Brian Schaefer, Town & Country

In this episode Brett sits down with author Brian Schaefer to discuss his debut novel 'Town & Country'. They delve into his dance history and how that transitioned into writing, what inspired the story, removing outside political influences while writing about politics, and perhaps a favorite musical or two.

Brian's website:

https://www.brian-schaefer.com/about

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https://www.instagram.com/itsbrianschaefer/

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hello and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I am sitting down with debut author Brian Schaefer for his book Town and Country. Brian is a really interesting guy. His work has appeared in the New York Times, the New Yorker, New York Magazine, tablet magazine, the Philadelphian Choir Out Magazine, dance Magazine, the Jerusalem Post, the Daily Beast. The Forward and Moment Magazine from 2013 to 2025, Brian co-wrote the weekly Dance Listings for the New York Times since 2015, he has been a scholar in residence at the Jacobs Pillow Dance Festival in Beckett, Massachusetts, which is America's longest running international dance festival. Brian was a finalist for the 2012 Livington Award for young journalists in the international reporting category for his exploration of the history and politics of Israel's lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community. In 2007, Brian received a National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship in Arts Journalism for Dance Criticism. He was a board member of the Dance Critic Association from 2011 to 2014 and a US State Department Arts Ambassador in 2020. Brian holds bachelor degrees in communication and dance from the University of California, San Diego, and a Master's in Literature creative writing from Bar Lawn University. So please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I am thrilled to be sitting down today with Brian Schafer for his debut novel Town and Country, which is just so good. I, I just loved it. As I was saying to you, it, it hit a lot of spots with me in particular, but I think it will for a lot of people. So thank you so much for being here.

Brian Schaeffer: 1:52

My pleasure. I'm so excited to, to be in conversation. I'm such a fan of the podcast.

Brett Benner: 1:56

Oh my God. Thank you so much. So I wanted to go back just a little bit'cause I'm so curious in the history of Brian. So you have your bachelor's degree in communication and dance from the University of California, San Diego and a Master's in Literature in Creative Writing from, is it Bar, lawn or Bar? Lawn, university Bar, lawn Lon. Yeah. Um, so. You were a

Brian Schaeffer: 2:17

dancer? Yeah, I was a dancer for, for basically the duration of my college career. And then a little bit afterwards in San Diego. I kind of really stumbled into it. I had always loved musical theater. I grew up in a home where both my parents are big musical theater fans, and so more than anything we were listening to cast recordings and so we did the high school musicals and really enjoyed those. Not much of an actor, not much of a singer, but the dancing I could pick up really quickly and really enjoyed it. And it came naturally. And so it would always kind of throw me to the front, of the stage for the dance sequences. And, and so I enjoyed that. And then when I got to, to San Diego. I had no idea what I wanted to study. I went in as general communication with no real understanding of where that would lead. But, a few friends of mine in my freshman dorm said, Hey, they have these fun hip hop dance classes at the recreation department. Let's go do those together. And so we did, and we, you know, and I loved it, loved picking up the choreography. The teacher again would kind of like grab a few of us to be the examples. Then another friend of mine said, well, you know, if you take your dance classes through the dance department, then they're free and you get credit. And so I was like, okay, so I'll start doing that. So I started doing hip hop classes, a little bit of modern, and then the teacher see a tall guy and they basically grab you and throw you on stage. And within a year I was performing in the student dance depart, like the department showcase. And so, and, and I was loving it. And so continue to take these regular dance classes and once you do modern dance and they say, well, you know, you should really take ballet to, you know, to enhance your technique. So all of a sudden I'm taking modern and ballet and hip hop and jazz and more and more I'm taking all these classes through the dance department simultaneously. I'm on the crew team my first year. So it was a bit of a wow, physically exhausting,, physically exhausting year. But I really loved the dance and when I studied abroad in Copenhagen, I kind of immersed myself in the, in the dancing there and went to everything that the Royal Danish Ballet did and fell in love with the art form. And so I came back to San Diego and said, okay, I really want to pursue this. And so I added a second major and stayed a fifth year. And did all of the history and the criticism classes to, to round out the major. And it was actually like the criticism classes that I most fell in love with. And so that's when I started writing about dance.

