Lucas Shaeffer, The Slip

In this episode Brett sits down with Lucas Shaeffer to discuss his debut novel,'The Slip'. They talk about the wide range of characters inhabiting the story's boxing gym, the town of Austin, the many facets of identity, and a possible fascination with clowns. 

Lucas Shaeffer's website:

https://www.lucasschaefer.com

Lucas' instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/lucaseschaefer/

If you like what you're hearing on this podcast please subscribe so you never miss an episode!

Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack

Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack

Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack

Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com

Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack. It is the beginning of what I'm calling a double feature June here on Behind the Stack where all month long I will be having two guests per week. I couldn't cut people. I was trying to. Whittled down my schedule, and I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna go for it. And so I have a packed schedule this month with a lot of great interviews and some fantastic books that you could pack up for the summer, including this one today. But before we get into that, I wanted to talk about a couple new books that are also coming out today as well, which sound particularly interesting to me. The First is a book that's gonna be all over the place this summer, which is Taylor Jenkins Reed Atmosphere about a female astronaut. It looks really good. I think it's gonna be a really big book and I've just reading like Goodreads reviews people really seem to love this one. So there's that. Also How To Lose Your Mother, A Daughter's Memoir by Molly Jong Fast. Molly Jong Fast is the daughter of Erica Jong, and this is her story about how she dealt with her mother's encroaching dementia. Then. Debut author Nini Berndt there are reasons for this, which I'm reading right now. Claire Masud says It's wonderfully, makes the strange familiar and the familiar strange. It's truly memorable. It's a really interesting book, not very long about, a woman who becomes obsessed with her brother's girlfriend and her brother has died and she moves into an apartment across from. her brother's girlfriend and what happens? it's really interesting. It's really good writing. It's one of those things that immediately pulls you in and I'm interested to see where it goes. So there's that. Another book that's been getting great pre-publication reviews, the listeners by Maggie Steifvader Maggie, Steifvader has primarily been a young adult, fantasy, romance, or romantic writer. This is her first adult book, and this looks really good. Set in a luxury hotel in West Virginia in 1942., That ends up having to house Nazis during the war. So there's that. Then Tramps like us by Joe Westmoreland. This is actually a reissue by M-C-D-F-S-G following a young gay man crisscrossing the 1970s and eighties America and search of salvation. I think this looks really interesting. And then the last book I wanna mention is also going to be my guest later this week on the show. The book is, it's Not The End of the World by Jonathan Parks Ramage. It is a crazy apocalyptic story about two men who are determined to get their baby shower off the ground, even though the end of the world seems imminent. So come back for that later this week. Now onto today's guest. I was really happy to have Lucas Schafer and his debut novel, the Slip On Today. For readers of Jonathan Franzen and Nathan Hill comes a haymaker of an American novel about a missing teenage boy cases of fluid and mistaken identity, and the transformative power of boxing. A little bit about Lucas Lucas's work has appeared in one story, the Baffler Slate and other publications. He holds an MFA from the New Writers Project at UT Austin And lives with his family in Austin. So please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I'm thrilled to have Lucas Schaefer here today for his debut novel, the Slip. You could tell that I, I marked this thing all up. I have to tell you, Lucas, whenever I do one of these interviews, I usually try to, to read it, you know, well enough in advance to sit and ponder and all of the things. But for whatever reason, I really did not want this book to end, and I kept taking my time through it. And so I, I literally finished the last 40 pages last night, and. Oh my God, I was so blown away and I almost, I almost reached out to you last night but I was like, you're gonna talk to him in the morning, like, calm down. I. It is so, phenomenal. You're the editor's pick, I have it right here in Kirks reviews, with starred you, you're being compared to Franzen and Roth and Irving and Nathan Hill, and all of these are, are such, apt comparisons. So congratulations. Not only does it just a, not even debut. It's just a phenomenal book, so congratulations.

Lucas Schaeffer: 4:44

Thank you so much. That was a very nice introduction.

Brett Benner: 4:47

so for our listeners Lucas, is the, the proud owner of a baby boy. He's about six months into fatherhood. So how is it going for you guys?

