But now it's amazing. She calls my husband, her son in love, love that. She is incredibly supportive. I love that. And she's, you know, her, I think her understanding of her religion has evolved. In the journey as well, which is what we all can hope from when we learn from each other and love each other, is that we can evolve and learn about each other.

Brett Benner: 15:53

Yeah, absolutely. I'm, I'm jumping to the Navy Seals because these are the things I learned. I, first of all, I didn't know that, seals stood for sea, air and land. Mm-hmm. I mean, I've learned all these things. And because basically an assault can happen from any point, whether it's land or sea, or the air, which is. Amazing. Now, you were always kinda drawn to the idea of this was like, as a young kid, you liked action movies. You liked the idea of like, these people that were like super spies and doing all these things. Oh, and, and then, and then you said that nine 11 was really the catalyst for you to wanna pursue it. So you were probably like, what, 15 when nine 11 happened? Gosh, that's,

Lance Garland: 16:31

I'm not totally sure. It was two years before I graduated, so maybe like 16? Yeah, something like that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 16:37

So. So we get into the Navy sales. First of all, it, this was one of the parts for me that I literally was like, I'm out because I could, the fact that people did this, the fact that people go through this grueling, grueling. Process of trying to become a seal like my hat's off to you. This part here where it said, we do hundreds of pushups in sets of 20 while they growl at us from above. Then push us with our gear out the door and into a hallway clogged with pedestrian traffic. Bodies are everywhere. The instructors do not tire down three flights of stairs and into a gauntlet of pressurized water. We crawl and come out into the grinder. They keep the hoses on us. Water burns my eyes as I see. Flares igniting the courtyard on all sides. Explosions come from the corners as they line us up in ranks. All right, at this point, I've already pooped my pants and like I, I, so you, you've gotta talk about this because I think this takes a special person and the fact that you went even as. Like where you went through with this process, just the physical part of it. Can you talk a little bit about this? And also what I think is hilarious is you kind of ran into this to try to escape your same-sex traction and you landed yourself in a sea of probably the hottest, most in-shape beautiful men in all kinds of environments.

Lance Garland: 18:05

I mean, it's hilarious. It's ironic. I mean, I, I tried to lean into that a little bit'cause from. My vantage point in life, I'm like, wow, what was I thinking? What was I thinking? Uh, but you know, you, you mentioned what is a CLC Air land, like? It made perfect sense because I wanted adventure in my life. Mm. I wanted to do the seas, I wanted to, to go through the land. I want, you know, I wanted to explore. That was my whole, like in my heart, I had been kept in this tiny cage my whole life. I wanted to go out there, get, see the world. That was the whole point someone needed to

Brett Benner: 18:38

tell you, you need to work on a cruise ship.

Lance Garland: 18:40

There's so many different ways would, so much easier. It's it's so true. And it's, and it's funny because that's where my upbringing came in, right? It's like I was taught that what you do. You serve your country and you serve your family, you know? So I was very much following this, even though I was trying to get out, I was still very in the dogma of following the strict path that life should take. And, you know, I wasn't quite ready to accept myself as being gay. When I went to seals, I thought that this was a way for me to get over it, you know, really deep down I was like, oh, if I'm a seal. All of my problems go away, you know, and then I'm there. I'm like, okay, it's not going away. Okay. Then I start to daydream about, well, can I be in a gay Navy seal, you know, and, and hear that thought excites me. You know, I'm like in, in the middle of this, this is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, in my opinion at the time is to be a gay Navy seal. But I'm like, can I be that? And I came to the conclusion that I couldn't be. I, I follow that thread all the way to, you know, becoming the first openly gay fireman. And I, I revisit that'cause I find out who the first openly gay Navy Seal was and it didn't go well for him either. So long story short, there at Navy SEAL Training, I was getting to know who I really was and I knew I loved adventure. I knew I loved to explore, but I also knew I was gay. So I had to come to this conclusion. I just had a total breakdown there in my brain and in my soul. I was like, what am I gonna do with my life? And I decided to go out into the unknown instead of trying to fit myself into this box that I could not fit into. And then that's, in my opinion, where my life really started. But boy, it was not easy. From the moment I made that decision for years afterwards, I was still trying to figure out how I could live, you know? And that's when I get into don't ask, don't tell. I, you know, I do not become a Navy Seal. You know, I, I, I tried and I chose not to continue. And then I went out a ship and fell in love for the first time and. Traumatic to say the least for me and for, um, my boyfriend.