Brett Benner: 5:00

Mm-hmm.

Brian Schaeffer: 5:01

And, uh, and I had a professor who, when I graduated, she said, you know, you're, you're improving as a dancer and if you wanna pursue that, you'll find a, a place for yourself in the, you know, in the dance field. But dance needs writers and I think maybe that could be your contribution. And it was the first time that I really. I thought about that as an option, and so I, while I continued to kind of perform for a few projects here and there in San Diego, it's when I really started pursuing writing about dance and then contributing a little bit to, I started a personal blog and contributing to small local outlets and that's kind of what led to, wow. I guess kinda the first inkling of of dance, of dance journalism.

Brett Benner: 5:42

Wow. Are, are you still a scholar in residence at Jacob's Pillow?

Brian Schaeffer: 5:46

I didn't do it this summer, but I had for the previous, I

Brett Benner: 5:50

think

Brian Schaeffer: 5:51

nine or 10 summers. Uh, so I've been doing it for a while. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 5:55

Can you just for our listeners and I viewers explain, for people who don't know what Jacob's Pillow is.

Brian Schaeffer: 6:01

Yeah. Jacobs Pillow is the oldest dance festival in the United States. It's in Beckett, Massachusetts. It's this beautiful rural dance campus where the theaters are these beautiful old barns. It's just a really special place. There's farmhouse all over. And since the 19, I guess it was the, it would been in the thirties. Um, forgive me for not knowing the established year, but, but Ted Sean, who was a seminal figure in American modern dance, founded it and started bringing all these international dance figures. And so it's been, has a summer festival since and 10 weeks every summer. And so I've been going, they've put me up in, an adorable little farmhouse. They assigned me to various companies and then it's my responsibility to write the program notes, to give pre-show lectures to moderate post-show conversations. And it's basically they have an incredible archive. And it's just a mecca for dance history. And it's part of the kind of whole Berkshires corridor, so it's not far from Tanglewood with the music and the Williamstown Theater Festival. Yeah. And, it's really a special place.

Brett Benner: 7:07

Now, did you grow up in California or did you grow up in near New York? No, I grew up in Pasadena,

Brian Schaeffer: 7:12

California.

Brett Benner: 7:13

In Pasadena. Oh, okay.

Brian Schaeffer: 7:15

Yeah. So I am, you're born and bred, Southern California. Yeah, born and bred. Grew up in Pasadena. Went to school in San Diego, and so basically was based in California until I was almost 30.

Brett Benner: 7:27

I only thought of that because of your, you talk when you talk about your parents, um, and the whole musical theater thing and taking you to see musicals, and so I immediately assume, oh, well they're in New York and, you know, it's like a weekend thing. That's so that's, that's a, that's amazing.

Brian Schaeffer: 7:40

No, my dad's accounting firm was responsible for the accounting of the music theater of Southern California. Former, the San Gabriel Civic Light Opera, and that was my introduction to Musical favorite.

Brett Benner: 7:51

And you saw every single tour that came through? I saw it

Brian Schaeffer: 7:53

every, and I saw every tour that came through, yes.

Brett Benner: 7:57

Okay. I ha I just have to ask you, is it a version? Like what are your favorites Musicals? My favorite