Lucas Schaeffer: 4:58

Oh my God. It is truly an adventure. I know that, I know everyone says you'll never be prepared, but we truly we're not prepared. But it's great. You know, it's every day there's new where we, we today was our first day with a sippy cup with water. Oh wow. Yes. There wasn't any, any drinking of the water. But there is hammering the table with the cup and we've moved to some solid food. We're into the Turkey puree. So we're, we're good. We're, yeah. Life is, life is good. And, and father, well, maybe not father land, but

Brett Benner: 5:29

Are you gonna be the, the kind of parents that, do all the food yourself and puree all the vegetables? Or are you just going to be to jarred food?

Lucas Schaeffer: 5:36

We're already not those parents. I, I think we aspire. We aspire there. The, in fact, downstairs there's just arrived a like black and decker blender. Because we had our blender died, you know, years ago and was never, was never replaced. And, so I think we, we will eventually, aspire to be making our own baby food, but for now we're in a Gerber situation. Who seems to be loving it? Oh yeah, as far as I can tell.

Brett Benner: 6:07

Alright, so wait, backing up with you a second. You grew up in Newton, mass?

Lucas Schaeffer: 6:11

I did.

Brett Benner: 6:11

Okay. And were you an only child?

Lucas Schaeffer: 6:14

I was not. I have a younger brother who's, a, a teacher in Massachusetts.

Brett Benner: 6:18

Okay. And did you always wanna write?

Lucas Schaeffer: 6:22

I did, but I wasn't always writing. I, I mean, I was aspired to, to do that. And then I, uh, I moved to Austin in 2006 when I was 24, and then I met my now husband Greg in 2011. Okay. And when I met him, I was, teaching seventh grade and he was at the Mitchner Center in the Graduate Creative Writing program at ut. And you know, we dated for a, a year or so, and I thought, well, he's doing this. I want to, I wanna do that. He's having more fun than I'm having. So then I, I started writing more seriously and ultimately applied to graduate school and went to the new writers project at ut, and the rest is, is history. But I, I was really not right. I'm, I'm now 42. I was not writing, I would say seriously until I was about 30.

Brett Benner: 7:19

And what brought you to Austin initially?

Lucas Schaeffer: 7:22

Kind of nothing. I, Had graduated college and moved to Brooklyn and was living there for a couple years and it just, it felt a little like, um, you know, I love, I love New York, I love living New York, but it felt a little bit like. What I was supposed to do or something. Mm-hmm. Like, it, it just felt very like, I'm from the northeast, I'm living in the northeast, this will be life. And I was just hungry to try something different. And I had a professor from college who had previously lived in Austin, that's where he'd had sort of his formative years, and he said, you should give Austin a try. And I, I knew a couple people here, but I really didn't know anyone. All that well, I had a couple of friends, one friend who as soon as I moved here, immediately went to law school and moved away. So I, I basically didn't know anyone initially and just made this my my city. Wow.

Brett Benner: 8:15

Wow. That's really cool. And I wanna get back to Austin itself in a little bit, but, it's funny, the common denominator for so many writers that I've had on this show that comes up over and over and over again, which I love because he's one of my favorite writers, is Alexander Chi. Mm. And he seems to have to have touched so many of you. In one way or another. I then when I saw. That, you know, he was helpful to you as well. I was like, wow, this guy is like, he's everywhere with everyone and I love it.

Lucas Schaeffer: 8:48

He, yeah, I mean, he was very instrumental in this book, in that when you read the first chapter of this book, that was, something I, I started in his workshop in a very different form and. He was, he, he pushed me in a more novelistic direction. Mm. You know, I think when you're starting graduate school, short stories are kind of the currency because you're in workshop and they're short enough to, you know, be able to, to workshop and et cetera, et cetera. But I, I really am, am more of a, a long form writer, naturally, and I think he helped push me in that, in that direction. I. That's awesome. And it's just a great, great teacher. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 9:33

Yeah. Um, okay. So for our audience, do you have an elevator pitch Sure. For the slip?

Lucas Schaeffer: 9:41

Sure. So the slip is about a very hapless teenager named Nathaniel Rothstein, who is from Newton, Massachusetts. Who gets into a fight at school and is suspended, and as punishment is sent to live in Austin, Texas with his uncle for the summer of 1998, his mother is tired of dealing with him and in Austin, his uncle sets him up at a job at a, a volunteer job at a nursing home where he falls under the sway of a very charismatic. Immigrant from Haiti named David Deli, who is the activities director there and is also a former boxer and gets Nathaniel involved in boxing and over the course of this very formative summer. Hapless miserable. Nathaniel transforms, into a much more confident young man, and really takes to boxing. And at the end of the summer, he disappears, never to be seen or heard from again. And the novel follows a very wide cast of characters over about 20 years as we figure out what, what happened that summer and what happened to Nathaniel.

