Behind The Stack

Jonathan Park-Ramage, It's Not The End Of The World

• Brett Benner • Season 2 • Episode 41

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In this episode Brett sits down with author Jonathan Parks-Ramage for his novel, "It's Not The End of he World". They discuss the incident that inspired this, children in the story and in life, and the central question he asked himself while writing the book.

Jonathan's website:
https://www.jonathan-p-r.com

Jonathan's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/jprampage/

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Brett Benner:

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner, and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, where today I am sitting down with author Jonathan Parks Ramage for his wild new book. It's Not the End of the World. A little bit about Jonathan. Jonathan Parks Ramage. is a novelist, playwright, screenwriter, and journalist, his critically acclaimed debut novel. Yes, daddy was named one of the best queer books of 2021 by Entertainment Weekly, NBC News, the Advocate, Lambda Literary Bustle, good Reads, and More. He lives in Los Angeles. Please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I am so happy to have Jonathan Parks Ramage here today for his new book. It's not the end of the world, which is out this week. Like I said to you the other day, there is so much to unpack with this book, but congratulations. Also, I wanna say to you happy pride because when this is airing this will be the first week of pride. So, I feel like we have to grab hold of these little positive moments wherever we can right now.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Well, we still have a pride month.

Brett Benner:

Oh my God, that's a hundred percent.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes. Yes. So yes, we're holding, we're clinging. We're clinging to pride.

Brett Benner:

Desperately, desperately, desperately. Also, congratulations on your drama desk. Nom for Outstanding book of a Musical for Big Gay Wedding. That's so exciting. And so incredible. Has that just been the best experience?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

It has? Yes. I'm flying to New York tomorrow. I had to go to the drama desks. Yeah, it's been great. It's been so lovely to see. We've gotten kind of so many nominations this theater season. Yeah. We're off Broadway, so we weren't up for the Tonys, but pretty much every other award committee has nominated us. We won a couple of Lucille LTELs. It's been really nice to see the big gauge Embo have, its like little life outside. The initial run. So yeah, it just feels nice to have the theater community kind of rallying around us.

Brett Benner:

had you, had you done theater stuff before? How did you, how did that even come about?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Well, I actually, I, went to college for the theater, and I, which is where. This college called CCM Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music. Okay. It's like one of the top musical theater conservatories. But if you don't know musical theater, you're like, why the hell did you go to school in Cincinnati? Which would be a great question to ask. Do not recommend it. I mean, there's also lovely stuff about Cincinnati. It's changed a lot since I've left, but I love theater. I moved to New York. I quickly decided that theater was. I did not wanna be an actor. Um,'cause I just did not have the passion. I did a really kind of janky regional production of Beauty and the Beast and I was like, I do not love this enough to continue doing Rank Dinky, rank Regional Productions of Beauty and the Beast, while I wait for my ship to come in. So I, and it also wasn't creative enough for me, but, but doing this musical, I mean, it's, it's with people I went, I. Marle Mendell. I went to college with one of my best friends from college, starred in it, also co-wrote the music. Philip Redmond, who co-wrote the music, also went to college with, and our director I went to college with. Wow. So it was like kind of this like, almost like homecoming to like theater in a really amazing way. And I, I had written it as a screenplay, initially with Marla, my friend from college. And we sold it to Paramount with Margo Robbie's production company. But then Marla did this, other off-Broadway show called Technique, which is become a big hit and there's lots of international productions. And then, Margo Robbie went to see her in that and then loved it and was like, what are you working on? She's like, well, actually, we're. Reinventing this script that we wrote, uh, and sold with you as a movie to be a stage musical. And then we got real Broadway producers on board, so it became kind of like snowballed from there. So it was kind of like, this thing that was like many years in the making, I guess. Um, that's amazing though. Back to my theater roots. Yeah.