Brian Schaeffer: 8:01

musicals. Oh my goodness. Well. I would say probably my top musical is cabaret. I am obsessed with it. And, and that also kind of figures into literature a bit because Christopher Isherwood is my favorite Yeah. Writer. And and of course goodbye to Berlin. His collection of of stories, um, is the foundation for cabaret, but I also think it's just such a powerful just. Chilling and thrilling musical and all the different productions,, kind of always give me something new and different and, and I just find it kind of the, such like a, an a stunning example of what like theater can do and be. So that one is Top Rent is, has been such a seminal musical for me. My, when it came through Southern California, I remember my mom took my brothers and I out of school one day. It was I think our Hanukkah gift. One year she took us out of school to go see a, a matinee of rent at, the Almonds and Theater. And we were, we were in high school. And, and seeing that and seeing those stories portrayed on stage. I mean, that was also, I hadn't come out yet and, but had a sense that watching that show was the first time that I had a sense both of, I think these are my people. I think that's my community, and not just because of it's. You know, it's celebrated depiction of the queer characters, but also the artists, people who yeah. Um, had really dedicated their lives to, kind of sharing their work, sharing their stories, creating this community. I really, really responded to that. I think before I was able to understand why. And then of course, there's song time I'm obsessed with Into the Woods. Between that and Twe, uh, Sweeney Todd, probably hard to choose like, which, which of them is my favorite song times. But yeah. But those would probably be top three.

Brett Benner: 9:52

Wow. See, Sunday would be mine of the, of the Sunday ones. Yeah. Yeah. Sunday was my favorite. I also wonder, I was just thinking when you were talking about rent and thinking, like this is when you were, hadn't come out yet. I thought, I wonder if it was also like your mother's like, well maybe this will push something along.

Brian Schaeffer: 10:06

Yeah. It's funny, when I came, when I did ultimately come out to my parents, they, she said that she hadn't necessarily, suspected,, but the fact that she took us to that show I think was. One of the many kind of signals that I had from them that it was gonna be fine's. Great. The, the fact that, you know, that she was able to share that story with us and and that we were able to kind of enjoy it together and to talk about, you know, the story, the characters, the lives. And that there was no kind of discomfort there from, from my parents' perspective. I think was one of the things that kind of allowed me to, not that it, not that coming out didn't have its fears and anxieties, but, but it was those kind of shows of, I think, unconscious on their part, but really, really significant in the way that it created a, an understanding for me that, that I would be fine and accepted and, and still supported and loved. Sure.

Brett Benner: 11:00

Which is amazing. Did you ever think when you started writing, I'm so curious to write a story that involved dance?

Brian Schaeffer: 11:11

Yes, I, I have long thought about it. I still would like to, I'm not sure. I'm not sure yet what that story would be and what I would want it to do. But I think, I think it's ripe for it. I think there's, I mean there are some great examples of novels that involve dance and uh, and that depict it. And I would love to contribute to that canon. I think there should be more. I think it is such a,, writing about dance is so fun and so interesting and, and kind of strange to kind of capture visually what's happening on stage to try and convey that. There's a lot of. I, I think it is, as a writer, it's a really exciting kind of seed for writing. And I think that's one of the things that attracted me to, to dance writing is the fact that it allowed me to, to kind of respond to the poetry on stage with my own kind of poetry. And, and I'm not a poet. I, I just write prose. But there was something about How open dance is to, to interpretation the, the evocative visuals that it presents. That just is such an exciting thing to engage with as a writer, to the challenge of describing it, the, the challenge of communicating and conveying it to readers who aren't there, and then the interpretation of it. It's almost like interpreting a dream, but it allows you to go in really interesting directions. And then of course, you're bringing. Entirely your own, your yourself and your perspective to it. But, but it, it's such an exciting exercise.

Brett Benner: 12:49

Well, and also just that world itself, I mean the, the, you know, the characters, the people that inhabit that world, you know, the, that's so fascinating too. And,

Brian Schaeffer: 13:00

And exactly. And, and the dedication required, the, the training that it takes to get to an elite level and kind of how, How quickly it passes. And I think that's something that is so much a part of the story of dance is, this finite window in which you're, you're really dancing at your best, you're dancing, you know, to your body's largest capacity. And of course there's dance that doesn't require,, you know, the physical. The physical dexterity of, you know, mm-hmm. Of the elite ballet dancers. I mean, there are dancers that dance their entire lives and there's dancing that embraces all different types of bodies and different bodies and older bodies, and that is as beautiful and as exciting. But I think when we think of these kind of, you know. Elite forms and we think about ballet, there is this tiny, tiny window and I think there's something about striving for that and how quickly that that comes and goes. It's inherent drama and of course that's, you know, especially before in a story.