Brett Benner: 10:50

That was great And if you could have heard me trying to explain this to my husband over dinner last night. Mm-hmm. Because I was like, I had gotten, of course, I told you I got to the end and we went to dinner afterwards and I was sitting there and I, and I was like steeped in the book and steeped in those last five pages. And so I was like. I, I'm sorry. I'm gonna tell you about this book in broad strokes, and I have to speak about this because you are the only person that's near me right now. And I found myself going in and I was like, I'm getting more confused as I'm going through. It makes so much sense, but I'm so overwhelmed right now. So that was so crystal clear. First of all. What was the inspiration for this for you? Where did it start?

Lucas Schaeffer: 11:32

So, I would say the inspiration for the book started at a, a real boxing gym. In Austin. So when I first moved here in 2006, I really didn't know anyone. Mm-hmm. And I saw an advertisement for a class at a boxing gym, and I was already living in Texas, which seemed very unlike anyone in my family. Not, not how I was, you know, not, not how people conceived of my life. Uh, perhaps. So I thought, well, I'm already in Texas. I might as well do this other thing that seems completely uncharacteristic and. Took this, this boxing class, and I ended up going to this gym for about five years. It's Lord Lord's gym in, in, in Austin for anyone familiar with, with the city. And one of the things that really struck me about the gym was it was a place where there was everybody, race, class, gender. Sexuality. I mean, it was just such a wide cross section of Austin and was such a great introduction for me to Austin. And, you know, the, my, my personal experience at the gym was really, really positive. And I, I worked out there for five or six years and then ended up moving a little bit south and, and stopped going mostly for, for that reason. But. It did present a lot of dramatic possibilities in terms of, you know, so much of American life is segregated racially by class, et cetera, and there are not that many places where people really crossover and meld and are all together. And the gym was one of them. So I thought, this is the place that I can write about. And as a writer, that's, that is my interest. Right? How do we get along across these lines that typically divide us? Is it possible to get along? How do we all live together in this country? Which seems like a question, that's relevant right now and, and is always relevant. Living in America. That was the impetus, just starting with the gym and characters from the gym. And it's funny, you know, now if you read the book, there's basically, there's very little from the gym, the, the real gym that has made it into the book. But I think that's spirit of. Worlds crossing, worlds colliding. The, the tension that that can create and also the opportunity that that can create, uh, is sort of where I started

Brett Benner: 14:12

It's interesting because, when I was thinking about the book last night, to me it feels like, because you have all these characters and the gym is kind of the centerpiece that everything in front of the fulcrum, which everything kind of works out of, it feels almost like an orchestra to me. And each of these characters is a separate instrument in the orchestra. Yeah. And you get these moments of someone being highlighted you this, this is the clarinet and this is the violin, and this is the piano. Until they all kind of come together and you see the whole piece. And that's kind of how I viewed this book, that you are kind of the conductor who's pulling us through all of this with this boxing ring in the center of all of it. And it's so, so beautifully done. And in terms of moving back and forth through time and how things are revealed through other characters, it's just, it's so exceptional. But I was like. God, I wonder if he is a boxing fan. Like that was my first thought. I thought, I wonder if he's early into boxing.

Lucas Schaeffer: 15:10

It's funny because I loved the gym and I loved a boxing workout, and I loved, I. The people, but I'm really not a boxing fan. And, and watching, one of the things I actually learned, I really didn't like was seeing people I knew Box because it's like, ugh, I don't, I don't know if I wanna watch this. I like those guys. Don't hit each other, you know? So. It was not a natural, but I think in a way it was actually the perfect subject for me because I was curious about it and I also didn't know so much about it that I was gonna let kind of the technical aspects of boxing get in the way of the story. Yeah, I think this is a book that is certainly about. Boxing to some extent, but you really need no knowledge of boxing or interest in boxing to, to get into the story. And I don't know, had I been more of a aficionado or a more of a fan of boxing, I, I don't know if I could have written it in the way that I did.

