Rob Franklin, Great Black Hope

In this episode Brett sits down with Rob Franklin to discuss his debut novel, "Great Black Hope". They talk about  the intersection of race, class and queerness, Black respectability politics, blending fact and fiction to create a vibrant New York City, and his non for profit initiative Art for Black Lives .

Rob's website:

https://www.robert-michael-franklin.com

Rob's instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/robfrank__/

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hello everybody. It's Brett Benner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I'm sitting down with author Rob Franklin for his debut novel, great Black Hope. A little bit about Rob. He was born and raised in Atlanta. He's a writer of fiction, criticism and poetry, and is co-founder of Art for Black Lives fiction fellow. And finalist for the New England Review Emerging Writer Prize. He has published work in New England, review, Prairie Schooner and the Rumpus among others. Franklin holds a BA from Stanford University and an MFA from N NYU's Creative Writing Program. He lives in Brooklyn and teaches writing at the School of Visual Arts. So now please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I'm really thrilled to be sitting down today with author Rob Franklin, whose debut novel Great Black Hope is, it's so good. It's been a while since I've seen such crazy pre-publication like, hype on a book, and I think it's so warranted. So congratulations first off, and, and, and thank you so much for being here.

Rob Franklin: 1:13

Of course. Thank you so much for having me, Brett.

Brett Benner: 1:15

Before we launch into the book, and there's so much to unpack with Smith, I'm just so curious. So you grew up in Atlanta?

Rob Franklin: 1:23

Yes, I did. Grew up in Atlanta and now have been in New York for coming up on 10 years.

Brett Benner: 1:29

Were you an only child?

Rob Franklin: 1:31

No, I have an older sister and a half brother who's like 10 years older. Yeah, so he grew up in Chicago and then my sister and I grew up in Atlanta.

Brett Benner: 1:41

Okay. Well so then let me ask you this question.'cause when I was trying to like deep dive on you last night, and I love doing this to like find out information about an author, now is your dad, does he share your name?

Rob Franklin: 1:52

Yes, he does.

Brett Benner: 1:54

Okay, so he was in Morehouse that's him, right?

Rob Franklin: 1:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was the president of Morehouse College, which applicable to the book and like very. Yeah, openly. The, the family resembles my family in many ways and like, um, the father in Great Black Hope is the, the president of a fictional historically black college, which is definitely kind of inspired by my dad's role at Morehouse.

Brett Benner: 2:19

I was looking at your dad and I. Well, well, now that I know it's your dad, but I was looking at his picture and I was like, that totally can be. I'm like, that's too coincidental. It's too coincidental. So I Oh, that's so cool. Were you always a reader when you were young?

Rob Franklin: 2:34

Yeah. I mean, well, so no, my parents, my parents would say, especially my mom, like. She really struggled to get me to read when I was a kid, and I mean, she jokes slash just remembers because it's just a fact that like the only books I would read for a long time were. Some, some genius in marketing had figured out that they could just print the scripts from the Kenan NAL show, on Nick Nickelodeon, just put them in book form and sell them as books. And so for many years that was like the only thing she could get me to read. And then I, you know, like mini millennials, sort of Harry Potter really like, kind of made me a reader. And. Then after that, I mean, I think starting really like middle high school, I was a big reader, and kind of like started to find my own sort of like reading taste in, in high school.

Brett Benner: 3:32

And then when did the poetry start for you? Did you discover poetry as a reader first and then begin to, to experiment and write it yourself? Or how did that happen?

Rob Franklin: 3:41

Yeah, I mean, it really came through. Um, a good friend of mine's sophomore year of high school gave me this book called Crush by Richard Syken. Mm-hmm. Which, I mean, it's still probably my favorite book, or, or one of them. And it's a book of poetry. It's about kind of young love and like a queer relationship. And it had this sense of like, urgency. It was very like formally distinct and exciting to me. And it just felt, it felt so different from the kind of like canonical poetry we were reading in English class. And so that was the first thing that like really made me want to write. And like soon thereafter, I basically started writing what I would call basically like Exactly mimicking Richard second style, you know, kind of copycat poetry. Yeah. And like, you know, I think that there's something to be said for. Doing that as an exercise, you know, like Didion talks about like kind of consuming all of Ernest Hemingway and, and like rewriting his sentences to kind of like figure out how they work and what their rhythms were. And, and I think I really did that with, with that book. Like I tried to kind of replicate that style and got pretty good at, at kind of like parroting it. And it was only once I then like. Continued reading poetry and got really into like Claudia Rankin and Mark Doty and, and a bunch of other poets that I, you know, I had more references.