Brett Benner:

Wait, where did you grow up?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

I grew up in. Massachusetts Massa. A very small town called Whitesville, Massachusetts. And, but then I went to a boarding school for the performing arts and my family moved to Berkeley, California. But I stayed in Natick, Massachusetts for all of high school.'cause it was a boarding school for the performing arts. It was like gay sleepaway camp. I was,

Brett Benner:

oh my god, that sounds amazing. It's like nine months of summer stock. And then how did you transition into writing? I mean, in the back of your head, did you always think, oh, I'd like to do this, or was that always part of you?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yeah, it was always part of me going to conservatory for being an actor. It kind of, um, I. I kind of put it aside for a little bit, but in high school I was writing a lot and I always was very creative. Um, but yeah, I had kind of just like gay mania for becoming an actor for a period and conservatory. Just really, I just kind of like doubled down on that. But then once I got out of school. And moved to New York. I was also always kind of writing screenplays scripts with Marla. Even as she was doing, she did a star in many Broadway shows, but, but we were always kind of writing together in New York. Nothing was really taking off. And then I moved out to LA and that's when I really. Really went for it. I mean, I started working as a freelance writer, and started out doing personal essays and from there kind of, Elbowed my way into journalism and did kind of freelance, journalism, wrote for a bunch of different publications and kind of learned how to write by just writing online.

Brett Benner:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

And getting in touch with it that way again, so that, that was really when I, I, I started writing. Nonfiction. And then I was still writing scripts and screenplays, selling things. Nothing that ever got made, which is always frustrating and kind of the troll of, of working in Hollywood. And then finally I was like, I, I'd been doing much more like kind of long form hybrid reported pieces, like personal slash reported, like, kind of like Joan Didion style, but like we're talking like 8,010, like long, long form pieces. And publishing those. And, and I just, I was like, I wanna write a novel, which is a crazy thing to say to yourself. And I think when you first decide that you wanna do it takes a lot of courage to be like, yes, I'm actually gonna write a full blown novel and I'm gonna stick with it and just pray that someone abides it and likes it. And, so it took, it took a while for the first one, but I also got, there's this writer's retreat called Breadloaf, which is, yeah, the literary, community publishing industry kind of descends on this gorgeous Vermont campus. I did breadloaf two summers in a row, and that kind of helped me start to navigate and have ideas about the, the publishing industry. It was also just like a beautiful creative community. A fun summer, and then from there I found an. Sold my book, my first book yesterday.

Brett Benner:

Now? Did you begin to write. Yes, daddy, while you were in that retreat, is that where it started for you?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

That's where I first workshopped it. I'd been writing it before and then I used pages from that book to submit to Breadloaf and I got accepted to Breadloaf. And over the two summers, I did two consecutive summers. And so, yes, those two consecutive summers I, workshopped, excerpts from Yes Daddy, there.

Brett Benner:

And yes, daddy, it's such a great book as well. Loved it about a, a young man who gets. Involved in quite a toxic relationship. Yes. For those who haven't read it yet,

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

the older playwrights see the theater comes in, um, the theater

Brett Benner:

comes in and also power. And there's actually quite a few themes that, bleed over into this book as well. But Okay. For our, for our viewers and for our listeners, do you have kind of a, an elevator pitch for it's not the end of the world?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes. If I saw you in an elevator, I'd say this about my book. It's not The end of the World follows. A wealthy gay couple in the year 2044 in Los Angeles, and this, wealthy gay couple refused to cancel their baby shower even as a potentially apocalyptic event. Sweeps through Los Angeles in the first chunk of the book, follows one member of the couple as he's kind of on a Mrs. D. From hell journey, picking up things for the party, getting ready, but it goes horribly awry because again, there is this kind of awful event that is ravaging Los Angeles.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. And it's set in the, not, too far future.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes. 2044. And it's not, the dystopia depicted in 2044 is not the result of some crazy civilization altering. It's not some wild, crazy world. It's a very grounded, I would say, projection of where we could be in the year 2044 based on where we are now, which to me is personally, you know, much more terrifying than aliens coming in. And