Brett Benner: 16:10

Yeah. It's so interesting because I thought as I was going through it too, uh, I work out at a very small gym here in Los Angeles, but my trainer and I, we've said for years, I don't understand why no one has made a sitcom out of a gym because exactly this. There are so many different types of characters who cross and intersect, and the kind of drama that plays out in a gymnasium or in small gyms. And the interactions. I was like, there's so much richness to pull upon here. So

Lucas Schaeffer: 16:39

it, it's funny, when I first started going to the gym, I mentioned earlier I was teaching and I taught seventh grade at an all girls school. And so it was, you know, my, my 15 I. 12 and 13 year olds. And it was so funny because there was so much more drama at the gym than Yeah. At school with these like middle school girls. I was like, how is this possible that there's like the love affair, all just fraught, um, you know, fraught funny things happening.

Brett Benner: 17:09

Yeah. And probably throwing some testosterone and some hormones and you, you, you amp everything up a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Lucas Schaeffer: 17:18

Absolutely.

Brett Benner: 17:20

How long did it take you to write?

Lucas Schaeffer: 17:25

I've been saying 10 years, but I think it was probably a little longer. Wow. Really? I, I basically, I went to graduate school in, in 2013. And started the project then I'd initially conceived of a linked story collection about different characters at the gym and just over the, over the years, and this is one thing Alex Chi was helpful with and other mentors were helpful with as well. Things got too intertwined. Mm-hmm. I was, you know, it was, I was like. Chafing against the structure I'd created for myself, and I think when I allowed myself to just explode the structure and say, no, no, no. This is a novel and everyone's really intimately linked, but we're still gonna go in all of these different directions. I think that was a big breakthrough for me because I was trying to fit the story into these sort of 20 or 25 page. Short stories and it just didn't work because I, I, I wanted bigger and more You wanted understand and, and so I, I was able to knock down some of those walls and just, and

Brett Benner: 18:33

Some elements of the story were put out as short stories and other publications.

Lucas Schaeffer: 18:37

Yeah, so a lot of the characters in the book, were created in a short story that came out in the magazine, one story, and that story is actually not in the, in the book. Mm-hmm. But it, it is, it, it helped me, We create a lot of these characters. And then there are a few chapters that have appeared individually as short stories or excerpts in a couple of different, different magazines. And the first chapter of the book is Now in the Common, which is a great magazine that's dedicated to exploring place, and the whole first chapter is available online

Brett Benner: 19:10

Did you start with Nathaniel and this was the beginning of the book for you? And if so, I also wondered, did you know the arc when you started? I.

Lucas Schaeffer: 19:20

I did not start with Nathaniel. I, I started with some of the more peripheral gym characters. There's a character in this book named Carlos Ortega, who's sort of this gym, just shit stirrer, if I can say that on your podcast. Yes. He is this. 40-year-old X boxer who's just always in everyone's business. And he's, I think anyone who's gone to a gym is probably familiar with some character like Carla's. And he was just really fun to write and a voice that I quickly understood and, and knew well. Um, so he was one of the, the first characters. And then, you know, a funny thing about. The book is, is when I Reconceived of it, certain characters who hadn't worked in short story format really came to life in the novel. So one of the very first attempts at a story I wrote was with a character who in the book, um, is calling himself X. And in the short story x. Is this young, teenage boy who's having a lot of questions about his gender identity and is just in a very teenage moment when we meet him. And initially I had him coming to the gym in the, in the book, he doesn't really, he's not associated with, with the gym. His entry into the story is through a, a different, avenue, which I'll let readers. Figure out for themselves. Because one of the fun things about this. This book is, it is a little bit like a puzzle. You don't know exactly how everyone connects initially. And that was also true for me as a writer. Like, I didn't know I had this character of XI was like really enjoyed sort of getting to know him, but I hadn't figured out what to do with him in the short story form and then, then in the novel form it, it made sense.

Brett Benner: 21:12

Wow. That is so fascinating. You know, the big overreaching theme of this novel is identity. Yeah. In so many facets. Yeah. Whether it's through race or gender or, sexuality. Can you talk a little bit about that