Brett Benner: 13:58

Yeah. So, okay, so speaking of stories, when did it start for you, for town and country? Well, what, I guess you should say this, you, you, you split your time between Manhattan and you have a place in the Hudson Valley, which is kind of the inspiration for the book. But what was the specific seed that took Ruth that said, I think there's something here and I wanna write about it.

Brian Schaeffer: 14:19

There's a congressional race here in 2014 in our district that just, that when I learned of it, I was really interested in the dynamics of it, and it's, it's the dynamics that that. Are mirrored in the congressional race, in town and country, and we have a young gay candidate who has recently purchased a home in in the district to launch his political career. And goes against a, a long time resident of the town who, you know, was the incumbent in this case. And it just kind of put together these really interesting dynamics that, you know, I wasn't voting here at the time, I wasn't involved in that race. I didn't cast a vote in it, but for a lot of my now friends up here, it was a race that raised a lot of questions for them in terms of how they identified with either candidate and what

Brett Benner: 15:09

and,

Brian Schaeffer: 15:10

and it made them raise questions. As to who was actually the best representative of this, of this place, and I think it. Brought up a lot of questions for them in terms of where their loyalties lie. Who do I identify with the, um, and, and do I make a calculation based on the national impact or on, you know, on kind of who is right for this district. And I was, I was interested in the tensions that it kind of brought up, and in particularly amongst my group of friends, some of the discomfort with, with. Who they most identified with and who they felt was, you know, kind of the right person in this, in this instance. And so it made me reflect on. Our role in the community as second homeowners, we are part-time residents. This is a common dynamic across the country in so many different places, and it's a wonderful thing to be able to, you know, and it's, it's truly the ultimate privilege to be able to split your time between two places, one with an exciting urban energy and all of that that brings with the theater and the culture. Conveniences. And then also to escape and to, to really enjoy the beauty of nature and. You know, the Hudson Valley has incredible, an incredible agricultural community. And so it's very special here from a, from a culinary perspective. But there's also, you know, behind that, there are really serious questions in terms of, well, do I have a right to shape the direction of this place if I, if I'm able to vote here, and whose priority should I prioritize as a part-time resident? Do I get to make my national. Priorities, do they supersede the, the needs of the local community? And how well do I understand the needs of the local community? How closely am I looking at them? What do I allow myself to see? Or how much am I insisting on staying in my bubble? And, and so I started thinking a lot about these questions. And the dynamics of that congressional race kind of gave me a structure of a story and for quite a while, I would say for over a year, I just kind of thought about how that might play out in a story. I took notes on it and then kind of ultimately, I, I had been doing journalism since I moved to New York for seven, eight years and really enjoyed that. But it was also getting a little antsy to return to fiction. And so it was in November, 2019 that I decided to do, I had just heard about this and I decided on a whim to do National novel Writing Month, Nan imo, which had been around for a while for. I think 25, 30 years, and it's the month of November. And it's an online community of people who, altogether kind of are pursuing a 50,000 word novel. You write like 2000 words a day. You just spit it out and you get all this, you know, raw material and it's. Definitely not a final version, but if you choose to, there is, you know, there's something there to work with. And so I said, well, I have this fun idea and I'm just gonna use this month and I'm just going to spit it out and see what comes from it. And I did that and it was a great exercise and I had absolutely no intention of taking it any further. And then my husband wanted to read it, so he read it over the, the holidays that year and he said. This is really, this is really interesting. You should pursue this. And I said, okay, great. Sure, that sounds fun. And I'll, you know, I'll carve some time out this spring and summer between all the article deadlines that I have between the Jacobs Pillow,, scholarly residence gigs, and, you know, maybe I'll take a week here and a week there to, explore it a little further. And then of course,, COVID came three months later in March, 2020. And all of my, all the performances that I was writing about went away. Jacobs told it was canceled that year. All the journalism was, was off my plate and I had this rough draft of a novel and I said, well. I think I'm gonna make this my full-time job and I am going to actually make this the thing that I want it to be. And so that's how, wow. That's how the journey started.