Brett Benner:

yeah, you know, I would never look at, I, I don't look at this book and say, oh, it's speculative, it's more prescient to me than anything else. And I, I literally was like, okay. So he's also a soothsayer. It's interesting. First of all, you referenced Greg Iraqi. I. In the book. And it's funny because nowhere, but also now apocalypse, that series he did came to mind and conservative like the absurdity of the situation and what these people are doing and kind of that like balls to the wall. It's so nuts. But also, two of the things that I, I was thinking of is that Netflix movie don't Look up. And also in 2023, Stephen Markley wrote this book called The Deluge about basically, I dunno if you read it about. The end of the world and how it comes to be. And it's written as climate fiction, but like this, there's nothing that seems so absurd, especially in our current moment that this book is touching on. I think what you do and do it so well is there is a heavy satire in the book and there's things that seem absurdist and certainly. This, uh, need that Mason, your central character has for normalcy, uh, can be absurd. But what is actually going on around these characters? I don't think is absurd at all.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes, yes. Well, that, I love hearing that.'cause that is kind of the goal is that I'm, I'm kind of skewing, there is an element of satire. There is a heightened element. I love the Gregor Act. You reference, I mean, he's a huge influence on me for sure. I loved now apocalypse. But there's also a groundedness as well that you're talking about in terms of like the political milieu, the climate milieu, and, yeah, I, I, I wanted to. Kind of achieve that balance and kind of toe the line. And to your point, Mason has this kind of desire for quote unquote normalcy. Mm-hmm. And I think mirrors a lot of people's, I mean, is a very unsympathetic character, but I think, I think his desire for normalcy is relatable, especially for what all of us are going through. Now. I read this, Article in, was it The Atlantic, about this phrase called Hypernormalization, which basically describes the, the effect of living through intense, kind of horrific. Like social change essentially. Like it happened, you know, in Russia with Putin coming in and the author argues that it's kind of happening now as all these norms are kind of busted and we're sitting in our houses and staring at our phones and still going about our lives. We're not going about our lives if we're affected by this. But having to kind of. Having to normalize what is not normal can be a very, it's like a intense dissonance to hold. It is for me. Um, you know, and it's like very odd and I, I, I, and I think it's very insidious, so I, I think also that's part of the depiction of Mason Mesa and kind of pushing that. Experiencing something like that, but also desperately kind of cling to his privilege in which ultimately is.

Brett Benner:

When did you start writing this? Like, was there a particular incident that said, oh my God, or was there something that started to make you think of the impetus of what this is? Or what you wanted to write?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes. I mean, it was, was the pandemic, I mean, it was 2020 I, I remember it was like right at the beginning of lockdown when everyone was still kind of like, and there was a fire in Los Angeles. I forget the name of it. It, it was by the Getty. I think I was living in Los Hollywood at the time. And, you know, during the pandemic, my only source of sanity was going for walks around my literal block because I was going absolutely fucking nuts. But I would call them my sanity walks and you know, I would just go on a walk, just go outside of my goddamn house. Um, but then when the fires happened. The air quality became so toxic'cause we were close enough where the air quality was awful and it was like all of a sudden I was downloading an app that was telling me the air quality every day because it was so toxic and literally ash was just floating in the air. Yeah. and all of a sudden my sanity walks, I couldn't go on them anymore because the air quality was so toxic. And so I went insane and I started writing this book, and I think it was, I think it was just a, a, a truly just a product of my own anxiety. And I think a lot of my book, I mean writing books for me is, um. Therapeutic. So is it? Yeah. It's therapeutic and it's, it's a way for me to work through what I am working through in my, in my kind of own brain, um, and putting it down on the page. So I think that was. A large impetus. I was actually writing a different book, a different novel completely. I had gotten, I was doing a ton of research and getting into it and it just, all of a sudden it just like, it was like, did not feel urgent to me and this kind of just swooped in and was like. This is urgent. This is what you need to write. Um, and so that's kind of what I went and started

Brett Benner:

Did it always begin with Mason? There's a central couple Mason and, and, uh, and, and Janho. Is it Janho or Yoho?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes.