Brett Benner: 5:07

Yeah,

Rob Franklin: 5:07

yeah. Kind of in the bucket. Um, and slowly but surely, really when I was kind of starting to go into college, I think I started to forge something more like a voice, um, that felt, that felt like my own.

Brett Benner: 5:20

You went to Stanford, correct?

Rob Franklin: 5:22

Yes, I did.

Brett Benner: 5:23

And, what was your major?

Rob Franklin: 5:24

So I studied political science, and at the time I, I wanted to be a journalist. I was very like, I mean, I told people I wanted to be a journalist, I think.

Brett Benner: 5:34

Do you think that was your, was that parental influence as well?

Rob Franklin: 5:36

I think, yeah. Like I knew that I wanted to write and the only sort of career path that I knew. Involving writing that was like a sort of stable career. Or at least it seemed it at the time, was journalism. And, so I was, majoring in political science and then taking creative writing classes just kind of for fun, and eventually realized I had enough classes to make a minor out of it. Mm. So I minored in creative writing with a, with a focus in poetry. And then I was interning for papers and I interned for like NPR for Buzzfeed, and I think slowly but surely, was kind of realizing that actually the thing that I liked about writing was like making sentences pretty, not. Not like reporting. And therefore that like journalism probably was not actually the path for me. Um, and also, I mean, that would would've been from 2011 through 2015. So really when journalism was kind of undergoing a reinvention,, I mean, it was a really changing landscape and I was also just realizing that it wasn't kind of what I actually wanted to do. So ended up then like completely pivoting when I, when I graduated.

Brett Benner: 6:48

Okay. And then you did your MFA at, NYU?

Rob Franklin: 6:51

Yes. Yeah, so I then after college. I mean, I worked in like business consulting for a couple years, which I hated. And then I worked in tech for a couple years, which was fine and like gave me more time to kind of write nights and weekends. And was always kind of working on, actually at the time, a different novel set in Berlin. And kind of told myself if I could, if I could finish a draft of that, I would let myself pursue it full time. And I did, and I, I moved to Berlin and, and worked on that. And while I was in Berlin, I sort of decided I wanted a little bit more structure and rigor, to like a writing practice. And I decided to apply for, for MFAs and then ended up, as you said it, NYU.

Brett Benner: 7:33

Okay, two things. So I'm so curious what happened to that novel? Are you ever gonna go back to it?

Rob Franklin: 7:39

So that's very much up, up for discussion now. I mean, I, I mean, I. I literally, I went to a reading of my thesis advisor, Katie Kitura last night, who shares an agent with me and I was talking to our agent and being like, oh yeah, we should get lunch and like talk about the next book.'Cause I do have an idea for a next one, like a new idea, but I also haven't really shown any of, I haven't showed like my agents or editor this other. Complete manuscript, but it, it would need a substantial amount of work. Yeah. You know, I started it when I was 24, 23. Um, and at this point, I haven't even read it for five years. So I am, I'm curious what they'll say. I mean, I, I do have a lot of love for that book, but I, I realized when I was in my MFA, like. And I, I was working on the first draft of Great Black Hope my first year and bringing into workshop the existing draft of this Berlin book. And, you know, it was, people were responding well to it, but I was kind of realizing like, in a way the Berlin book felt like something someone else could have written and Now very excited to read Aria Arbor's book. Good Girl. Which, um, great, you know, yeah. I've heard really good things about, is kind of like a youth culture Berlin novel and you know, like she grew up there and I think it, it sounds like it's so specific to her experience and great Black Hope is that book for me, like, great By Hope is a book. Yeah. No, it's, it's funny, they,

Brett Benner: 9:10

they can almost be companion pieces in some ways and they're very different stories, but because of the age, a lot of it, yeah.