Brett Benner: 19:23

Wow. And after one draft, it was done and perfect.

Brian Schaeffer: 19:26

Exactly. Oh,

Brett Benner: 19:28

that's amazing. I never asked you in the beginning for, and I do this generally ask for like a, an elevator pitch, and yet you kind of covered a lot of what the book is, just in your explanation in terms of the. The congressional race that kind of centers this. It's a, it's a large cast of characters that you get to know rather quickly. I'm so curious, is there, was there an entry point with, with someone that you were like, this is who I see this through first and then it kind of spread from there? I think,

Brian Schaeffer: 19:59

I think in a lot of ways it started with the character of Will who is the son of the local candidate, who then falls in with the. Click of gay second homeowners who, for the social circle of the, the young gay candidate who has recently moved to town. And he was the bridge between them. And so I think in a lot of ways he was the starting point to imagine how their worlds might become entangled. And I was interested in finding the characters who would kind of represent both perspectives. I think. You know, there was a version of the novel that could have been kind of, either just from the perspective of the second homeowners or just from the locals kind of looking critically. And I was interested in exploring, kind of all the different. All the different lenses and all the different ways that people might be perceived because it ultimately became, a kind of project in imagining how others view us. And it really started for myself as a, as a project and imagining how our neighbors here by perceive our, our community of friends, our growing group of, of basic homeowners. And I wanted to think of it critically. I it was, self-analysis, self-examination. Personally and kind of communally. And I wanted to, I wanted to find a frame where I could look at that and, and really try and kind of x-ray, kind of who we are, what we're doing in this region, what our impact is, what our responsibilities are, how we think about ourselves, but also the way that these interactions change people and they change the way that you perceive each other and. I think kind of organically it grew to include all these different characters because there were so many different ways that I wanted to enter the story and so many different facets of these dynamics and these communities and these relationships that I wanted to explore. And so yeah, so I ended up with six point of view characters, which if. You if you were to start a novel from scratch, you would never ever do that. It is such a bad idea. If you wanted to sell a debut novel, I highly recommend not having six point of view characters. It's kind of madness it. You know, it, at some point, it, it really became a question of why did I do this to myself? Why did I do this to the story? But also at the same time, it is the thing that grew organically and each of these characters felt that they had something unique to contribute. And each of them has an interaction that, that I think really deepens the themes of the story. And, uh, and I was really. I was really excited to find a way to weave them all together and to see if I could create a kind of fabric of a community. And you know, there's also a version that could have spread out so much further. I mean, in a lot of ways this is also a very, very, very narrow,, view of this community. I mean, it is just a group of friends and just a single local family. And of course the Hudson Valley and, and Hudson and, and the fictional town of Griffin is so much more, so much more faceted and varied and diverse than, than what's depicted here. Um, but I did, you know, even with six point of view, characters want to keep a narrow focus on it.

Brett Benner: 23:19

Well, one of the things I noticed, and I, I'm assuming you chose to do it this way, you never really addressed or say the words Democrat, Republican, and you also kind of remove a timeless, there's a timelessness to it, which it feels now, it feels current, it feels relevant, but I just mean there's no referencing any known politician in a national scale or anything like that. Which makes it very interesting because it does kind of strip away, like you were talking about, for lack of a better word, stereotyping someone and making someone seem less than a multidimensional person. Because there are things that drive people that we don't know what their backgrounds are, and we don't know why they do the things they do necessarily, or what is leading them to do something, or their fears or their thoughts. So that I thought was a really interesting choice to make. I assume it was a very deliberate choice.