Brett Benner:

Did it always begin with them?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes, they were always there. I mean, the early, the first stages of writing this, it was kind of like, it's a, it's a more amorphous thing, but yes, they were always a central couple. Yes. But it's been through many iterations, but yes. Yeah, and so this is, I'm so curious, wealthy gay couple who are kind of in the culture industries.

Brett Benner:

And so Mike, then my question is, as, as a writer, I'm so curious about process, especially with this, because the book does really work as it, it's two, big sections. Did you outline everything very specifically with these points? I'm also curious because there is so much that you're tackling in this politically, um, socially, all of these different aspects. So I kept thinking I. How did he uncover all this? How did he think of these specific things just in terms of governmental programs or what was being implemented? Because it's also so terrifying to me because so much of even what you're speaking about in this book, knowing you wrote it a while ago and seeing what's happening and coming to fruition now, did you rewrite as things begin to be become, because even now, like look. This administration has only been in office for for six months, project 2025, and so much of what that implementation is happening has just been getting underway. Of course, we knew about it previously, but. Certainly, I don't think you knew about so much of it. Maybe you did when you were writing this, or did you find out that you were just kept

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

one of the co-authors of project 2025. That's the,

Brett Benner:

that's good you, here's where it gets revealed. Right, exactly. Could you imagine, I mean, big shocker.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Oh, no. Honestly, it's just, I did a lot of research, people don't really think of new ideas in terms of how to oppress people. History constantly repeats itself. So for example, in the book there's something called the anti-American Speech Committee, which is this like McCarthy. Government program where they prosecute artists for, uh, creating anti-American work. And you just go back in history and you have McCarthy and you have, you know, a government that was, hell bent on censorship. And so it didn't feel like a big leap. So I would say everything imagined in the book is something also kind of like, did the Margaret Atwood rule of like, like everything imagined in the book is a form of something that's happened in the past, essentially. Sure. And again, recreated for the future. But I mean, if you look at kind of the evangelical movement, these are things that they've been plotting not just since, you know, project 2025, but since the beginning dawn of Man. Yeah, I know about the dawn of man, but certainly, um. For decades in American politics. And so I, I think that it, it it, that's where all the kind of projections came from. And again, a lot of research into the fbi. I, how FBI has kind of targeted, you know, queer people, black people,, any sort of group that is, aimed at. Protesting kind of the impression from the state in any way. So, I don't know. There's a lot, there's a lot in there, but it was, it was, it was research. I mean the book to answer also another question about process, like it was more Stephen Markley the Daily, is that his name? Sorry, Stephen Markley. Yeah, Stephen Markley. Yeah.

Brett Benner:

Yeah.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

The Daily, it was much, the first draft of this was that length. Um, okay. Wow.

Brett Benner:

Yeah.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

It was giving like 500 plus pages, but what ended up getting sucked out and. Steven doesn't quite suck it out, but I mean, God bless whatever you wanna write about, but there was a lot of. Research on the page. Do you know if that makes sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I did all this research, I'm gonna throw all this detail at you to really try to like build out this world. And then what I found is that people don't wanna read an essay about climate change in a novel. And all the work that I did kind of is steeped into the book and it's actually like trust that and less is more. It's like if I'm reading an essay about climate change in the middle of a book. There was, there was a heavy editorial period with my agent before he went out with it. That was like sucking out all that

Brett Benner:

were DOGEing I feel like in terms of the narrative and why it works for this novel is because you're in a moment that feels present, right? Even though the date might be future. So much of it feels like what, you know, you're talking about for anyone who lives in Los Angeles, landmarks, roads, streets, places, things that people are going to make and easily recognized. So, and then like there's a few times like I had to look up and be like. Okay, this is future, but it's not, again, not too far future, which is what's crazy. I wanted to read this, something like, based on what you were just talking about, that I marked, and I love this. So much and it felt, it feels again very much. Now it's his mason found it difficult to hold on to hope He'd watched American democracy crumble over the course of his adolescence. By the time he reached his senior year at risd, he'd already witnessed years of antiqueer and anti-trans legislation. He'd witnessed racist gerrymandering become increasingly aggressive. He'd witnessed local election boards seized by conservative activists successfully overturned legitimate election results. He'd witnessed the. Witnessed feckless Democrats clinging to power by making empty promises to take action. And he'd watched as evangelicals created the Christo fascist utopia of their white supremacist dreams. And that was literally like for me, I was like, and there it is. And that I was like, and here we are in this moment. We are all Mason.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes. I mean, again, it's not far fetched. It's not like I had to sit there dreaming this up. I mean, it's all kind of happening right now. I mean, I, I kind of, I modeled a little bit. American, like kind of the, the very grounded dystopia that America is after Russia. I mean, it's not exactly the same, but, but in terms of what we're seeing feels familiar in that Russia is a quote unquote democracy where people just happens to get elected. And it's actually just run by. A bunch of oligarchs and rich thugs who jockey for influence and power and anyone who resists in a public way, um, is made an example of it. I was just curious about. Again, Russia as an example of where we could potentially be headed in terms of our own quote unquote democracy. And that this illusion of democracy still exists, but there's, and there is like a quote unquote opposition party, but it's not real and it's all just people clinging to power and not really opposing. But when someone really does oppose Putin, it is. Quashed.

Brett Benner:

The other thing I do love that you do is there's these great little references. The only one I'm going to ruin, not even ruin, it's not even a spoiler, because you drop them just almost like, um, M M treats, which is Governor, governor Chris Pratt. That made me laugh. So. Loud. I had to, I had to stop and be like, wait, what? And, and that is like a hallmark of, of you. It's almost like just dropping these things and, and they're so quick. You'd almost miss it. There's also a great reveal in the end, which I'm not gonna give away, which I should have seen coming of a character, which I thought was so brilliant. To that. And again, not speaking of the character or who it is, did you ever have a moment or was anyone on your team, like, are you sure you wanna do this? Are you sure you want to use this actual person in this capacity?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes. fiction books don't usually get a legal edit. Um, nonfiction. Usually always does, certainly memoirs do. But, but there was, with a character, there's a, again, a twist at the end, which we will not spoil, but, a real life person. Enters the narrative in this way, um, which is like pretty shady and so brilliant. It's brilliant. Oh, thank you. But yes, At some point in the production process, they were like, Hmm, we're gonna send this to legal'cause are you sure you want to actually name this person and are you accountable? And I was like, well, it's a novel. Like I, I think we're gonna be fine. And ultimately it was decided, yes, it would be fine. It was a novel. There's a disclaimer at the top and like every character is fictional. Are those real life characters are used Fictionally or not? You know? So I think I. Everything's gonna be fine. But weirdly, I mean, I actually don't think that this person who is kind of one of our current Arch villians would actually object to the way they are depicted in the book because I think the character embodies, their political views and their ethos and it just projects that into the future. So I actually don't think they would. Protest their depiction. I, I think if they were honest with themselves, they would view it as honest. Sure, which is also me, Al also my argument to the lawyers, I was like, I don't think, I don't think he would actually, uh, contest anything that he said here. And also I did actually have to come up with. Articles, quotes from him. That point towards everything that is, is kind of projected about him in the future is based on things he has said, people he supports and views, he actually possesses, basically I did have to do a little research, extra research and say, okay. These are all the things that I knew he believed in, and sure enough he does, and here they are. Interesting. I don't think he would object.

Brett Benner:

If you suddenly disappear, we might know where to look. But that's all I'm saying. I don't, I don't know what happened. He just went out for a, a walk to clear his head around the block.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

He was like, I wanna name some names, honey, and throw some shade.