Lucas Schaeffer: 21:31

yeah. I mean, as a writer, that's definitely the theme that's of the most interest to me, how you know, people of differing identities and multifaceted identities get along or don't with each other. And I think the, the racial aspect was I. just something I was thinking about a lot,, just as a person in the, in the country, you know, as a citizen and as a human being as I was starting this book. And so I wanted to, to really lean in into that. And, you know, Nathaniel, I think it's safe to say, has some problematic. Views about race, but I really wanted to explore those,, and do that with some intention. And so that's sort of how that, the, the, the, the race element came about. And then, you know, there's, I. A lot of thinking about sexuality in the book as well. I think some of that is just from being gay myself, but also, just a, a general fascination with identity and all, it's, it's different forms. And so I slowly sort of built and, and then once the one, the theme kind of built on itself, so one example I'll give you is there's a character in the book who's a fairly minor character named Gloria Ob, who's an older, resident at the nursing home who plays a, a small but very pivotal. Role in the book and I couldn't quite get her character right in the early days. And I realized, okay, we're dealing with this broad theme of identity. We've got this woman who in, in the story is Italian American, but initially when I was writing it, that was very peripheral. Like that was just, you know, her name was Gloria Abruzzi She was obviously. Italian because her name was Gloria Abruzzi And that was that. And then as I went to rewrite and figure her out,, I really started to think about, okay, well what if, you know, she was Italian and her family their heritage was very important to them, but she, for whatever reason, didn't identify as much as Italian. Like, let's play with that a little bit. And so slowly I sort of figured out her character. And that aspect of her identity ends up proving really, really important to the plot and to just understanding who, who she is. So once I kind of went down this road of, okay, I'm interested in identity broadly, it, it kind of helped me build some of these more minor characters into fully, you know, hopefully fully formed people. It was just a lens through which I could kind of enter their, I. Psyches and, and their personalities.

Brett Benner: 24:24

Yeah. And it's an interesting thing because every, almost every character in this book is, is, is searching for something else in regards to identity. And it's just in a fascinating and examination. Speaking specifically of the, of the Nathan of it all, Nathaniel, I'm so curious were you ever with everything about out there about, cultural appropriation were you ever nervous in writing it about what you were tackling?'cause it's big swings and when I started at it, I will say I was all of a sudden like, oh my gosh. But it also makes complete sense for the narrative of what this is.

Lucas Schaeffer: 25:00

I think that was the key for me. I mean, I think this question of, because I'm obviously throughout the book writing a lot of different characters who are not like me. Nathan in some ways is like me in that he's from the town I'm from. And he is white and he's Jewish, but in a lot of other ways. He's, he's not like me. He's, he's straight, he's very shy. He had a miserable high school experience. I I had a fun time in high school, et cetera, et cetera. So, he's probably, you know, he demographically he's a lot closer to me than some of these other characters. I think because I started with the themes and the questions mm-hmm.

Brett Benner: 25:36

And

Lucas Schaeffer: 25:36

knew what I wanted to write about, that then kind of led to creating this very diverse cast. Yeah. I didn't start and say, I wanna be the white guy who writes, you know, about, black people or about people of color. Right. Experience or whatever. Just because you know, I can do that and that's my right. Like that, that was not how this. Transpired. So I think the question, you know, when this issue comes up really isn't, who has the right to write what, because we can obviously all write whatever we want, but like, why, why are you right doing this? Right? And and for me,, the racial tension in the book is so much a part of my interest in the story that it wouldn't have. Work had I not leaned into it. And then the other thing was once I decided to go for it, I really wanted to like do it and explore it. And that meant having Nathaniel have. Views that made me cringe. But were familiar from life, right? Yeah. It meant having him make decisions that are, I think we can agree not he, he doesn't always make good decisions. But then it, it also meant with the character of David, who's his mentor, who has lived in Texas for almost 30 years, is originally from Haiti, and is, is black. It also meant with, with David. Going there with him too and allowing him to be flawed and him to make that decisions. And just thinking about who, who these characters are and how they're moving through the world and staying grounded in that and letting that dictate, what happens in the book. And that was sort of my guiding principle throughout, because I think there's the danger of. With Nathaniel kind of not getting right, his particular racial outlook, I guess you could call it. But then I, I also didn't wanna do the thing. I think sometimes when, and I don't actually have anyone in mind when I say this. I, I just think this is a general issue, but I think sometimes when white writers are writing outside their race. I, I'd say probably, particularly with black characters, there's, there can be a tendency to do the other thing of like, we're gonna make this person so unimpeachable that Yeah. I I will then not be criticized. Right? Or a hundred percent we're gonna, you know, whatev whatever the thing is. And it's like, well that's not a per, none of us are like that, right? Yeah. We all make that decisions at times. We all do things that are. Yeah, questionable. Or that we later think, oh, why did I say that? Why did I do that? Whatever. So I just want to go there with all of the characters and you know, that's part of why the book took so long, because it was really thinking through, who these characters were both as individuals, and then also how their varied identities affect. How they're perceived by, by other people. Nathaniel is not every Jewish kid from Newton. He's Nathaniel. But at the same time, you know, we're all living in the same. World and our skin color and our sexuality and how much money we have. All of those things affect how we're perceived sometimes how we perceive ourselves.