Brian Schaeffer: 24:13

Yes. Yeah, definitely deliberate and, and you're exactly right that it is because we bring, we put so much weight on those words and those associations, and as soon as you label someone that. It comes with, uh, it, it comes with so much kind of cultural assumptions and baggage and, you know, and, you know, I'm not, it, it, I didn't do it to be coy, or to suddenly suggest that, you know, the person who you think is the Democrat is actually the Republican. It's, it's not a slight of hand. The person who you think is the Democrat is the Democrat, but. But because we've, we've burdened these, these parties and these terms and these associations with so much, I wanted to, I did exactly wanna strip away kind of what we bring to it, which is also why I decided to set it in a fictional town in an undefined state, both so that people could. Could bring their kind of own experiences to it. So wherever you are in the country, you probably know a, a town, a region, uh, a dynamic that is similar to this. And so I wanted people to see the thing that that kind of most resonated with them, but also to kind of remove any associations with the Hudson Valley, with New York State. And the same reason for setting it kind of out of time was because. I wanted to focus on this place in the moment that it's in and not ask it to respond to whatever's happening in national politics at the time. And, and I recognize that that also kind of strips it of I think some of like the real toxicity that is in our current politics. And one of my. Concerns periodically throughout writing it and even still now, is the way that there is something slightly u utopian about, uh, about this particular place and about the politics of this place and even the people who all are operating with best intentions and that there's no real character who I think reflects some of the real. You know, real bad faith, bad acting, toxic political figures that we see in our culture today that doesn't exist in this story. It doesn't exist in this town. And I worried that it would feel, that it would feel unlike America because it is almost like too, aspirational, I think politically in terms of, of how well people. Essentially behave themselves. And also ultimately kind of respect and are able to see the, you know, see the de decency in each other. But that was also part of the project. It also became something that I wanted to explore is what would a healthy politics look like and how would each of us approaching it as our best selves, what might that do to, to create the kind of politics that we want? And if we focus it kind of. Of the, of the community and the, the politics right in front of us. If we, if we look a little more locally. If we don't concern ourselves with every single breaking news notification, every single political crisis that is happening across the country, but we do focus on strengthening our relationship with our neighbors, on participating in our involvement in our, you know, in our civic life. In, you know, the, the actual vicinity around us, is that maybe some way forward? Is that maybe some way that we can improve the political health of our country? And so this story is an illustration of that, and I think it's kind of like a hopeful, hopeful plea for, for maybe the way that we repair the, the politics of America.

Brett Benner: 27:54

I do think exactly. You said the word aspirational and that's what I was thinking too, because, but, but it is. Aspirational in a way. I identified so much with this, and like you said, it's a microcosm of something larger and the hope is that yes, you can find a way to exist amidst differences. You know, it, it, it is hard with the, like you said, the constant text messages, the constant alerts, the constant 24 hour news cycle that we're, uh, barraged with having a computer in our pockets. I, it was interesting because we, were invited over. To our neighbor's house, um, this past weekend for a, for a drink, and it's a, it's an older straight couple. My husband had met them. I had not met them yet and they couldn't be nicer and more welcoming, but it's so interesting'cause when we walked over, there was a, a flag in the front of their house and they had another flag in the back. And, and I said afterwards, like, it's such a. Crazy thing now that that flag becomes so synonymous with kind of the darker side of what is right now, as opposed to this, you know, what it was say eight years ago when it was not that association. So I had this moment as we're sitting there talking, I had no reason to believe. That they're nothing other than who they're presenting. But I said to my husband later, I said, do you think they're Republican? And he's like, why, why do you think that? And I said, I, you know, I don't know. I, and I said, I, I, I saw the flag and it's stupid. It's totally stupid. I know it, but it's just kind of like conditioning now that that's what I, you know, thinking to believe, and again, there was no, there was no talk of politics. There was nothing like that. It was really talking about the neighborhood, talking about, you know, our homes talking about the best way to, you know, clear brush, you know, the most mundane life stuff. But still, it's just an interesting, I don't know.

Brian Schaeffer: 29:55

And, and if they are, you know, they invited you into their home and you Right. Also kind of invited them into your lives and that, and it sounded like it was a positive interaction completely between neighbors that, you know, who knows? Kind of where politics actually figured into it. But I think there is something, but, but that interaction is valued, you know, is valuable. And, and to build those relationships with, you know, with your neighbors is, is part of the puzzle in terms of kind of how we improve these relations and dynamics and, you know, and if something is, is to flare up in the community, uh, around a particular issue, having built that personal relationship with your neighbors is the thing that is going to allow the community to hopefully. Address it in a more kind of respectful manner.