Brett Benner: 20:59

Were you able, when you were going through all of this in the beginning, were you able to, were you able to talk to anybody about any of this or was it like a floodgate for you if you were afraid? If you started talking, you wouldn't stop talking and so you had to keep your mouth shut.

Lance Garland: 21:12

When I left the Navy Seals, I said, I'm telling everybody. Like, I'm, I'm not, I was 19 years old. I went to, my friend, told her immediately, and she was the first person I told was incredibly supportive. She was like, this, this is awesome, Lance. Like, she was so supportive. And then I started telling my family and then that was wild. You know, the different reactions were huge. And then the church found out, you know, and then I never talked to the church people again, pretty much. And so I was being very, very open. But then I got to the ship. And I realized, oh, I can't be open here, can I? So then I started to try to figure out, you know, I, I would tell my closest friends, there was a small group of people on the boat that I was out to. I don't think it was like. Shocking to anybody when they found out I was gay.'cause I was sort of living openly but silently, if that makes sense. And then when I fell in love with my boyfriend on the ship, that's when it really couldn't really keep it a secret anymore. And then I get involved with a, court martial where he was sexually assaulted by somebody else on the boat. And then everything just goes to absolute hell after that. Because even telling your story, even being a witness, it wasn't even my story, it was, it was my boyfriend's story and I had some, some very small information that helped the case. The guy who had assaulted him threatened to kill me, and so I, you know, was a witness and I, and I told the court, I told the investigators that that had happened and then it opened up the floodgates into, well. You know, your personal life is now on the line. It's open for discussion. So then I was outed officially because I was a witness in the trial. There were no witness rights, you know, in that situation. So really it just, it laid bare everything about my life. I was completely vulnerable and open and expecting to be kicked out. Dishonorably discharged from the Navy and I was really lucky. And I won't go into all the details'cause it's a lot in the book. Did you read it? I did not get dishonorably discharged, and that to me was the first real show of support and goodness in humanity that really was able, I was able to hold onto this fact and create a whole new life. Even though I was dealing with all the tra traumatic events of my past, I had this thing that somebody else did for me. To, to stand up for me. And for me that was life changing. And it has continued to, like, to this day still, I'm still in contact with this person. They are an absolute model of humanity in my, in my life. And I hope to repay pay it forward because one person's actions completely changed the direction of my life.

Brett Benner: 23:51

There's such sequences both in the Navy Seals and in the, and when you were going through the training to be a fireman that where you're pushing yourself so hard and, and I think it's part of this, speaks to your excellence in terms of how well you were doing to be honorably discharged. Because you were, not only were you doing everything you were supposed to be doing and doing it right, you were doing it better than most of the people. And I kept thinking was some of this drive for you? Tied to your sexuality and tied to those concerns.

Lance Garland: 24:22

Absolutely. I think as queer people we're held to an extremely high bar, this, this idea of excellence, there's no other option because, you know, it's so hard to, in, in my experience, to succeed as a queer person, as an openly queer person in life. There's so much against you that you have to be perfect. You have to be excellent. It's actually something that I talk about with my friends now and, and with my therapist, this, this need to be perfect. It's not really serving me. And so yes, that absolutely informed my trajectory for sure. It gave me the motivation. There's also negatives to that too, but I think that. I also had a lot of emotional stuff and and traumatic experiences that I needed to work out. And the way that I could work it out in my mind, in a healthy way was physically, and you know, that that did happen through work, through the Navy and through firefighting. But even to this day, you know, I go on these long physical treks to go climb mountains. To me, it's cathartic. It's a way to, you know, have that introspection with myself, come to terms with what has happened in my life, and then also choose how I'm gonna react to these things that have happened. And so, yeah, the physical facts, the, the part of that process have been incredibly helpful for me to overcome some of these really terrible situations.