Brett Benner: 28:45

It's interesting'cause as you're sitting here talking about a lot of this, and there is so much about race and class. Wrapped up in this identity. And I think that the book does force you to start to ask questions about your own identity and what we all as people, the kind of outside face we put on and the inside face and, and, and who we are. The privacy behind our closed doors versus what we are outside in the world.

Lucas Schaeffer: 29:13

Yeah, and I would, I'd also say with Nathaniel specifically, I mean one of, one of the things I was thinking about is I think we all have an understanding of what. People who are sort of overtly racist are like, and those people to me are not that interesting. But Nathaniel is operating from a place, I mean, he really makes some problematic decisions, but he's also operating from this place of really admiring David and, and loving David. I mean, they're, they're, they're really friends by the end of their time together.

Brett Benner: 29:50

And there's a fascination with David and, and who he represents to Nathaniel and, and, and aspirational as well, I think. Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. Because, because of, of, of, of what he thinks, well, I can be this as well. Um, that doesn't just include race, but certainly that drives a lot of it. Um. I do wanna talk about the ex character for a minute.'cause I thought Sure. That he, he was so fascinating, especially because we are talking about a narrative that that is taking place. I believe this starts in 1998. Am I getting that correct? Yeah.

Lucas Schaeffer: 30:26

1998.

Brett Benner: 30:27

Right. So. All of these conversations about gender certainly and gender identity. And you refer to that in the book at one point about these conversations were really not ever being had. And the relevancy with what's happening currently in our, in our country, with trans people especially. But, How did he come about? I, I, I just, I found him and his journey in terms of both gender and sexuality I, I think is so interesting.

Lucas Schaeffer: 30:54

Yeah. So I'd say a couple things with that. I mean, one, one thing I do mention in the, in the book that I think is true is I think in 1998 at, at the very least, he was not privy to those conversations. Yeah. You know, I, I do think some of that was already happening within, um. Within certain circles, but those were not circles that this character not, but it's

Brett Benner: 31:17

certainly not a national circle, you know? No, not a national

Lucas Schaeffer: 31:20

conversation. Right. And he, you know, I could be wrong about this because it's now been. So long and I start to forget how everything emerged. But I, I think what happened with X is there's another character in the book, Belinda, who's ex's mother, who is who I started with. Wow. Okay. And Belinda is this former Playboy, playmate who is now cutting hair and sort of struggling to make ends meet and, So I created her and she was a very recognizable Austin character to me. I think if you've lived in Austin, you have probably met someone who is Belinda like at some point. And, um, I knew I wanted her to have a, a family. And so. X was, was her child. And you know, I think what's fascinating about Belinda is she's this person who has really, um. Had some things happen to her as a woman. And because she was a woman that have affected her life and and constrained her in some ways. And so having her have this son who is exploring gender identity and doesn't feel quite right, you know, as, as a boy or isn't quite sure what's going on, with his gender, that was really dramatically interesting because. Belinda has all of these. I mean, she is homophobic and transphobic to use our sort of current, way of thinking about this. But she's also operating in her own way from a place of love because she's like, I have been through this and don't want this. For you. Yeah, I know. I love this

Brett Benner: 33:00

part, part of that relationship tension. Yeah. I love this part of the relationship because she's a woman who know, like just being a Playboy playmate, she knows what she has, so to speak. Yeah. She knows what her appeal is, but also recognizes kind of the, the patriarchy and her place in it, but I was also fighting against it. Frankly, she always wanted a son because she didn't want Right. A daughter to have to go through what she understands and recognizes.

Lucas Schaeffer: 33:24

Right. And the, when we were talking about these started as short stories. So the initial short story that I wrote that is not in the book and nothing like this happens in the book is it's Belinda taking X to the boxing gym and saying, if you're gonna explore in this way, you need to learn how to. Fight back and Wow. And is just not, that's when you read the book, you'll see that that is now, that feels like definitely not what happened.

Brett Benner: 33:49

Yeah. And now that feels like someone's fan fiction.

