Nicola Dinan, Disappoint Me

In this episode Brett sits down with Nicola Dinan to talk about her sophomore book, "Disappoint Me". They discuss identity and assimilation, what good fiction can do, food writing, and a serendipitous episode of "The White Lotus".

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hey, it's Brett Benner, and welcome or Welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack. Where we're almost into June. We're almost halfway through this year is flying by. I, I, I can't even believe it. I hope, uh, for those of you who are in the States, you all had a nice Memorial Day weekend. The books are still coming out fast and furious, and it seems more and more every week as we get into the summer. I just wanna say regarding this summer, please stick around if you're enjoying this podcast because I have a packed June coming up with. Nearly every week I have two authors, so it's uh, double featured June on Behind the Stack. A couple of books that are coming out today. Two in particular I wanted to mention. The first is the South by Tash. Aw, this is the first of what is expected to be a quartet of books about a family. And, I'm really excited to read this one. The other is for all my Stephen King fans, of which I am one, his new book Never Flinch, featuring, fan favorite character, Holly Gibney. So check those out. Alright, now onto today's author, I am. Really was so thrilled to sit down with Nicola Dinan for her new book Disappoint Me. I have been such a fan of Nicola's since her debut bellies, and have followed her. And so when this book came out, I was really desperate to sit down and talk with her. And, uh, she is just delightful. So a little bit about Nicola. her debut bellies won the Polari First book prize, was shortlisted for the diverse book awards and was a finalist for a Lambda literary award and was long listed for the Gordon by Prize and Brooklyn Public Library Book Prize. She grew up in Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur, and currently lives in London. So please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I had started to say I am just, I, I'm so grateful to be sitting here with you because there are certain books that you read. I've talked about this before, that I feel like wherever you are, whatever you're doing at that time, somehow they, they stick in your head and they resonate for whatever reason. And so it kind of steers the location of where you are when you read it. That happened with me with your first book Bellies and I, it was in Ohio. I had been taking my son to college and I was alone, and I don't even know how I, I think the audio book had been sent to me. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna try this. And I was so captivated and I, I was so moved and. I, I felt like I have to tell everybody about this book, and I, I just, it was such an incredible and an insured debut that I couldn't, I couldn't believe this was the first book and thank you. And I really was just like, at the time I was doing the Gaze Reading podcast and, and it was almost like too late, the timing of it, but I, so I was watching you and watching, you know, this book kind of explode and I was like, I, I. I wanted to talk to you so badly, and so when they said your next book was coming out, I was just so, so, so excited. And I was like, I can't, I can't, I have to sit down with her. I have to meet her just because, I don't know. I don't always have that reaction. And I'm so thrilled also that to say like, this is as good, if not better than bellies and it. Again, there's no sophomore slump. It's just another fantastic and smart and insightful book. You know, I said about bellies, it kind of hit into the zeitgeist of what it is right now to be young and that whole world. I. And I think you captured it again with this, and you are one of those writers to me who is, dare I say, almost ahead of their time because you are capturing these moments and these feelings and these characters that I think are so necessary and fresh and needed. So anyway, I I, I'm gonna stop gushing now, but just to say congratulations. I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled you're here.

Nicola Dinan: 4:13

Well, thank you so much. That was all incredibly flattering. So always a nice way to start a conversation. Um, but, you know, I'm so happy that you found bellies to begin with. I think, uh, bellies are had what maybe I would describe as a quieter release in the us um, maybe in particular compared to the uk. And so I'm always really happy when I see American readers, um, who've managed to find it or pick it up at the bookshop.

Brett Benner: 4:43

Yeah, I mean, and if I'm being blunt, like I hated the American cover because I, I felt like the cover, and I understand this is probably a challenge. It wasn't representative of what the, the book really was, and it painted it to me as some kind of, you know, Romcom. I just think it didn't capture the essence of the book, and I, so I thought even the marketing of it, I thought this is incorrect. Like I wouldn't have necessarily thought of it based on this kind of, you know, cutesy, primary colored book. So it, that was another reason for me. I mean, it was like, I, I had it as one of my top 10 books of the year and I, I pushed and will continue to push it just because I think it's so good. And.

Nicola Dinan: 5:23

Thank

Brett Benner: 5:24

you much like this. So, so before we dive into the new book, I just, I had some like curious questions about you just personally. So you grew up in Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur? I did. And did you always want to be a writer or is this something that can kind of came later for you?