Brett Benner: 30:45

Yeah, it does feel like, and I think one of the appeals, I think in this book and just generally'cause there is a, a mass appeal for people to say, oh, I want that life. Or, you know, when people vacation, they're going to these small towns and, and looking at them and, you know. The, the Michelin star restaurants that are tucked up in something and the great little bakeries and the, you know, craft shops. All these things that are so appealing to people that makes them think like, oh, this is a simpler life. This is a better life. And one of the things that I love that the book does is. You're showing that. Yeah, but it's also veneer.'cause it doesn't mean, again, when you are showing these local people and the people that have lived there their whole life, what things actually are like and that things are not always this. Kind of wonderland that you might think it is. It's just such an interesting perspective to take the people that are coming in who think that they're going to some kind of shangrila and the people that are there who are watching everyone come in and potentially not only disrupt what they have, but economically make it so they can't even afford. To go to the places that are being put in. Yeah.

Brian Schaeffer: 31:58

One of the most shocking things that we've learned in our time up in the Hudson Valley is that the, is that Hudson is actually considered a food desert that by the percentages of residents who don't have access to affordable food in close proximity by. Kind of national standards, it is considered a food desert, which is, which is crazy because of all the, the tourists and second homeowners who celebrate the farm to table restaurants and these, you know, wonderful farm stance and everything. But the price is out of range and uh, a lot of that food is unaffordable to, uh, a really significant chunk of the full-time Hudson population. So that's kind of been an area where my husband and I have gotten really involved in food access and food equity and we've. We're on the board of the, this really, really full, uh, community supported tiered grocery store that has, you know, various levels of, of pricing so that you know. Wealthier patrons can buy at a, at a retail level, and there's subsidized prices for community members. And so kind of everybody is able to participate in a healthier food ecosystem. But it's that kind of thing where the whole, you know, the point of the book is saying if. You have to look to, you have to look at what's around you. You have to look at this place that you are, at a deeper level to, to understand the dynamics, to understand the vast experiences of the people that you live amongst. And, and, and look, it's, it's, and it, it is both a call and a critique of, you know, of people who kind of otherwise will just stay. Stay at their pools and, and live in their weekend bubbles. And, and there's nothing wrong with that either. I mean, you, you have your escape. You have your home, you build your community. It is a beautiful, wonderful thing, but it does keep you blinkered if you don't choose to look beyond it. Um, and, and I think it's also a missed opportunity to, um. To not actually build those relationships and reach out with the, the people you live amongst and mm-hmm. You know, and, and this applies to whether you only live in, in one place. It doesn't necessarily need to apply to, to second homeowners. Um, but I think. I think one of the things, you know, we were talking about, uh, just the idea of, of showing up, you know, that is, that is kind of the big, I think, call of, of the book is that wherever you are, um, like make the effort to, to step outside to. Be part of your community in whatever way that looks like. Enjoy the, enjoy the circle and the friends and the, that you've built. And also be sure to look beyond it, to kind of understand the, the issues that wherever you live are facing. Do a little something to, to participate in that.

Brett Benner: 34:46

Do you feel more at home in one of your places, in either the Valley or in Manhattan?

Brian Schaeffer: 34:54

I think they offer very different things and I feel at home in different ways in each place. Mm-hmm. And I have different routines and, and, and different communities. I think one of the challenges is I, I think there is, um. There is something that is lost also when you do split your time where you're not actually able to just kind of fully be present in one place. I think for all the blessings that you know, being able to toggle these two homes. Uh, I think there's, uh, I think there's a cost to that as well in terms of your ability to build deeper relationships, your ability to be fully involved. There's a lot of opportunities up in the Hudson Valley that I'd love to participate more in, and I can't offer the consistency of my time given how much we, you know, go back and forth. Right. And that's same in the city too. And so, you know, I think. I, I think there is something, I think there is like a cost to it in terms of like, um, not being fully present. And that's something that kind of comes up for a few characters in the book as well, where there are, there are pros and cons and there are awesome benefits and I think it's something that I struggle with often is wanting to, to really just feel more rooted in one place and, and sometimes when you're moving back and forth. You, you sacrifice that and I think it's, it's, it is like one of the costs of, of having this privilege.