Lucas Schaeffer: 33:53

Yeah. Well, I mean, the problem with doing this in sort of a short story format is you can only have so many stories where someone goes to the gym for the first time. Yeah, yeah. For the first time. Right. You're not gonna have 20 stories of of, of a person going to Terry Tucker's box for the first time. It's not a book. I think most people wanna. I wanna engage with. Right.

Brett Benner: 34:11

So talk about Austin for a second, because, um, sure. It, it is in itself. It, uh, a character in this book in a lot of ways. And for the, uninformed, first of all, I had no idea that Austin was such a literary hub to begin with. I really knew there was literary festivals, but it is, it is quite a, a place for writers and, and, and readers.

Lucas Schaeffer: 34:32

Yeah, I mean, I think coming from the northeast, moving to Austin, Austin is historically a little more casual than what you would find in the Northeast. So I, I, I remember first moving there very early on in my time in Austin, I had a friend who ran a nonprofit and bill Clinton agreed to do a charity event for her nonprofit. And it was during the day and it was outside, but I wore. A, a dark suit because I was like, this is the president of the United States and. People thought I was in the Secret Service because there were, people were wearing shorts, there was like Hawaiian shirts. I was like, oh my God, this is the best place. Like I'm, I'm staying here. But I think for me, I mean, I think what was so special about my early years at. The, the real gym in Austin was, I feel like I just got to meet such a broad swath of the city. You know, I think we have certain ideas about Austin, whether it's like the Dazed and Confused Austin or now like the tech bro Austin, and like all of these are accurate, but they're not the whole story. And I just feel like I. Really got to have this, this friend group and this social circle that was, much more wide and and varied throughout the city than I would've had otherwise. And so that definitely inspired a lot about this book. And I love. Books like White Teeth and NW by Zadie Smith. I love Edward P. Jones, Jennifer Egan, these writers who really take you through an entire community, And into these little nooks and crannies of the community. And I really wanted to try my hand at doing that for Austin, um, which is a city. There were great books about Austin, but I wanted to kind of put my own, my own spin on it. And the other thing, and this is true about both Austin, and it's true, there's a little bit of the book said in in Newton, in, in My Hometown, a lot of things happen in this book that are pretty wild, right? Yeah. And I, I really wanted to ground it in, real places because. I, I just, I, I wanted that feeling of this is really happening. And even if wild things happen, it makes sense, and of course they're happening, right? Like this, it, it's not a satire, it's not fantastical. It, it really is supposed to be kind of read as you know. Realist sounds a little bit ridiculous, but it's literal. It's really, yeah, yeah. Right. What, what's happening on the pages? What's happening? And so part of that for me, just mentally away, I did that, was including a lot of real places. So like the restaurants, I, because I went through a phase of like, okay, well I go to Magnolia Cafe, but we can't call it Magnolia Cafe. What about Sunflower Cafe? And it was like, I'm not doing this for. This entire city that I know pretty well. So we're just gonna have Magnolia Cafe, be Magnolia Cafe and the Sculpture Garden is that And Barton Springs Is Barton Springs, yeah. And you know, the, the high school Nathaniel goes to is Newton South High School, which is where I went to high school. And I, I just felt like this was a way for me to keep, keep me as a writer and also the reader, you know, readers who are familiar with those places grounded in them.

Brett Benner: 37:47

No, I loved it. You also do a really interesting thing. And of course again, it was a kind of, window into some of the people of this world. Later in the book, Nathaniel's Uncle. Is in a class with a group of women. Yes. And, and it kind of takes on this, omniscient, viewpoint as we go with these women and their perception of what's happening. And I thought that was so ingenious, but, but talk about that for a second. What led you to put that in there?

Lucas Schaeffer: 38:17

Yeah. So the women are in a Jewish women's book club and they decide to enroll in. Something called Citizen Police Academy, which I think is no longer called that, but is a real thing that's offered. It does exist. Oh, wow. It exists all over. There's pro, there may be one in LA for all I know. I mean, they're, they're in a lot of different cities, but I enrolled in Citizen Police Academy to see Wow. To see what it was all about. So, so for listeners who've never heard of this, this is in Austin. It's a 14 or 15 week class. You go to Austin Police headquarters for four hours each week and you get these presentations from different, um, you know, the homicides detective comes and talk to the, talks, to the gang suppression, the, you know, nuisance abatement society, you know, group, the people who deal with hoarders and it's. It's billed as sort of introducing you, letting citizens understand how the police department works. There's obviously, a, a propaganda element there. They, this is their chance to kind of put out their, pr, which they're fairly open about. And then you also go on a ride along with the police officer. Which, I did a couple of those because this appears in the book, you follow a police officer for, for quite a while in the book. So I did two overnight shifts with, with officers. This was about 10 years ago. And, because I was, writing about, the issues in this book, there's race, there's crime, you know, really sort of, I wanted to see what was going on.