Brett Benner:

No. One of your, one of the characters who becomes very central in the second half of the book, Gabriel. He's a young kid who is kind of caught up in all of this and becomes kind of integral as the book continues on. I'm just so curious, I was so curious reading this because one of the things I think you do in both of your books are you highlight in terms of both vulnerabilities of people, um, and. Power and corruption. Your, both your books kind of deal with the trappings and the seduction to power and success and the potential downfall because of it. But also it became to me,, kind of heartfelt because of this child you put in the midst of all this. Can you talk about him for a bit and what your mindset was and bringing him into it?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes, yes. Them. Them. Yes. Sorry. Them. Thank you

Brett Benner:

for Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

No, it's okay. I mean, I think that's part of, I think that's another part that I wanted to include intentionally is, is just a couple that DEC or, or not even a couple, a group of people that decide to. Raise their child in a gender neutral way. Yes. Just'cause I thought that was like an interesting, And, and very

Brett Benner:

now and

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

very la Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, in thinking about if, to me it just kind of,'cause as you mentioned, this happens in the second half of the book. There's kind of this huge twist. And then the narrative kind of turns on its head. And then we have a child, narrator, narrator as kind of one of the perspectives, And to me it felt like essential in a book about the future, in a book, about having children to have a child's perspective of their surroundings and the world around them. It felt like there was an innocence there that could be valuable to view the world through, through their eyes. And to see how they view. Again, not to give too much away, but you know, there, there is in the second half of the book, a group of people trying to radically rethink the way we structure society and live in the world. And so to have that viewed through a child's lens, I thought would be very interesting. Someone who has yet to adopt traditional. Normative social scripts and it felt like just a way, again, essential in a book about the future and about, and a book about children to then include the, the perspective of a child, because I also feel like children's dignity and self-determination is often also ignored. It felt, it just, it all of a sudden I, I literally, I kind of finished writing the first half of the book and then this voice just like kind of popped into me and I was like, oh, okay.

Brett Benner:

Um, the old adage, um, be seen and not heard.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes,

Brett Benner:

exactly. Which is

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

not great.

Brett Benner:

Now you've been with your partner Ryan for a while now. Are children ever anything you've ever thought of or wanted or discussed?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Oh yes. I've been with my partner Ryan. Yeah. We've been together for like 10 years. I have zero desire to have any children I, which is so funny'cause I wrote a whole book about it. You're like, Jonathan, was there something you were working through in your mind? we. Don't have a desire. I love, like I, I feel like I, I am the perfect candidate for gay Uncle Dom. Mm-hmm. I have a few children that my girlfriends have that, and I feel like part of the fam, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like John is like embedded in their children's imagination and there is a lot of joy I get from that, but I personally. Oh my gosh. It just seems so stressful. And I feel like also my, I think Ryan and I both have this, for better or for worse. I don't know. View of our work. I don't know. We tend to our work in a way which is like, it feels like there's so much labor that goes into producing the work that we produce. Yeah. Also a writer that, I don't know, we're not, I guess we're just selfish gaze. No, no, no. Like eventually we have to take care of something. He really wants us to get a dog. I was like to get a dog or, or get a plant. Um, yeah, I mean, I have lots of plans and I do, I mean, I care for my friend, like I cook all the time. I have dinner parties. Like I, I love caring for other people. It's just the idea of a child, having a child fills me with, uh, incredible anxiety feels like. Yeah. But

Brett Benner:

I love that you know that again, because it's something else that comes up in the book and I thought about it. I was going through this whole idea of the, like the heteronormative ideas that get thrust onto upon us, and at first it was. I think with gay people, it was when gay marriage was out and like, should you do this and why should you do this? And there was the argument of like, we should absolutely do this because we want to. Or there was the argument too that said, but why do we have to conform and why do we have to subscribe to these kind of archaic ideas just to be a couple? And I think. That's happened with kids as well as, I think, first of all, I think a lot of people did it and it was like the new designer bag. we'll have a kid and, uh, but, so no, I don't think there's, I just think it's certainly, it's, it's not for everybody, but, I'm always just curious by people and the decisions they make in terms of it and in terms of these characters because, the desire for a child or wanting. Or thinking you want that child. Yes. And and what it means. And also like you said earlier, and of course not giving anything away, but a child that's raised in an environment where. They're open to make their own particular decisions and the questions that surround that as to can they make all their own decisions at that point? What do they actually know? How much guidance is actually needed? And, what constitutes a family? What constitutes a parental figure? Who do you go to for those things? I don't know. There's a lot of. Questions that come up in this in a lot of times in a very hilarious and skewering way. I mean,