Rob Franklin: 9:17

Yeah, where it's just like, I can't imagine anyone else writing this book in, at least in the particular way that I did. And, and so like, I think that felt really good, especially for a debut to be like,

Brett Benner: 9:30

yeah,

Rob Franklin: 9:30

here is a book that is also about the world that I came from. And is a sort of like introduction to. You know, noxious like my, my voice, but my kind of worldview. So yeah, I, I think I'm still figuring out what will, what will happen with that other manuscript and, and just kind of what's the next thing.

Brett Benner: 9:48

Well, it would be interesting to see if you decide to kind of reopen it. Just how you view it now after having not looked at it for a while and gone through this experience of finishing this and now what you're about to embark on as this gets, you know, kind of released into the world, how your, uh, views of it could change in, in either a positive or negative ways. That'll be interesting. Yeah. I'm gonna work backwards from the book for one second because I, I loved your acknowledgements page so much because it is one of the most, um, eclectic and diverse group that you talk about. Being your inspiration and, and also just kind of what you used when you were writing this book from, from Joan Didion to Charlie XCX, and I loved that so much.'cause it also just spoke volumes just about you. It's almost like going into someone's apartment and seeing their bookshelf and seeing what they actually read or breaking into their Spotify playlist to see what they actually listen to, gives indications of kind of like who you're dealing with. So I loved that. But you also. went to school with one of my favorite authors from, from last year, August Thompson.

Rob Franklin: 10:55

Oh, yeah.

Brett Benner: 10:55

His book was so beautiful and glorious and I, it was one of my favorite books from last year, so when I saw that, I was like. Wait, what? And he's such a great guy, so I I love that, that you two are, are friends and had that, that, you know, shared experience together.

Rob Franklin: 11:10

Yeah. August left my house two hours ago. He was crashing in my basement for the basketball days.

Brett Benner: 11:15

That's hilarious.

Rob Franklin: 11:16

Yeah, August is, is one of my good friends. And yeah, I mean, I feel like I really kind of lucked out with my MFA cohort and had a bunch of, but the writers I really, whose work I really loved, but also who count as some of my closest friends now and, yeah, I mean, I, I I I love that you first of all read the acknowledgements and that always, um, you kind of, responded to this sort of, LEC eclecticism of Who really feel like the kind of spiritual references for this book and like, you know, it's funny, I was, I was putting together. My ex-boyfriend was like, oh, you should make a playlist as like a kind of companion Yeah. For the novel. And I was kind of doing that as an exercise and like even that playlist is it's Nina Simone and it's Solange and it's Charlie XCX and uh, it's Jay-Z and Tupac. It is such a kind of wide ranging. Set of kind of textures and sounds, and styles, which all I, I felt all of them I think when I was sort of like writing this book and

Brett Benner: 12:20

Yeah. And it, and all very evocative of what is of the book. Okay. So, for our listeners, do you have kind of an elevator pitch for the book?

Rob Franklin: 12:28

Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, the book, great Black Hope it Follows, A Black Gay 20 something named Smith, who in the aftermath of in arrest for cocaine possession in the Hamptons has to confront his relationship to race class addiction and grief in the dizzying aftermath of his best friend's mysterious death.

Brett Benner: 12:51

Okay. So where I wanna launch off, we kind of start the beginning when he, this arrest is happening, but do you think for him, L'S death was the kind of catalyst for everything for him in terms of. For lack of a better word, his spin out.

Rob Franklin: 13:07

Hmm. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I, I did consider, and at various points, I think during the, the kind of like revision process, it was suggested maybe to start with Elle's death and like see that scene in the kind of like present timeline of the novel rather than through flashback. And for me. I knew that I wanted to start with his arrest in part because like, I mean, just the way that the kind of court dates are structured, it just felt like a, maybe like a kind of cleaner structure for me, to think about the novel and like have basically, I mean, those three court dates that, that we see, be kind of spread across the, the novel. But I also, I mean, I, I definitely think of. Elle's death as the catalyst, but also like a catalyst that also is forcing him to reflect on existing, kind of like structural issues in his life. Which are like the way that the kind of like black respectability politics that he's been raised in have kept him from in some ways really knowing himself, really knowing what it is he wants, and have. Caused him to kind of like perform a version of himself that he thinks is like, palatable to various audiences, in a way that's like ultimately kind of self-destructive and, and totally, confining and like would have found, would've come to a head even were it not for Elle's death, but I think Elle's death and the kind of media response to it. Highlights a lot of these kind of, issues in, in this like incendiary way that he, he can't look away from. And definitely kind of accelerates his own descent.