Brett Benner: 36:29

I think it'll be interesting to come back to you and see in 10 years if that, if that answer changes to see if one pulls you more or if you just feel like, because of exactly what you said, feeling like, you know what? I want to feel a little more. Rooted, so to speak. I

Brian Schaeffer: 36:45

definitely write better, in the Hudson Valley. I mean, I definitely, it's definitely the place that I come when I want to, slow down and think and, and really kind of allow my mind to be in a creative space. I, I find it, I find it far more productive up here.

Brett Benner: 37:06

Yeah, that's interesting that you say that.'cause I was talking to my business partner the other day and I just said, I find it so much easier. Same thing to focus here and I can just kind of narrow in which I, you know, in LA it was constantly, there was always something and, and that's just, you know. Noise, pollution, you know, the helicopter over the house and the blowers and the, you know, dogs barking and all of it. Were here. I hear a speedboat go by or, you know, I hear a tugboat. It's kind of cool. But I, uh, it was when you were talking earlier about just a few minutes ago. Two of the characters in the book that I found so interesting, and I don't wanna get too into it because I don't wanna give any spoilers, but it talks about that when you were just saying characters who struggle, uh, with these things that you're talking about. And that's the Eric and Dalton relationship. Eric is one of these people who are the out of towners who come in and Dalton is a, a man who lives in the town and I. I loved this relationship. I loved their dynamic. I loved watching these two people get to know each other. There's something I, when I was going through the book, it reminded me in a way of Armstead Moin, because you do take all these, stories and these characters, and you're putting them in this place. Like he did with Barbara Lane and, and we're watching them and how they all are going to thread together. I thought of that a lot of times and I actually got to the end of it and I thought. Not that you would, and certainly I'm not telling you what to do, but you always could return to these people in some other kind of circumstances because I think there's so much there that is so ripe, and especially when you look at, you know, will as well. And his maturation in terms of who he's becoming as this local kid and the world that he's kind of being exposed to. And again, we talk about aspiration, aspirational, and uh. I just think there's a lot of meat there, but that's, you know. Interesting.

Brian Schaeffer: 39:10

Well, thank you. I'm glad that Eric and Dalton resonated. They were certainly favorite characters of mines and and I think they, I think they are kind of like the core illustration of like, what happens when you encounter someone whose experiences are so different from you and what that can do in terms of. Opening up your understanding of yourself and, and your understanding of your surroundings. And, and one person can, can really be the kind of entry point and the guide to that. And also the most unlikely person, the most like unexpected person. Sure. Um, who, you know, just, just opens up. All these possibilities and, and so, um, that was a relationship that was not necessarily planned or plotted from the beginning, but one that kind of, I think really kind of grew organically and then, and came to take on a larger and larger, both storytelling and also symbolic role in the story. And so, again, not to. Give any spoilers, but, but the fact that you know, that they're the people that we, you know, that we kind of continue with and, and kind of ultimately conclude the story with is, was a surprise to me, but also felt like the most right way to, um, to kind of come to the end of, of this chapter for these characters.

Brett Benner: 40:28

Well, the book is like, is terrific. Please go out and get it. Buy independent if you can, if you're able to. But congratulations, it is it. It's really wonderful.

Brian Schaeffer: 40:39

Thanks so much, Brad. It was really a pleasure to speak with you.

Brett Benner: 40:42

Thank you again, Brian, and if you've liked this episode or other episodes that you've heard of behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. Also, what would be incredibly helpful for me and for the podcast is if you could. Rate the show with five stars, and if you have the time to write a review, all of these things are incredibly helpful to put the podcast in the eyes of other people who haven't seen it or heard it before. Thanks again everybody, and have a really lovely week.