Brett Benner: 25:49

So jumping ahead a bit of 27, you got, uh, evicted from your apartment because the land was being developed and so you ended up living on a boat, which, and, and let me just add that it was a small boat. Small boat for someone who was six small three, right? I think there's something to me that's very poignant and telling about. You who is physically so large trying to push yourself down to live into these, it's almost like your spiritual and emotional life was running in tandem with your physical life at that point. I agree. Totally. So interesting.

Lance Garland: 26:23

I, you know, and I love that, that chapter, I try to sum up most of that six years in one chapter. It really was teaching me the physicality of it, me squeezing myself into these tiny boxes, me not being able to just stand up straight and own who I am in life and accept the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it, just to accept it, you know? I was trying so much to be this idea and living on the boat kind of laid all that bear too, and it gave me. A chance to understand my body more. It was very introspective, it was very isolating as well. I was alone a lot of the time living alone. But I was also able to say, okay, so this is who I am. This is, and now what do I want to do with this? Where do I want to go? And then, you know, the boat. I could sail, I could go anywhere. And I did. I sailed all the time and I'd bring friends along and it opened up this new chapter of adventure for my life. I think that that was when I was starting to say, I'm not gonna hide anymore, and it's not as simple as a one decision. You know, I, I'm not gonna hide, I'm out, period. Coming out is a continual process. You get a new job, you have to come, come out to everybody at your new job. Always, always, you know, it's a continual thing. So, but I wanted to get to the point where it wasn't a problem or a challenge. Every time I came to the table with it, I wanted it to be nonchalant. I wanted it to be how I felt about it inside, which was like, I'm proud of who I am, but I'm not that different from everybody else. Right? And so that's when it started to really, and you'll see in the firefighting. When you put that to the fire and when there's costs associated with it, and when you could lose your job again and all these things, it's not so easy to, to step up to the plate, and it requires dedication and determination and a lot of messiness. My life, I, I did not live a clean, perfectly trimmed life. It was messy. I made so many mistakes, but somehow along the way in that messiness, I got to amazing places. And so the fire department for me was that reward, uh, hard earned, um, not only through the physical aspect of becoming a firefighter, but overcoming all my past to be able to be okay with who I'm as an openly out gay man.

Brett Benner: 28:40

So take us through then, what led you to, to the firehouse? What led you to say, I'm gonna be a firefighter,

Lance Garland: 28:46

you know. It came down a couple things. One is the physical. I love the physical stuff. I need to be doing stuff with my body. I need to be lifting or hiking or climbing and this, all this stuff. But you know, I learned something in the Navy is that I really wanted to help people and something I learned from the Navy Seals is I got there and I realized that. Their version of helping people is to be assassins and kill the bad guys. And I'm like, that's not what I was thinking I wanted to do. I wanna help people. I want to actually like physically help remove them from danger. And so it really became a, like a psychological, a philosophical like lifestyle choice of. I wanna go to people in their darkest hour because I know what it's like to be in your darkest hour and not have someone, and I'm like, I want to go out there and be that person for someone. And firefighting. Was the fastest way I could do that with, with my background and, and my skillsets. And I loved it. I found this really, this spiritual quality to giving back to the community through firefighting. And, you know, I've experienced a lot of death through that job being with people in their final moments and, and to have that honor of, and that responsibility to be with somebody as they, as they leave this. World. World and offer them kindness and support and love. I think that that's a phenomenal task to try to rise to that occasion. Um, and then also just running into burning buildings and, and trying to pull people out. That doesn't happen as much these days'cause we have good technology. There are fires, but people get out quicker. So more what we deal with is the medical side of, you know, people having heart attacks and people in car accidents, and that's more of the modern firefighting. But yeah, I get to do a range of things and that excites me. I think that's what. Showing up to work every day and not knowing what was gonna happen is something that really gets me going. I think that's awesome, but also probably a byproduct of my past.

Brett Benner: 30:40

And maybe you can explain this to me'cause I don't know, like I grew up when my brother was a volunteer fireman and I don't know if some do some cities or. Counties have strictly it's voluntary versus being employed.