Brett Benner: 39:48

This is your Real Life Cops episode.

Lucas Schaeffer: 39:50

Well, I'd heard about this class and I was like, this is so bizarre. Like, what is this? But it struck me as, you know, various characters are trying to figure out the mystery of what happened to Nathaniel. It struck me, the class just. Had some characters in it and was just, it, it's, it's sort of just a weird idea. and was just unusual. So I started playing around with that. And then, the why is it narrated that one chapter from the point of view of three women in a Jewish women's book club? I will maybe leave that for readers to interpret on their own, but I will say, I mean, I. One of the ways I think that I wrote this book was coming in kind of sideways at some of the different plot points and, and plot issues. So, you know, Bob Alexander, who is Nathaniel's uncle, who ends up investigating what had sort of playing detective himself. You know, I think he would've been the obvious narrator for that chapter. But it somehow. Just with my own way of writing and thinking. It just didn't quite work. It was too on the nose. There was something, you know, not quite happening. So I thought, well, who could he enlist,, sort of to help him and, and these women kind of emerged.

Brett Benner: 41:05

I. Oh my God, it's so great. It's almost like a Greek chorus of of, of, yeah. Of women. It's, it's, it's really Thank you. It's great. I just have to say on a side note, and this of course becomes a plot point, and I don't wanna go into it But, I did also notice this on your Instagram is your fascination with clowns. And so I was like, wow, he really, are you a pro clown person? Generally? Are you someone who's scared of clowns?

Lucas Schaeffer: 41:29

Okay, so Austin, the Alamo Drafthouse, whenever the movie IT two came out, like it number, the sequel ticket hit. Yeah. They had a clown's only screening of it too, where you, to be admitted to the screening, you had to go dressed as a clown. And I had a friend who really wanted to do this and who was also very good with makeup and so got a bunch of us together and really went for it. Like the wigs, the bow ties, the everything. And I think that I do have a fascination with clowns but I do think the photographic record of this one event has sort of. On social media made it seem perhaps like I have more, like every image of me dressed as a clown is from the it too screening in 2019 or whenever that movie came out. Just feel like it was one

Brett Benner: 42:15

time people, it was one time. One, it was one time.

Lucas Schaeffer: 42:18

But I do find them, you know, I, I find them sort of interesting sort of malicious characters.

Brett Benner: 42:25

It's what what's done in the book is so, um, again, you talked about things that, you know, literally are happening, And this for me, this very akin to something that John Irving would think of. So, um, yeah, I, I, I kind of love that. I wanna, I wanna kind of close out with this quote from the book, which I think. Spoke to me. It's towards the end, but it doesn't give anything away, but it kind of speaks to me about the book as a whole. Anyway, I, I'm not even gonna say who this is, but I'll just say, I'll read the quote people don't go to boxing gyms to stay the same. We're not static. The world is not static. Stories that start as one thing sometimes become another. And I thought that was such a great encapsulation of the book as a whole, and who all these people and the journeys they go through. So

Lucas Schaeffer: 43:12

thank you. Yeah,

Brett Benner: 43:13

I, yeah, absolutely. This has been so great. I can, I could talk to you forever and, um, continue and unpack this and I'm, so excited for people to discover,, the mystery of Nathaniel, but also this treasure trove of such amazing characters. Thank you. So please go by the slip. Woo. Sorry, go by this. No, no, Buy independent if you can, but I definitely get it. It's truly, dare I say a knockout. That's so cheesy of me. Thank you. But thank you so much for being here, Lucas. This is, this is such a pleasure.

Lucas Schaeffer: 43:47

Thank you for having me.

Brett Benner: 43:48

Thank you again Lucas, and if you've liked what you heard today and are enjoying these episodes, please consider liking and subscribing on your podcast platform of choice. Also, what would be really helpful is if you could leave a review, that would be amazing. And once again, I will be back later this week with author Jonathan Parks Ramage to discuss his new book. It is not the end of the world. So until then, have a great week.