Brett Benner: 14:58

Yeah, it's code switching and he's very adept at that in, in such a variety of situations. And watching him, the difference between, and we all do it, look, everyone does it. So I think it's such an identifiable thing in terms of who he is with his parents versus who he is with this group of friends versus who he is with another group of friends. It's such an interesting narrative to me because, the narrative as an observer because not only are these things happening to him, but we're entering his world and kind of what he's perceiving, and it's almost this commentary on everything that's going on around him. Hmm. And I found that so interesting. Was that something you wanted to intentionally do?

Rob Franklin: 15:40

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's interesting with like the Smith character. you know, in, in many ways, like we have a lot of biographical similarities, but he is a much more, I think he's a much more passive character. He's a much more passive person than I am, and like I do really like writing from that perspective because it's like when someone Is really observing the scene and like can be a kind of cipher through which to look at these worlds. Yeah. You're, you're as a writer maybe able to inhabit a more kind of like almost anthropological, point of view. Mm-hmm. Um, and so yeah, like I, I definitely wanted his, you know, we're in third person, but like, kind of in Smith's perspective for. For the whole of the novel and, wanted that perspective to be a way to look at these different worlds and like watch the way that he shifts and his kind of like performance of himself shifts in these different spaces.

Brett Benner: 16:37

I have to pull the book up for a second because, There's a whole section talking about this idea of. As a, as a black man to be good. And it says Smith had fallen without question into the opposite camp. Try hards. Gluttons for whom good was not good enough. He wanted it all and always right. Now, do you think this desire is a product of his. Upbringing and being black and, and being, told to excel and be better than, or do you think it was part of that it was being gay or do you think it was an intersection of both?

Rob Franklin: 17:10

Yeah, I mean, I think definitely an inter, an intersection of both where, you know, with that, with basically like my parents' generation or Smith's parents' generation, like so much of the kind of what. Their children were schooled in, was like the kind of like twice as good ethos. Like you've gotta, you've gotta be twice as good to get half as much. Mm-hmm. Um, and with Smith, I mean he, he grows up in this kind of like upper middle class black family in Atlanta, but then he goes to a kind of conservative white southern prep school. Where both his race and his like queerness are very other. And yeah, I mean I definitely think when a person feels completely other or alienated, there's a kind of,, almost like f you impulse to be, to be excellent, and to be undeniable. And I think that Smith feels that very strongly. And like that section of the book that you read from, it talks about other. Black students who are kind of in those same spaces, basically picking one of two paths where either they picked this yeah, twice as good path. and they created a public persona that was like kind of predicated on like intellect, cleanliness. Like all of these things that are, are, that are kind of like anti-black ecosystem. Um, wants to tell us like, black blackness is not right. Right. Or, or they kind of rebelled and like in that rebellion, kind of go into a kind of self-destructive direction where they say, I am not going to, exist within and exceed the expectations of this kind of like white ecosystem. You know, I'm, I'm going to be unapologetically whatever. And yeah, I mean, I think Smith Smith sees himself very much as somebody who like chose one of those paths until this arrest, in one second sort of like puts him on this other track.

Brett Benner: 19:15

Yeah. Yeah. It's so crazy. He is referred to at one point, it, it's either by Carolyn, I'm not remembering who says it about him, but says,, he's either an intellectual dom or an emotional one. Yes. Yourself. Do you view yourself as either one of those things?

Rob Franklin: 19:34

Um, yeah. So that's a, a flashback to the l character describes him as Yes. Um, and that's funny. So that is pulled from my friend Brandon once did say that about me. Oh, really? So that is, that is, I mean, maybe not in exactly those words, but I, I sort of put that, yeah. That was pulled, uh, uh, pulled from my real life. Bit of dialogue. Um, yeah, the idea and was it as a

Brett Benner: 19:58

ribbing or was it, or is it like a dig? What do you think? Or it could have been the same.