Nicola Dinan: 5:39

I always enjoyed writing. I think, uh, when I. Think about, uh, my sort of teen years and early twenties, I was sort of like a serial quitter. Um, or rather, actually, no, let's phrase that in a more positive light. I, I, I tried a lot of things that weren't quite right for me. You know, I, I moved to the UK when I was 18, my dad's family of British, uh, and I moved for university and I studied science of all things. And then very quickly realized that that wasn't for me particularly. Sure, science and theory, science and practice. Like, you know, being in the lab and having to put things into pipe pets. I'm terrible with my hands. I'm not a careful person. Very physically clumsy. And so I realized I can't do this. And so. I started to look towards the humanities and ended up, you know, specializing in the history and philosophy of science. And then I graduated and decided, okay, I'll be a lawyer. And I did a sort of a. Conversion law degree and then trained as a lawyer and worked at a corporate law firm for a few years, and then also during that time had this sort of sense of dread of just knowing that the life I'd chosen and put it a number of years into was just not for me at all. But around that time, I was really thinking about what have I always enjoyed doing? And ever since I was a teenager, I've been writing short stories and. I have a best friend from Malaysia called Aisha and. All throughout our teenage years and also our twenties, we were sending each other bits of creative writing. And I think I, despite that being the only thing I've consistently loved doing, it never really struck me that I could be a writer until I got older. Um, and in my mid twenties and had a bit more of a sense of the possibilities that life actually has outside of the narrow set of things which I had prescribed for myself and. I think when I was younger and, you know, for a lot of my late twen, uh, early twenties, I fell into the trap that a lot of people do, which is I fell in love with the idea of. Doing things. So, you know, I fell in love with like, oh, isn't it cool to like be a scientist? And, oh, maybe it's really, I love the idea of myself as a lawyer. Um, and I think I failed to pay a lot of attention to the verb, you know, the, the science thing, the lawyering. But, you know, the verb I think I've always been able to be on board with is writing. And so when I started writing bellies. I gave myself the permission to call myself a writer. So this was when I was 26, about five years ago, and from then it became so clear to me that this is what I wanted to do. And the moment I knew for sure and the moment I quit my job as a lawyer was when I'd finished. What might have been the first or second draft of bellies and I asked myself, what am I gonna do if this novel doesn't work out? And the answer came to me in a second, which was, I'll write another book and wow that. That was the moment where I was like, okay, this is something I have to take a leap of faith with and give myself this. Space to fully explore. And so I'd had some savings. I quit my job and I dedicated six months intensely to editing bellies during which time I found an agent and we sent it out to publishers, and then I had a book deal and I knew, okay, well this career can sort of be real now.

Brett Benner: 9:16

Wow. And but the early drafts of everything, there was no, you were doing this all on your own. Correct. There was nobody looking over your shoulder. There was no one revising for you. Correct.

Nicola Dinan: 9:26

Well, I was really lucky. I. Firstly, yes, you're right. Like ultimately no one does the writing, but you. But I actually had joined a writing workshop and so what was amazing was that I was forced in a peer group to share my work from a very early stage of the novel. I was probably halfway through my first draft when I, uh, joined this course with 15 other writers, a couple of whom I'm still really close to, and it meant that I got used to the idea of exposure quite quickly. I. And, began that tricky process of letting go of perfectionism, which is a necessary part of receiving criticism and also and sharing your work with other people. And so, yeah, it was alone and then it wasn't. I think, you know, writing is something which is inevitably solitary, you know, that's kind of why I do it. I love, I love. Not having to, um, not having to engage with much else than the work I'm doing compared to sort of being in an office environment where everyone seems to be asking me for things that I don't actually want to do. Um, but there's something wonderful, wonderfully solitary about being a writer. But there's also, you know, at the most critical points in your writing, you do have to engage with other people. And I learned that lesson quite early on.

Brett Benner: 10:41

And how was it for you having gone through that experience, kind of letting go, you've created this piece of art and then you have to put it out there. Mm-hmm. And then the experience becomes bigger than you, right? Because it's a shared experience. Are you someone who could go back and look at something, or is it, you know, I always liken it to actors who say, I never wanna watch myself on screen. I never wanna see that performance. Do you feel that? Or do you feel like, you know, once it's out, it's out and onto the next?

Nicola Dinan: 11:07

I mean, I don't think I even wait for the first book to be out to move next to the next thing, which I love. I feel like I'm sort of, I'm at the stage of my life. I'm 31 and I'm feeling like I'm in the time of my life in which I can produce a lot of work because mm-hmm. Um, I'm sort of living without the constraints that a lot I might have sort of later on in my life. And so I'm sort of. I at the moment, I feel like I have three books on the go. You know, we're having this conversation about book two. I've written my third book, which is, uh, currently with my editor. I'm waiting for comments, and then in the meantime I'm writing book four. And so there's a real sense of, okay, I'm moving on to the next thing, faith, because, you know, girl's gotta eat. Um, so, you know, I have to, I have to write these books, but two, because I love it, and there's a sense of, okay, what, what, what frees me? From. Sort of the anxiety that this book isn't going to perform in the way that I hope. What frees me from that terror of things not going quite right, and I find that the solution to that is always reminding myself that there are more words in the well. I can always return to it. And write something new. And the possibility here, the possibilities are sort of endless in terms of what I can create. And I think we see a lot of that journey in Max and disappoint me. You know, we start the book and we meet her. She sort of would describe herself as a failed poet, although of course the book sort of challenges, uh, what. Her notions of what failure means. Mm-hmm. And she's really struggling to reconnect to creativity. Having published a book of poetry, which is poorly received critically, and feeling as if this sort of venture in which she took a lot of risks to achieve was sort of f nil. And I think in waiting for bellies to be published, I was going through similar feelings of anxiety of. Not quite knowing how I would move on again, you know, I said the moment I quit my job was when I knew I would write another book, but that was still so far away from publication. So when publication actually came, I started to feel that terror and I was like, will I actually be able to carry on writing if this doesn't work out? And I did learn that I. You know that the best way to sort of cure that was to really reengage with the verb, like I said, and you know, the last question that you asked, I think the best thing for me is always to remove myself from the idea of something. The idea of being successful author and connect with the fact that I actually do just quite like writing.