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

certainly the couple, the gay couple, obviously their motives are, but I, I don't, I don't even know. I mean, I wanted it to feel, I. Their desire to have children. I wanted that to feel genuine and genuinely grounded and rooted in real emotion. And yes, they get, you know, super extensive surrogacy and go all the way over the top. But I think also part of what the book examines is there's this non-fiction book called Full Surrogacy Now. Um, which is by a feminist kind of philosopher, um, named Sophie Lewis. And the argument of the book is. There are some people who are like so anti surrogacy and she argues actually that we need a society that embraces quote unquote full surrogacy where all children are cared for. All human beings are cared for in this way, in that there is more of an embracive community in that anyone can have a child and not just the wealthy, and it's like intersects with like communism, socialism. It's very interesting. Provocative book, but I did want to examine an unconventional queer family. Like kind of how you're talking about and, and how potentially like family and parenting could look different for Yeah. Queer people. If, if we, if we don't adhere to kind of those, those social. Script. And marriage is also something, Ryan, I, it's so funny, I have a ring. We've got like engaged at one point and then we like met with a wedding planner like naively and we were like, oh, we wanna get married in Provincetown. Like, and like I was like, well, how much do you think you're spending? And we were like, well.$20,000 Sounds good. And he was just like, oh, like literally gasped was horrified. That seemed like even 20,000. He like a lot of money to spend on a party and he was just like, like talking about and then. Once we kind of started telling people that we were engaged, you just enter this hurricane of heterosexual projections. Like,

Brett Benner:

yeah,

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

like my mother who's like a, died in the wool like, like second generation feminist, um, all of a sudden just became like obsessed with marriage and like obsessed with my wedding. And like, I don't know, I was just like, wait, what? Who, why are all these people turning into crazy? And I just think that these scripts are just so deeply invested. So we decided actually not to get married. It was like, it's too expensive. And also it was like too much drama and we've been together for 10 years. I mean, I think the main, yeah, reason in many cases to get married is, is, is you know, to merge your assets in the eyes of the state. But at the same time, I also think I. It's beautiful to get married, and I go to weddings and I cry all the time. I don't know. So it's like also like I'm not out here just being like, oh, I'm such a queer radical. Like, and I think that's also a tension I wanted to capture in the book is like, hmm, there are these scripts and I do wanna resist'em. Yet at the same time, sometimes the script works and feels good. Sure. So I think that it's, that's also something that's constantly in a state of dissonance within me.

Brett Benner:

We didn't get married until we had kids, and it wasn't until our kids were even old enough and we really did it for the kids because as we got into stuff, and it was a weird thing with traveling suddenly became a thing, and so we were like. We need to do this.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

But yeah.'cause again, there are benefits in being rendered legible by the state, especially as parents, which are probably essential when you're caring for other human

Brett Benner:

beings. Yeah. And I remember we had had the kids, we were, they were young and I remember we were traveling, this is before, um, gay marriage was a national thing and we were traveling to Canada. And I remember going through. Customs. And it was the first time that anything like this had happened. And you know, you fill out the form, the declaration form, and you go up to the customs person. And so we filled out one form and Chip, my husband had gone up first and then he said, where's yours? And I said, oh. We were like, oh, we're together. And these are, you know, we're all together. And I remember this, he was so curt and he said, your state may recognize you, but we don't federally go out and fill out another form. And so I went back and kind of filled out the form and they were waiting, you know, they were shuffled through. They couldn't wait on the other side. They had to keep moving. And my son was starting to cry. And so it was the first time I felt this sense of, I don't know what it is, betrayal. A sense of like, wow, something failed. Yeah. And so, but anyway, so that's why we did it, but.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Yes. And then I mean, it, it's, it, it, and that makes obviously so much sense. Again, it's like for rights, it's almost like the state creates a problem that can only be solved through subscription to the state, but then even then you're subjected to correct. Correct.