Rob Franklin: 20:02

I think it was both. I think it was ribbing, but I think he was kind of like, in the context that it's used in the book,, Smith Smith actually, like, he thinks it's sort of fun to be, smarter in quote, quote, unquote, than his partner, his like romantic partner. Yeah. And then else like, you know, you're kind of an intellectual dom or emotional if you want to get dark. Um, I mean, I hope I'm not an emotional dom and I think with, with age, I definitely like am much more drawn to people who I think are. Smarter than me. Romantically, I think, yeah, like that, that is probably,, maybe a holdover from like my mid twenties. Mm-hmm. That like desire to feel in some ways superior. And like how that can create all these like messed up power dynamics in a kind of sexual, romantic relationship.

Brett Benner: 20:58

It's interesting'cause he also says, Smith says, there's a quote, he's not so much interested sexually and gratification as being desired, which almost plays into some of this in a way, what you're talking about a little bit.

Rob Franklin: 21:08

Totally.

Brett Benner: 21:09

And part of that could speak to youth. As well, because of how much we put on, uh, youth and beauty and, and the objectivity of that.

Rob Franklin: 21:19

Yeah. You know, again, it is kind of like his, like golden boy syndrome of, of just like wanting to get validation, wanting to get this sort of external validation. And, and also, you know, I mean that chapter is very explicitly talking about his relationship to his queerness, his relationship to like sexual and romantic relationships with primarily white men and like, yeah, this, this maybe his kind of like core wound in that area being, being a feeling of like being undesired or being other. Like with even within the gay community, which is something we see in a couple scenes, um, in Great Black Hope is like Smith feeling kind of alienated among groups of, of mostly white, cis gay men. And so yeah, like this desire to just feel desired, I think is, is really kind of born from that inferiority complex that then can present as like wanting to feel superior to a lot of people that he's like in relationship with rather than kind of. Meeting them in a place of like mutual respect and trust. Like I don't think he feels able to trust a lot of his kind of partners.

Brett Benner: 22:35

Yeah, and it's interesting because when I was thinking back on the book, I thought, whose closest friends are all women? And the way he relates to most men or talks about many men in the book is in terms of like fucking, or sexually, rather than having. You know, later there are, um, you have some non-binary characters who he has friendships with, but there's no one that I would say, like, say cisgendered males who are in his life, who are prevalent, lemme put it that way. They're in his life. No, totally not as a centralized character, which I think is interesting, but also I, what you talk about, I think is very resonant in terms of having conversations with. Black friends and black gay male friends who've talked about that same thing in terms of the kind of, uh, invisibility. And we've heard a lot of talk about that and feeling invisible in kind of the white, gay culture and in terms of attraction and, um, so it's, it's, it's really interesting.

Rob Franklin: 23:36

Yeah, and I, I feel like something that. You know, it's a conversation I think I have with like black gay friends, but I, I don't see represented a ton in media. Um, and I, I, I think that like both in the queer community with race and then in the black community with class, because we are, are like communities that are often under attack from like outside, there's a desire to not like foreground. Like infighting. Yeah. Um, and to not basically like air our dirty laundry. And I mean, I, I definitely see that, especially in the black community with, with class like, a desire to kind of deny a, a very prevalent, Divisions along kind of class lines. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I think part of what I wanted to do with this book was to like, make those conversations visible.

Brett Benner: 24:30

He's a great relationship generally with his parents. And that's the other thing. First of all, I loved that both his father and Smith are, are called just the Smiths. And I love that you did that.

Rob Franklin: 24:42

Yeah, like that ha calling them the David Smiths. Um, like in unison, like having them when they go out to the Hamptons for these court dates, you know, sleep in twin beds next to one another. I do think that there is, I mean, maybe I'm also like, I dunno that I was actually thinking about this when I wrote it, but there is a way that like. You know, his dad being his kind of, often his like companion or always his companion for these court dates, like the court system kind of diminishes this man who's like, this big impressive presence in the world that he exists in. Mm-hmm. Like they both kind of just like become boys. Like when confronted with. The, the court system. And so you know, in, in a way referring to them as like the Smiths or the David Smiths and like having them Yeah. Like sleeping in these like twin beds. Like they almost be like twins.