Brett Benner: 13:45

I saw you were talking in another interview, and so I, I had to ask you this, where you said, you know, you're talking about the book cliche of the, of, of the first book you write is the book you have to write and, and the second is the book you wanna write. And so at the time you had said, you know, bellies was really that book you had to write. And so do you think it's followed suit? Was, was, uh, disappoint Me and the book you wanted to write?

Nicola Dinan: 14:03

So funny. Whenever someone is like, oh, I've read, someone interviewing me refers to another interview, I just, I'm flushed with a wave of dread.'cause I'm like, what did I say? Are you, is it, is it the moment

Brett Benner: 14:14

before, like you said this, and I'm gonna tell you what you said. Yeah.

Nicola Dinan: 14:17

But even sometimes, you know, in, in the heat of the moment of the interview, uh, sometimes you just say things kind of spontaneously of that you look back and you're like, maybe do I even think that? Um, but I think, uh, you know, I. Disappoint me felt. I don't necessarily think that. I didn't want to write bellies, you know, I, yeah. I felt like I've raised it with a real sense of urgency, and I think that's reflected in almost the tone of the book. It's filled with this, these characters in their early twenties who are sort of, um, approaching life, uh, life with sort of all these extreme emotions. Like they're laughing, they're crying, they're experiencing almost like their full compliment of human emotions for their first time in their lives as they sort of traverse those years of their early twenties. And I. That's sort of, you know, when I think of the word had, I think that's where the urgency comes from. Not so much that I, I felt like it's a book I had to get out of me, although in some senses I did. But I think the book itself is quite urgent. Or rather the book reflects that urgency in which I, which I wrote it, I think naturally. With the second book, I wasn't in a situation that I was trying to get out of. And what I mean by that is when I wrote Bellies, part of that urgency and feeling of had to was born out of the fact that I was working a job I hated and I wanted to not do a job I hated and find a career. I. That I found really meaningful and when I started writing Disappoint me, I had more space. I had a bit more of a sense of where my future would go. And so I think that meant that I was also a bit more con contemplative in mm-hmm. Writing it. And I think that's also reflected in the tone of the novel as well. And I think that sort of also reflects the time of life that we find the characters and disappoint me. It's interesting because bellies was very much. A retrospective exercise. How do I make sense of my early twenties as someone in my mid twenties? Disappoint me was sort of the opposite. How might I see my life transform in the next few years as I approach my phase? And so there's sort of a deflated ness that you find in the characters at the start of disappoint me, where they're sort of just a bit jaded and I think you can imagine. The characters in bellies sort of feeling that way once they reach their thirties, even though the novels aren't, even though the novels aren't sort of connected, I always describe them as sort of spiritual sequel or rather, I describe, disappoint me as a spiritual sequel to bellies. What is this next stage of life holding for them? And that is a stage of life, which is sort of. Uh, a a period of life where you are really, where you're not motivated by had tos and sense of urgency. You are actually kind of, well, in some sense you are, but you are also really questioning what it is or what it is that you want in terms of the life you want to build. Um. Not sort of the chaos of being in your early twenties. You are outta that and you, uh, and when you're outta that, you're sort of just left with yourself. And there's a question of where does my life go? How do I want to conform to the expectations that are placed on me as a woman? Um, and at particularly a trans woman navigating a heteronormative world. Um, these sort of bigger questions that are less to do with identity and how, and with more to do with how one chooses to live.

Brett Benner: 17:36

Yeah. And I'm so glad you said that because I, I, I, I had, I had said right when I was putting notes together, this feels to me, like you said, it's not a sequel in any way, but it feels almost as if in some person's journey where they would be at this point in their life with the launch off being bellies. And then here we are, say five years later. And existing. Um, so this is a perfect time, I think to like, if, if, if you wouldn't mind, if you have, do you have an elevator pitch? Um, for disappoint me?

Nicola Dinan: 18:07

Yeah, I do. Well, okay. Well, how many words is an elevator pitch? Is my or what? See, well, you can,

Brett Benner: 18:13

I, I, but I always said you can, we can be in the tall building or it could be a brown house. Mm-hmm. A townhouse. Do you know what I mean? It's really up to you. I'm not gonna be like, let's go pretty

Nicola Dinan: 18:22

tall.

Brett Benner: 18:23

Okay. Yeah. Take it.