Lance Garland: 30:52

Yeah. So I, that's how I started my career. Right after college, I started volunteering on an island close to Seattle, VA on island. And usually it's your way, your proving ground. It's like being an intern. You know, you, you work for free. To show them what you've got. You get your certifications, you build a platform, and then ultimately, yeah, you hope that that leads to a professional paid career job. I think at the time that I was volunteering, I was. There were 70% of the workforce of firefighters in the nation were volunteers. Wow. So really, you know, the big cities are where, or the suburbs are, where you get to, you know, be paid to be a firefighter. So many firefighters do it out of the kindness of their heart. Wow.

Brett Benner: 31:34

And this was the other thing, I know you, I'd asked you this previously, how many. Firefighters are there in just the Seattle station, is that what I'm saying? Is that or that division? Yeah, so

Lance Garland: 31:44

the city of Seattle, they have about 40, roughly 40, uh, fire stations across the city and over a thousand firefighters outta us.

Brett Benner: 31:54

Yep. Wow, that's really, really incredible. Has your views about the job and there is risk. There's risk with any job, but has it changed at all now since you're a debt?

Lance Garland: 32:04

Yeah. Well it's funny'cause I only been a dad for seven weeks now and I haven't actually went back to work yet. I'm still on the parental leave. So, you know, going back to work, it's gonna be funny. I am gonna go back to work as a dad and, and as a publish author of a book talking about this job. I a hundred percent expect for things to be different. I think. For me, you know, risk, I, as a gay man, as a outdoor enthusiast, as a firefighter, as a a veteran, risk has been a very big part of my life. Mm-hmm. Um, it's a constant and it, it's, I have a very strong relationship with risk. I think that it's also personal for each person, but for me, my risk, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere in my life if I wasn't capable of accepting a certain amount of risk and at times an exorbitant amount of risk. I ideally don't want to take that much risk, but risk is a normal, natural part of life, and it's something that I. I'm learning every day because I put myself in positions that are slightly risky, that I have something to lose. I think it also makes you feel very alive and very grateful. I can't believe where I'm at in life right now. I, I'm so grateful and risk taught me that, you know, not everybody has been able to live a life like this, you know, openly gay, blue collar guy with a family, I mean. To me it's, it's so beautiful and it's such a everyday present thing to be like, wow, I know how rare and how awesome this is because of where I came from. Is there anything that scares you? Oh yes. Releasing this book scares me. Talking about it publicly scares me. You know, it's one thing to kind of like come into your, your head and just kind of, you know, come to terms with things on your own, quietly in your own corner. It's a whole other thing to bring it out into the open and then get people's responses, see how people view it themselves. Um, so yeah, this whole process is scary. I think that, you know, being a firefighter, it's, it's not, not scary running into a, a fiery inferno. It's absolutely scary. It's just you do it for a reason. And I think for me, I talk about it in the first two chapters of the book, Viktor Frankl's Man, search for Meaning. When you have a reason to do things, then the fear kind of goes away a little bit. It's always there. But it's when you have a reason, you kind of push through. And so I have lots of reasons, you know, to continue forward and to release this book. And I, I really, I did it for myself, my younger version of myself.'cause I, I had a hard time finding those examples. Um, and I did it also for the next generations, like I hope. This book is so irrelevant, you know, tomorrow, today, that like the next generation's like, wow, that's crazy that that happened back in day, the time capsule. I can't wait.

Brett Benner: 34:54

Right? That's. Yeah, totally. Exactly. And there's a whole queer firehouse somewhere.

Lance Garland: 35:01

Oh, I can't wait. Yeah,

Brett Benner: 35:02

I can't. That would be awesome, right? Flame throwers number 42. Right, exactly.

Lance Garland: 35:08

Yes.