Brett Benner: 25:34

How old are your parents?

Rob Franklin: 25:35

My parents are, I guess my dad's in his early seventies. He's 71. My mom's like 66.

Brett Benner: 25:41

So they're young. Are you close with your parents?

Rob Franklin: 25:43

I'm close with everyone in my immediate family. I mean, yeah, I, I obviously like there have been growing pains. Sure. Um, but I, I would say, I'm really lucky. I have really great supportive parents and like I do, even when I. I have had issues with them. I like do immensely kind of respect and admire them. And my sister, is like one of my closest friends and, and I'm, I'm very, very close to, and I'm, I'm also very close to my brother.

Brett Benner: 26:17

I asked because I thought about like the sexuality of the character and it's not an issue with like the parents. Which. I was, I was glad to see, I was glad that it wasn't also that narrative as well I just thought that was, that was refreshing. Because I know sometimes for me personally, anytime I get a, a, a narrative with a queer character, I mean, I love a coming of age story, but for so long there were so many coming of age stories of like the trauma of coming out. And I was like, I, I sometimes want us as, readers and. Writers to go beyond that now and like just present people who are queer as a, as a, uh, facet of their first personality, not just the defining characteristic, you know?

Rob Franklin: 26:56

Totally. I mean, that has definitely been something that people have, again, something I don't know that I intentionally wrote into the book, but I. Read, maybe it was like a good Reads review, which I know I'm not supposed to be reading, but sometimes I do. No, don't. It's hard not to. I know. But I think someone did say something that was like, I like that the character, you know, is queer, but that's not like the kind of like defining facet of his personhood. And I mean, you know, the book is still very much about identity and about like identity markers, but very foregrounded. In, in at least this moment in his life is his kind of like race and class identity. Yeah. Um, yeah. And so his, his queerness? Yeah. Like his or his, like being a gay man, like doesn't really, we don't get into,. Maybe some of the kind of conventional like tropes of, trauma or alienation from the family, in the coming out narrative, which I mean, you know, I, I think like that is still a lot of people's experience and there's, there's a lot of absolutely, uh, validity to writing about that. But, you know, that wasn't really my experience and that wasn't really something that I, I had a great deal of interest in, in like looking at or portraying.

Brett Benner: 28:03

One of the other things that's so great in the book, and it's such a, a vivid portrayal is, is how you color the city. Hmm. It really much comes out like a character in itself and, two of the most vivid things. And I love a book that can pull on, real things that make me suddenly put the book down and look it up to be like, is he, is this just made up or is this real? One of which is the MoMA exhibit that, which, uh, is so fantastic that Tilda Winson did and I remember that so distinctly. I mean, I didn't see it live, but I remember that going on and being like, what the fuck? Also, the Keith Herring drawing, which I did not know about. And it's so funny because I got his biography, the Brad Gooch biography, like the end of last year, and I haven't read it yet. Um, but I immediately had to look it up because it's so descriptive and I was like, oh, Keith, there's that part of that drawing. I loved it so much and I will tell, like the listeners and viewers here today that. Yeah, after or during reading the books, they should absolutely go to your Instagram because you have such incredible photos of friends and parties that look literally like they're pulled from this novel or vice versa.

Rob Franklin: 29:15

Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, yeah, I think, my interest Yeah. With like kind of creating a New York There's a balance of, there are a lot of places that really exist in New York that are in the book, like say like the Oon, that are these kind of like iconic New York institutions that I think gave, I wanted people who live here who have spent time here I wanted it to really feel like New York and like I wanted them to kind of, I definitely wanted it to be like geographically accurate and feel true to the city and, and. Especially like that time, the kind of like 2010s in, in New York. And then there are also places that are, for instance, like the restaurant Nuccio, where we have, um, we have a scene like the opening of this restaurant is invented, you know, feels kind of loosely inspired by like a Budokan or like these sort of like cavernous, like meat packing district restaurants that are like park club apart, like. Overpriced whatever restaurant. And like wanting to have fun with creating my own and like make it so kind of cavernous and luxurious and like have like this like secret lounge in the back. And, and so like having, having a balance of places that I invented. That still felt kind of like true to the city, but also like gave me a a degree of just like, freedom to, to create.