Nicola Dinan: 18:25

So disappoint me, follows a trans woman named Max. She's 30 and she falls down the stairs at a New Year's Eve party. Wakes up in hospital and her first thought is, I'm gonna. Find a boyfriend, you know, is this the death of feminism? And she enters into a very convenient, heteronormative partnership with a British Chinese man called Vincent, and their relationship is propelled into greater seriousness by a number of health issues. Surrounding them. But the novel is also told from Vincent's perspective and not in the present, but his 2012 gap year in Thailand, where where he travels around with his best friend Fred Am meets a gorgeous traveler named Alex, and through these two timelines we see a. Relationships in one time echoing into the future and contemplate what it means to reconcile with our past selves and the ugliest parts of our histories.

Brett Benner: 19:20

Excellent. And we've arrived.

Nicola Dinan: 19:22

And we've arrived on the hundred and 50th floor.

Brett Benner: 19:25

No, it really wasn't that long at all. It was. So what was the, it was there, one thing was that was the initial inspiration for you that keyed off this idea.

Nicola Dinan: 19:32

So it was definitely born out of, you know. I was 27 when I started writing Disappoint Me, and I was looking around me and sensing that there was a shift in the air. Uh, people were, I. Talking about relationships with greater gravity. Mm-hmm. Uh, heterosexual people were referring to their boyfriends and girlfriends as their partners talking about the future. One year away became talking about the future. Five years away, some people I know were even falling pregnant, and there was a real sense at which life was moving ahead. And I, and so many of the women around me were struck with a feeling of how, um, are we going to be at the party for too long? You know, are the lights going to come on at 6:00 AM and we're going to look around and no one's there. And were there, ratty hair sweaty, lost our keys. No way to get home. So that was, you know, that was where I started writing the book. And you know, I write from, I write from the perspective of a trans woman, both from my own perspective in that, of Max's in the novel. But it was a feeling of that I was really observing in all of the women around me, cec, all trans, and the anxieties of how do I fit into the expectations that are being placed on me as I move into the next stage. Of life and you know, there was almost a feeling of having spent argie as liberated women chasing what we wanted, building our careers, and suddenly when as we approached 30, the tone changed and it was much more, okay, well like, are you dating anyone? Or you know. Is it serious? Like, do you think you'll get married? And that's quite terrifying. And suddenly all of these things that I spent my twenties building up felt less important in the context of the security of a romantic relationship. And so that was where it really started, and I think that's why the book is sort of, I think, pitched as an exploration of heteronormativity, but through the eyes of a trans woman.

Brett Benner: 21:33

Yeah, and I think it's fascinating because I was thinking about this whole idea of, of Max and the hetero normity, normative, normative, et. A lot of

Nicola Dinan: 21:42

you got there. I did

Brett Benner: 21:44

eventually, because I also, you know, this is because I think this has always existed because I always think of, you know. In the queer community. Even when, I remember when in these states when gay marriage was becoming legalized, and so many people saying, well, I'm like, why am I gonna, why am I gonna subscribe to that? Why am I gonna do that? So I think it's such a prevalent thing that exists of always how much do you subscribe to something? How much do you give into something, and how much does almost society just beat you down with everything that it's giving you to say. But this is a thing you want, right? You, you want to find your partner, you want to get married, you wanna, you know, have children and have that dream of the white picket fence and the school and the kids going off and the dog and all of those kind of things that you subscribe to. You know, here you have this character and a, and a and what in a many ways, like many in the queer community who are gonna rebel against it and say, but is that actually what I want? Mm-hmm. Coupled with, but is it also really comforting?

Nicola Dinan: 22:45

Absolutely. And you know, I, I always think about the success of the gay marriage movement and how sort of the, the ideal image of sort of a gay couple to sort of sell the idea of gay marriage was sort of a, you know, a two white gay men with their dog with a suburban home. And it's like, look, they're just like us. And you know, there's a, there's a real sense of the ways in which. Queer people have bartered for acceptances through assimilation and you know, we see that on racial lines as well. And I think,

Brett Benner: 23:17

yeah,

Nicola Dinan: 23:18

you know, I, I'm really fascinated by that idea because you know, though, I think what Max finds is that though she may assimilate into a heteronormative world, she also feels this deep sense of alienation. From it both in terms of its promises and its its expectations. And I think those things often come in hand. The promises are given, uh, in exchange for certain expectations being met, and I think she sort of has to confront that whilst also feeling. Quite alienated from the queer world that she inhabits in London, which is, you know, much less concerned with revolutionary potential than it is with sort of appearing at the right events and seeming a, a certain type of call and those things, which maybe she held, um, a huge sense of, or placed a huge amount of importance on in her no longer means as much in her thirties and yet. That's how she's identified with her queerness during that time. And so what does it mean for her to fall down the stairs at a New Year's Eve party and really want to pull away from a world which she doesn't think necessarily serves her anymore, but that doesn't necessarily dispel her own queerness, and I think right. We witness in the novel, these tensions between, you know, these feelings of desire and alienation that often are directed at the exact same thing. And I think, you know, max. As a trans woman who transitioned a large number of years before the start of the novel is sort of lived her medical transition with the aim of assimilation. And here it is, you have the uh, you have the nice boyfriend who seems accepting of you, and everyone sees you as just mostly just a cis, her couple or just like everyone else. I think she doesn't find as much peace in that as she had hoped, and I. As a writer, what's interesting for me is that I'm often described as writing love stories I've seen disappoint me, described as a love story. Bellies I've seen described as a love story, and I find that so interesting because I see my books as being part, maybe part of a. Larger project of the deprioritization of romantic love. You know, I think in many ways Bellies is more breakup novel than it is a classical love story. Um, and in some ways, yes, max and Vincent's relationship is sort of a, the focal point of the novel, but almost it functions as a way to bring, um. Other aspects of their character that to the fore rather than focusing on the love. And I don't think the lesson is that romantic love is going to save max. Rather what she learns is how to, um, approach it with this greater sense of realism for what it can do for her.