Brett Benner:

Yes. Which is only being amp amped up so much more for everyone. So in, in line with that, and you know, I, I will say that as much as there's parts of this book that like, first of all, people are gonna laugh their ass off and, but there are also, I think, again, going to find so much that's horrifyingly identifiable. The book doesn't end, it's not a downer. And it, I think you end it on a very kind of hopeful note. So, but my question for you is. Do you have hope?

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

Oh my God. Um, I think that is what I was asking myself. Probably the central question I was asking myself while, while writing this book, I think that, I think that I was searching for hope, I think in writing this, and I found it. I read a lot on anarchism, um, and anarchy kind of gets a bad and like wrong rep, um, as being like, yeah, just like, fuck everything anarchy. I feel like there's this like thing of like, it's like it's total chaos, but in the kind of traditional like political sense the word. It's a great book by Noam Tomsky called on anarchism, which is like a, this. Also a black anarchist tradition, um, that you can read about a lot that I did a lot of research into, but it's actually anarchism is organization. It's basically creating community that is laterally organized, that are smaller, that are localized, that tend to everyone's needs, and it rejects kind of like a hierarch state. And I. You know, obviously full anarchy in the United States is, is unrealistic at this point, but, but I think there are ways to create community and care for the people directly in your circles, and to also make efforts to expand your circles to include people or support people who may be experiencing violence or discrimination. Um. You know, as we move into the future that, but I think the answer is and has always been regardless of horrors that people have lived through, is how do we create spaces for each other? How do we create communities that support each other, that exist outside of kind of the oppression of the state? How do we resist by simply. Forming communities where we support each other in the ways that the state can't. I think that's, it's like as the state strips away, protections, how do we protect each other? Right. So I think that actually gave me a lot of hope in reading about anarchism, anarchist communities that have existed throughout time. Um, and also the realization that like. Many communities, black communities, queer communities, trans communities, I mean, have lived through horrific oppression. And I think it's easy for, you know, me as a white gay man who was born in 1984. And yes, I went through also my own discrimination, et cetera, but there are people who have lived through so much worse in America, um, that the suppression is nothing new. Um, and. Those people looking to our history to see how black community, queer community, trans community, the disabled community have, have come together to kind of form community that exists outside of the state and outside of oppression. And as we go back to what feels like the 1950s. Look at how people formed community and supported each other, um, in those more oppressive eras. So I think for me that was it is, is finding hope in the research and realizing that throughout history, throughout capitalism, oppression is just goes hand in hand. Um, and it does feel like we're moving towards a global. Collapse in a way which is unique perhaps. Um, uh, there are just now a bunch of billionaires that are basically betting against the earth, and humanity who are kind of running things. But even still that, I think all we have is each other, and I think that's kind of the hope I found at.

Brett Benner:

I'm gonna stop there because honestly, that, that was, that was fantastic. And I, and I'm with you a hundred percent. And, uh. Yeah, I don't know. I, I, I, I no notes off to wardrobe. Jonathan, you are delightful.

Jonathan Parks-Ramage:

You are delightful.

Brett Benner:

You guys, you have to get the book. It's not the end of the world. Also, you can go to Jonathan's Instagram page. He'll have his tour schedule up as well, so you could see him in person if you can by independent. But get the book. It's, it's, it's really great and congratulations on a terrific novel. Um, I'm really, really, really excited for you. It's a. Thank you again, Jonathan. If you enjoyed this conversation and other conversations that I've been having, please consider liking and subscribing, and what I would really appreciate is if you have the time and could leave a review, it's something that really helps podcasts like this get highlighted on the different platforms. In the meantime, I'll see you all next week with another episode of Behind the Stack. Thanks everybody.