Brett Benner: 30:41

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Totally. I was almost gonna say, are you someone who is a nightlife person? Are you someone who, has always enjoyed that?

Rob Franklin: 30:47

Yeah, I mean I definitely used to be like, when I first moved to the city and I like, was, was working in, in management consulting, First of all, I was 22. I had a lot of energy and like also in part because I was not that good at that job, I was often unstaffed. And when you're unstaffed in consulting, like you're still just getting paid a salary, um, but you're not having to go to into work every day. And I was going out a lot. Yeah. I mean I was definitely like going to, to kind of like the clubs. And now, you know, I'm in my thirties. I'm less interested going to a, a kind of club though. I, I certainly still will occasionally. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I feel like everyone who is in New York has gotta have that, that era where they like never cook at home and, you know, if they're, if they're able to make it work, are out five nights a week and, and kind of just saying yes to everything,

Brett Benner: 31:42

Well, and some of the city is designed because you're living in smaller spaces, so you're gathering in larger ones. I remember first moving to Los Angeles and being like. Oh, people go to each other's houses now. I understand. People would've a lot more dinner parties and, that's where you would do it. But New York was always, you know, meet me here at this time. I'm just going home to change and get a shower and then I'll meet you out wherever. I wanted just to veer for one second from the book and, I wanted to ask you about Art for Black Lives. Can you talk about that for a second?

Rob Franklin: 32:12

Yeah, for sure. Um, so Art for Black Lives is a, now we're kind of on hiatus, but, a nonprofit initiative. That basically allows artists to donate prints for sale. And then we donate all of the proceeds to organizations that provide material support to the black trans community. And it was kind of born out of, I started it with my friend Camila, who's, a curator in Berlin, um, summer of 2020. So kind of shortly after. The George Floyd protests, sort of amid, there were a few projects like this that we'd seen,, most of them that were, that were basically ways to raise money for bail funds for mm-hmm. Protesters. And we saw like a kind of longer term, more like sustainable. Version of the, the kind of like nonprofit print sale, yeah. As viable where we were sort of, I think, you know, in that moment, in that chaotic pandemic and like protest full summer, you know, I was home in Atlanta with, with, at my parents' house and like going to protest, but, but kind of being like, I dunno, what, what can I. Do in this moment. Yeah. Um, and in conversations with my friend Camila, we were kind of like, you know, one thing we, we both do have is like the eyeballs of a lot of like wealthy young people. And like one thing we can do is kind of redirect resources in a, in a real way. And so, yeah. And so we started this, this project, art for Black Lives, which, we ran kind of regularly for the first, maybe like two and a half years. We did, five or six rounds and worked with a ton of great artists like Marilyn Minter and Laurie Simmons, Simmons and a, a bunch of people I'm, I'm a massive fan of, and we're able to raise like a quarter of a million dollars for, for these organizations. So, yeah, I mean, I, I still think it's, it's such a. It's such a great fundraising model and I think in the future, you know, we kind of went on hiatus'cause she had a baby and, and like became a director at a gallery. I sold this book and needed to kind of focus on, on getting this past the finish line. But, I hope we can kind of continue to, to use. The, the sort of network we've built, in, in new ways.'cause yeah, we also got to do like an artist residency, um, and, and a few other things that have, have allowed us to kind of expand the vision of what the project could be. That's so cool. So yeah, it is really cool. Thank you.

Brett Benner: 34:53

My last question, is there anything you're reading right now that you're loving?

Rob Franklin: 34:56

Such a good question. So I. I think I'm, I may reread audition, which is, oh my gosh, Katie Kamara's new book, which I, I love so much. Um,

Brett Benner: 35:06

it's Talk about unpacking God.