Brett Benner: 26:06

Sure. And I also think what you said too is, you know, it's like the careful what you wish for. Mm-hmm. Because I think. This really resonated with me last night as I was going back through this idea of identity and assimilation, and for someone like Max, who, like you said, had transitioned, so she's very much in her life and for all, for all observers. For the most part. They just, she probably just goes through her life appearing as a cisgendered, heterosexual woman. But I think, again, this really resonated me as. As a queer person, because what's happening right now in the trans community is the, we all know is the exact same thing that has happened, happened previously, years and years ago with the gay community and then it moved into gay marriage and now we're trans. It's like, you know, who is the enemy in terms of sexuality and gender and all of that thing, which is so horrifying, but. You know, I remember being early on as a gay person, you know, you'd always just say, well, you know, gay is not my whole identity. I'm so much more than just being gay. And the irony of all that is like, I keep looking at that now and think, but it's exactly what my identity is. Sure. I'm more than my sexuality. But at the same time, it's exactly what identifies me. It's exactly what gives me my point of view. There used to be that question that I remember years and years and years ago, friends would say, if you could take a pill and change yourself. With one pill, would you do it? And I unequivocally always would say, well, no, because this is me. This is my whole, this is a part of my identity. And there's a passage when she talks about it in here where she says, I. If I'm not performing queerness, if what I'm perceived to be as just a woman and one who isn't trans or gay, then where did I, where does identity really take me? What cause does it serve? And I was like, wow, that's it. Exactly. I mean, it's staying true to yourself while also is it finding the happily ever after, but on what terms? I don't know. And you've also created with. Vincent, this guy who's so appealing, I mean, he really is like Prince Charming. You know, there's, there's, there's nothing about him that would, you would be like, well, he's, he's, he's fantastic. He's handsome. He's sensitive, which is also why I, I love what you've done with the narrative and did you know going into this, that you were always going to have this past for him that was kind of gonna be in conversation with the present?

Nicola Dinan: 28:24

I think when I, the moment I decided to. Include Vincent's chapters when he's traveling in Thailand, which was relatively early on in drafting the novel. That was the moment it stopped being sort of a collection of different pieces of writing and became, in my mind, a novel that was going to run to completion. I think, you know, it just, it, it's not, the story's not there without it. I think so much of the. And this links to what you just sort of said about identity, but so much of the novel interrogates the essential reality that our past informs our present, uh, in a similar way in which we can't deny that being gay or being trans, uh, though it may not defy the entirety of one's identity is still a part of our identities that informs our existence and how we engage with the world around us in a way that we can't really deny no matter how. Mm-hmm. Much we crave acceptance. And so, you know, with Vincent, he goes on this gap here and bad things happen. You know, as you can sort of imagine, I think maybe the White Lotus season three, I know actually a very useful heuristic tool for, um, for, for readers of my book. This is actually very convenient. I know it was

Brett Benner: 29:43

so, it was so in syn and I was like.

Nicola Dinan: 29:48

As well. And they go to the full moon party, they go to the half moon party in my book that it's, you know, basically the same thing. And I'm like, wow, what a great visual aid to illustrate. It was amazing. Illustrate the horrors of the, of these, of these Thailand chapters with Vincent. And you know, I think I was very interested in this idea of, um, self-censorship. I experienced this as a trans person, you know, um, how to, in what ways do I sort of like try to hide, you know, pictures of what I, maybe what I looked like when I was a teenager, for example. Um, to what extent am I editing. Aspects of my history so that I don't have to confront the person who I once was, who brings up in feelings in me, which are negative. And I think that form of self editing, and almost like the deletion of self in so far that it makes our present selves uncomfortable is something that's actually, I. Seen across the board,, often in some more malicious forms. As we see with Vincent. I think there's sort of this absence of confrontation between him and Fred in the years, which have lapsed since this bad thing happened. They never address it and it sort of festers and he wants to run away from it almost, I think sat himself. Well. Look how. Far I've come, particularly with this relationship with Max. He's like, but you know, this is such, such a amazing sort of point of evidence for my own personal growth. But at the same time, can you really say that your music moving forward when part of you is still chained to the past? And that process of un chain unchaining necessarily involves a degree of confrontation that I think the characters aren't really willing to participate in. You know, to really, and, and you see that. Across the board, even with Max and her relationship with her father, who was an alcoholic when she was younger, and in adulthood is in recovery. But there's sort of instances from her childhood, which it causes her too much pain to revisit because there these stories are. Ways for her to blame herself for the distance that she in adulthood feels from her father. I think the, these confrontations with the past are incredibly painful. There's something no one really likes to do, and yet they almost feel like a necessary part of making peace with oneself. And you know, you can't run away forever. And I think that's what the human instinct propels us to do, is to run. And so in constructing the novel, I wanted to. Have these two timelines so that there could be an inevitable collision that forces these characters to do what they might not otherwise have done, which is to look