Brett Benner: 35:10

We, first of all though, first thing I wanted to say to you is I just, I find you're so interesting'cause you have such an interesting dichotomy between a job that puts you at risk, that is at times high, high stakes and all manners of it. And then the other side of you that's about. Solitude and quiet and hiking and you know, mountain climbing and being close to nature. It's so yin and yang and I, I think that is so fascinating in how one schism of your life kind of feeds the other part and back and forth. It's, it's. It's fascinating and it's big dips, like most people will go see a scary movie. So you say earlier in the book how your parents had encouraged you and your siblings to become missionaries. Yeah, and I, I want, I just looked up, the actual definition of a missionary is someone who is sent somewhere to help promote a certain faith or provide services to people. And it's so interesting to me that you've kind of fulfilled that desire. Even though it's not in the way that they might have originally seen it. Oh, funny. But hearing you speak about this stuff, um, I, uh, you said across the decades of my life from child to young man to adult, I realized that I've been created, conditioned, encouraged to be this in role and in that actualization I have come full circle. And I thought that was so. Beautiful to see, and I thought a lot about your parents and your mom, and I hope that she recognizes that. And in you,'cause in just talking to you, you are, you are a servant in some ways. And I don't mean that in a, in a, it literally, like if, if. Christ and was very much that much a servant of the people and what you're doing for people and how you're helping people. I think it's, it's really kind of amazing how it's kind of come to fruition.

Lance Garland: 37:10

It's so interesting. I, I don't think I intentionally, you know, it wasn't something that I tried to do. It's, it's just how life played out. And in that way I'm really grateful to my parents for giving me such a great upbringing. You know, I think that it was hard being a gay kid in that environment, and I think that there's a lot about the religion. Stuff that I don't agree with, but there's so much good that I was able to take from my upbringing and, and, you know, share that with the world. And it took a lot of years to understand that and to see it from that perspective. The good with the bad, And so I'm really grateful that I can take those lessons from my childhood and, and use them, and I hope to do this. I feel so like huge obligations because I've been so privileged. I mean, I know how I'm writing a book right now about the historical figures in, mountaineering who were queer that I found, and how truly brutal their past and their lives have been. And that is a common thread through queer history. I'm just looking at my life and how, how have I been so lucky? I mean, granted, it's been tough. It's crazy stuff that's happened, but man, I've been so lucky and I just feel so obligated to help continue that storyline. Like, how can we continue to help people be lucky and live good, supported beautiful lives? Like, isn't that what everybody wants? Yeah. I hope to continue that thread and to give back and to encourage it.

Brett Benner: 38:44

But I would also also say to you, I think there is luck involved, but I also think it's some of your choices and it is perseverance and but also that's what you view as luck. Some of that's just inside you as a person, so that that speaks volumes and certainly I. Luck is involved, but I'm a firm believer that like attracts like and positive will attract positive. And I just look at you and I'm so, first of all, like I'm so blown away just in terms of your spirit and your positivity and the way. That you choose to live your life. I think it's amazing and I'm so excited to see you and I feel so fortunate to be able to, hopefully for a long time, watch you with your kids and the way you are as a dad. I think you guys are both gonna be amazing, but as your children grow up and the lessons that you're gonna teach them and, and that, I think it's a really amazing thing. So. Congrats. It's just, I think it's great.

Lance Garland: 39:38

Thanks Brett. You know, you, you've lived and continue to live a phenomenal, beautiful life and are an example to the community. I mean, boy, do we need those? Every single one of those lights shining. And so thank you for doing that. And, and you're doing all the same stuff. You're out in the community, you know, giving back. Awesome stuff for people, especially writers who, I mean, we know how hard it is for writers to, you know, make a living and do do what they love. So thank you for that. The, the literature world needs more of us, I think, and I hope. I agree. Yeah. So thank you for being that light. Well,

Brett Benner: 40:16

I appreciate that. I think we're all now more than ever. I think,, we all need it, whatever that way is to kind of pull each other through, whatever this is. Yeah, I agree. Thank you so much for sitting down with me. The funny thing is that I got on this earlier, we could have done it at one of our houses together, but,, that would've been. But please go out and get the book, buy independent if you can. But, but it's really fantastic. So thank you for being here. I'm, I'm excited to see where all this goes and obviously I'm excited just to hang out. Well, likewise. Well, thank you so much for having me, Brett. This

Lance Garland: 40:51

has been an awesome conversation and, yeah, very real. And boy, I love those conversations that are just real, so thank you.

Brett Benner: 40:59

Thank you again Lance, and if you like what you heard on today's episode of Behind the Stack or on other episodes, please consider liking and subscribing so you never miss an episode. And again, what would be really helpful for me is if you could give the show five stars and if you have the time, possibly a review. All of those things really help to get new eyes on the podcast so I can continue to bring great conversations like this. I'll see you next week with another episode.