Rob Franklin: 35:08

Yeah, and I think it's, it Bears rereading like I, so I went to her, I think I mentioned, I went to her reading last night and I'd read a galley of it in November and didn't really know anything about it at the time. And like, you know, without giving anything away, I do feel like now that I kind of. Know the structure of it, even if I don't totally like, understand it, it bears like rereading. Um,

Brett Benner: 35:32

I think I said the exact, I said the exact same thing. I was like, I don't know exactly that I'm comprehending everything that's happening here, but I think this is incredible. Like, I was just like, like some of the, and I was like, uh, oh my God.'cause you know, there's that point when you're like, wait. What?

Rob Franklin: 35:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett Benner: 35:50

And she is a master of brevity and getting to so much, so succinctly with so little. It's really genius.

Rob Franklin: 35:57

Yeah. I mean, yeah. She's one of my, one of my favorite writers. Um. Yeah, I love her writing so much. And, and so I think I'm, I'm gonna reread that. Um, I'm also reading my friend Alexis OK Yoo's, uh, memoir slash like book of reportage, um, called Blessings and Disasters, A Story of Alabama. And it's about, I. Do you, have you heard this? No, I just, I just,

Brett Benner: 36:20

well, I only because when I was on your Instagram Yeah. I saw their face and I was like, gosh, she's so interesting. And I went down this rabbit hole, and so then I started to follow them. Yeah. And yeah, I saw the books coming out in August, right? Yeah. Yeah. Precisely. Yeah.

Rob Franklin: 36:36

It's, it's really beautiful. I mean, it, it reminds me a ton of. Of Didion's writing about the South.

Brett Benner: 36:41

Mm.

Rob Franklin: 36:42

Um, but it's this kind of, you know, Alexis is a, is a reporter for the New Yorker, um, and like has largely written about conflict regions in, in Sub-Saharan Africa., And then this is, I mean, it's a much more personal piece of writing than I've, I've. Really seen from, from them. Like, um, yeah, it, it's a mix of the kind of history of Alabama and like the history of their family. Um, and it's, you know, very sumptuously written and, and I'm, I'm really enjoying that.

Brett Benner: 37:14

Wow. Okay. Now I have to get it for sure.'cause I, I literally, I looked it up and I wrote it down and I, so I was like, okay, that's awesome. Well, Rob, this was fantastic. You're great and your book is fantastic. Please everyone go get it. By independent if you can. Do you know who's doing your audio?

Rob Franklin: 37:32

Yeah, it's Justice Smith. Who did you see? Oh, I saw the TV glow. Oh my god. Oh my God. He's fantastic.

Brett Benner: 37:38

I'm obsessed with Justice Smith. I'm obsessed with him.

Rob Franklin: 37:41

It was totally kismet because I had seen that movie like the week before. They sent me the options for the audio book and like, otherwise I wouldn't have really known, I hadn't really seen his work otherwise. But I loved that movie and I loved that performance and like as soon as I saw the movie. But I had started to think about him for the O character. Yeah. If like an adaptation ever were to get made. Yeah. Um. And then he was on the list for potential audiobook readers. And I, I immediately was like, that's,

Brett Benner: 38:14

oh my God, I love that so much. And I can't wait tell my business partner because she's obsessed with him. But also, do you remember there was a really short-lived, HBO Max? Well, it was on, was it just HBO then series? I think it was called Generation. Generation.

Rob Franklin: 38:26

Yeah. I watched, I watched some of that and they, and Justice is also great on that. Yeah,

Brett Benner: 38:30

I'm, he was so riveting and he's just beautiful, first of all. Yeah. I mean, he's just. Stunning. But he's also so incredibly talented. But oh my God, now I have to hear it.'cause I just think he's. He's just next level talented, so that's fantastic.

Rob Franklin: 38:46

Well, yeah, the sample's up on Spotify, so listen to it. Okay. No, no, totally,

Brett Benner: 38:51

totally. Well, again, thank you for being here. I'm really excited for you.

Rob Franklin: 38:55

You so much for having me.

Brett Benner: 38:56

Thank you again, Rob, and if you liked this conversation and other conversations I've had as well, please consider liking and subscribing to the podcast. And if you have the time, what would really be helpful is if you could give me five stars and perhaps a review. All of those things help make the podcast more visible to other people so it can continue to expand. I'd really appreciate it. I will see you all next week with another two episodes for my double feature, June, and I'll be back with Jess Walters for his new book. So Far Gone. Thanks everybody.