Brett Benner: 32:31

back. And I think, all of these characters in some ways are evading something. And they're, and they're not dealing with something head on, while also grappling so many of the men in this, it's so much toxic masculinity. Mm-hmm. Even her brother, Max's brother Jamie, who is Oh, Jamie. I mean, he, he, he's such an interesting character and I'm like, dude, you're gonna figure it out. I swear you're gonna figure it out eventually, but poor thing. But

Nicola Dinan: 32:58

he's so close as well. I think

Brett Benner: 33:00

he really is. He's like right on that cusp where you're like, let's just pull you over. You almost see it, dude. You almost are there.

Nicola Dinan: 33:07

He's, he's, I think Jamie was such an interesting character to write because I, I, this is why I love writing secondary characters. I think, you know, when I talk about my novels, I'm often stuck with talking about the protagonists of the novels, which tend to exist in pairs. But these secondary characters, I feel like are such a, I like to give them lives of their own. And also have their lives sort of play into the bigger themes of the novel. And I think you see that with Max's brother, Jamie, and also her best friend Simone, who are going, going through things which are cousins to the feelings that Max and Vincent are experiencing over the course of the novel. And you know, Jamie is just so pent. He's so angry,

Brett Benner: 33:46

so angry. He's

Nicola Dinan: 33:47

ordering in to all this anger. Um, and he is so stuck in these very self-flagellating and anxious patterns of behavior, which completely trap him from any meaningful confrontation with, you know, what he needs to do to change. And I think we all know someone like that and feel that sort of deep sense of frustration if not for someone we know, if sometimes for ourselves.

Brett Benner: 34:15

Do you have siblings?

Nicola Dinan: 34:16

Yeah, I'm the youngest of three.

Brett Benner: 34:19

How old is the oldest?

Nicola Dinan: 34:21

So I have two amazing older sisters. One is six years older than me and one is four years older than me.

Brett Benner: 34:27

And you're all very close.

Nicola Dinan: 34:29

Very close. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 34:31

I love that. Yeah. I, I'm the youngest. My, my, my sister, my oldest sister is, uh, 72 and then 70, and then my brother's 64, so there's a huge brother. I'm 57, so there's a massive spread. Wow. Right. And I'm the baby, so I didn't really grow up with my sisters only and my brother. And we didn't, my brother is very close to Jamie in a lot of ways. One of my favorite sequences in some of this was the old friends that, that Max's old friends. And so when the girls get together,'cause one of them is getting married and they all come together and it's so wonderfully bitchy. I.

Nicola Dinan: 35:06

Max

Brett Benner: 35:07

and Simone

Nicola Dinan: 35:07

are so

Brett Benner: 35:07

mean. They're so mean, but it's so relatable and I loved it. It just, it's like literally like, you know that that adage like, if you don't have anything nice to say, come sit by me. And that's truly who they are. And so, yeah. That whole sequence, maybe laugh so hard, but all of these ancillary characters and yeah, I, they're all, they're all great. Simone in particular, at times I was like, wow, this kitty ass clause. But she's so much fun and she's also, she's that ride or die friend, right? She will do anything for Max. She's there, it's like no questions asked. They're there and they'll be brutally honest with each other as much as they can be. And she also, I just like the way she pushes Max a bit too into in situations that are potentially. Uncomfortable and she's that friend.

Nicola Dinan: 35:50

What's so interesting about Simone and Max's friendship for me is that Simone does something in the novel, which again continues, which changes how Max sees her, and that's really strange and difficult for Max and destabilizing to see an old friend in a new light. And it's not completely outta Simone's character, but it's almost the part of. Simone's character that Max gets to enjoy, but in this particular situation, she's unable to enjoy it because what Simone does is very out of kilter with Max's values. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's sort of, I liked writing that friendship because although it's sort of like the enduring love story of the novel, it's like the relationship, you know, will last and stand the test of time beyond any romantic relationship that may enter or leave the women's lives. It's also. Sort of an illustration of how people sort of continue to change and surprise us and how we sort of deal with that and reconcile these new versions of these people with what we have with, with our existing impressions of them.

Brett Benner: 36:56

Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, do you write poetry as well?

Nicola Dinan: 37:03

No, so I don't actually, I did try write more poetry for this book and initially there were like way more poems in the novel and they would sort of separate the chapters. And my agent was very nice about them. She was like, wow, these are quite good. My editor was like, Nicola, these have to go, these are not good. And they interrupt the flow of the novel, however. I was allowed, uh, to keep sort of the opening poem, which is actually just a very small collection of lines, which were initially part of a larger poem and the last poem, which I'm really happy about. I think it's beautiful. I like that the book ends with a poem and I don't think it's. For everyone necessarily. But I'm a big fan of ambiguity in literature. I think it provides enough certainty for me, like I read it and I am like, okay, I have a sense of what's gonna happen or what has happened, but there's also a sense of which I don't ever want. Like really certain declarations of a happy ending or a sad ending. The bow. And I think, yeah, and that's because I don't think that's how life works. I think life is a series of happy endings and sad endings, and you can't guarantee happiness forever at any point in your life. And I think that is kind of what the novel is about. I think Max and Simone, even towards the end of the novel, have a conversation on this very topic and right. You know, there's a sense of, oh, I feel bad for not first sort of denying my reader's certainty. But I also think the, the thing I love as an author is knowing that when the reader puts the book down, that's when the conversation starts. And I like to leave room for that.

Brett Benner: 38:44

I'm so curious'cause you had now two books both dealing with trans women. I'm curious as a trans writer. Do you feel, whether it's been put on you or not, this sense of responsibility or no? Is it simply like, look, I'm writing the stories I wanna write. I'm just curious. Does that make sense?

Nicola Dinan: 39:02

Yeah, no, definitely. I think what, firstly, I think what's interesting to me is like I am asked lots of questions about representation, not only on the trans front, but maybe for the broader queer community. When people look at the cast of characters and the cause of characters in my novels that tend to be quite racially diverse as well. But all of this is just a factor of my own life. Like I write trans characters because I'm trans and I find writing a trans character. Interesting. I have a diverse. Queer group of friends. And that's sort of reflected in my fiction because it's a reality that I find interesting because I find my own life interesting. And so, you know, there's sort of, um, a freedom that comes with that and that when I am initially engaging in the process of writing, I am not thinking too much about, um, the politics of the way which I'm representing characters, which I think is the right way to do it. I. Look with fiction like your fiction meets people where they are. Um, yeah, if someone, firstly, I just don't think anyone who. Has no inclination towards believing in the autonomy and freedom of trans people is going to be like, this is the book for me. Firstly, you know, I think there's already, this is a book club this month. Mm. There's sort of like an openness, which probably already comes from picking up a book like mine. I know. That, uh, with that openness usually comes a willingness to see the characters I'm writing as human. And so even if they're sort of distasteful, unlikeable, whatever, I think I like to be generous to my reader and assuming that they'll be able to disentangle. I. The fact that those negative qualities, um, are not necessarily intrinsically linked or necessarily linked to the fact that they're trans. I think, I don't think, um, anything I write is necessarily like an ammo for transphobes. And if it was, then that's on the basis of a pretty bad faith reading of my work. And I can't cater to people who will read my work in bad faith because I don't write books for them.

Brett Benner: 41:06

Yeah. A hundred percent. That makes sense. It's funny, I was, I had, um, a writer on named Emily St. James and she wrote this book called Woodworking. You might have seen it, and, but it's interesting because I was talking to her about you. I. Bellies now disappoint me.'cause he said bellies and woodworking were two books that I would give anyone who was just even questioning in an open mind. Just even say, I don't understand the experience of what it's like for someone who is facing the idea that they may want to transition. And those two books. Are kind of in conversation with each other about two individuals who are facing this thing and, and the choices they make and what it feels like and kind of the ins and outs and the repercussions about with everyone around it. So that's what just made me think about it. But again, what, what I love about both your books, it isn't, they're just, I. They're not what I would term as trans stories per se. Mm-hmm. They're stories that have trans characters. Clearly in bellies. It's a much more kind of driving force in the beginning. But disappoint me to me is just about these characters. I. And this character happens to be trans the same way this character happens to be Asian and this character's gay, or this character's white, or whatever it is. And that's what makes both books resonate so much with me. They're just really interesting, really engaging characters who have needs and wants and are. Fucked up at times and do stupid shit like everyone does. It's just life. And that's why I think they're so, they're not didactic, they're not trying to, as you just said earlier, it's not, it's not a, it's not political, it's just this is life. And that's why I think they're amazing.

Nicola Dinan: 42:50

Yeah, I mean in the sense, you know, it's, it's, I agree with you. It's sort of not political in that sense, but inevitably is sort of political. And I think, I know, you know, the ways, I, I think something that presents as relatively apolitical, like a novel like this, can still have affect political change because I think if you want to understand how a trans person lives, um, I don't think that comes from reading a pamphlet. I think it comes from engaging intimately with the lives of a life of a trans person. And I think maybe that's what. A book like Disappoint Me offers, and so there's sort of a, uh, I don't think I can escape the question of politics, particularly in the current climate and, you know, to speak more broadly on fiction. You know, I think what I love about fiction is that I think good fiction does two things, and that sort of aims at specificity, but universality at both at once. I don't think there's true universality to any experience, but. What I at least try and what I'm trying to get at by that is, you know, I, I'm presenting a very specific set of circumstances. Um, you know, with respect to a trans character. The transness doesn't define her, but it is still a very important factor for how she navigates a heterosexual relationship, particularly when there are questions of things like marriage and children. And Traditionalism, but it's still, despite that very sort of specific lens, I think it's still offering maybe more universal questions, speaking to more universal feelings, uh, that than would necessarily be expected by reading the profile by one person reading the profile of this character that I've written. And I think, you know, that's how we connect to one another, but I. You know, I don't think this is controversial of me to say, but I think, you know, as we've sort of become a little bit more educated on, uh, different people's lived experiences, there's almost been an inclination to say to people, oh, I will never understand what that's like for you, almost as a way of honoring their life experiences. And I can see where that comes from, and I think it comes from a really good place. At the same time, part of me sometimes as a trans person is I'm like, what? You can sort of understand what this is. Like to me here, read my book. But also, you know, there's a sense of if you really engage and you connect with someone and you try to find points there, points of commonality. There are so many ways for you to attain a certain level of understanding and for their experiences. I don't think saying, oh, I can't understand what that's like for you is necessarily helpful. If anything, it can be quite alienating and I think we should embrace. Our ability to understand one another, not necessarily to the full degree of actually experiencing ourselves, but through finding through these more universal feelings, points of contact with people who are not like us.

Brett Benner: 45:50

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. That is such a great place to stop, but I have to ask you two more things really quick. Veka. First is both of your books deal so much with food. And making food and, and these characters and Maximus, is that a huge thing for you? Are you a big foodie and did you, you know, did you cook?

Nicola Dinan: 46:10

So I, I do cook, but I think my love of food comes from the fact that I am Malaysian and you know, I was born in Hong Kong, but a culture that's hugely obsessed with food. Malaysia as well. Hugely obsessed with food. And so I often find myself reading novels that. We'll have a meal scene and I'm like, why is the author not describing what they're eating? Like I, that is very important setting information to me to know what's on the table. It's sort of, I'm sadly one of those people where if you tell me a story of something dramatic that happened at dinner, I will ask, what did you, what were you eating? Because it just does so much to add atmosphere for me. And so I find myself writing about food a lot for that reason, but also because I think so much of my novels are centered on intimacy, um, situations in which people feel comfortable to be intimate with one another, to have difficult conversations. Um, one of those, uh, one of those settings in which those conversations naturally happen are meal times. Like that's when people sit down with one another and talk. And so. You know, I write food because it's a, it's a means to bring people together in the context of a novel in a similar way to which, like, sex operates similarly, you know, you characters have sex and they're able to be more emotionally vulnerable once they've achieved this level of physical intimacy. And so I think that's sort of the reason. It's sort of, it's, it's a useful tool, but I'm also not gonna not describe the food.

Brett Benner: 47:34

It also just makes me think like I, I, I've always found going to anyone's house for a dinner party, whatever, people always seem to generate towards the kitchen naturally. Mm-hmm. And there's just that thing of someone chopping and everyone standing there with their wine glass. Absolutely. It speaks to so much of this last thing, this is just a sidebar what's happening with the Bellies series? It's

Nicola Dinan: 47:54

not happening. Where

Brett Benner: 47:55

is

Nicola Dinan: 47:55

it? It's not, I, no, so I mean, as I'm sure you'll know from conversations with authors or just, you know, being in the world, like TV's in a really bad spot and I think, yeah, no, it's terrible. What's so interesting is that there was so much excitement when we were selling the rights to bellies three years ago. I've never, you know, my agent, my film TV agent was like, I've never experienced a suffer of interest for something. And then it seemed within the two years after that, everything sort of slowly fell apart. Because the, the tone of projects that the industry was willing to take on and what felt like a riskier environment, uh, not just politically, but also in terms of like what will bring in viewers meant that sort of these slow relationship dramas weren't going to get commissioned. And so, you know, unless I. You know, I'm not gonna add a murder or an alien or a dragon to bellies and unfor. So unfortunately I'm in, I, my options are up. But you know, I hope that with time, maybe there'll be reignited interest when the conditions change. And also there are other exciting things going on because the TV show isn't happening. It means that. The theater project, the theater adaptation with bellies might be able to go ahead. Wow. And so, oh wow. I think, you know, with this industry, it's important to not focus too much on what can feel like huge amounts of loss and just be thinking about, you know, opportunities for different creative projects. And that's why love writing novels so much because. I don't feel, um, I don't feel at the mercy of, you know, industry conditions as extremely as I do when, you know, it concerned the TV adaptation where so much was out of my hands. What's amazing about writing is that I can just always write, it's such a low, right? It's such like a low, um. Low barriers to entry profession to have. All you really need is a pen and paper, and I don't think a lot of jobs can say that.

Brett Benner: 49:54

No, no. And, and you are, you're, you're, you're absolutely right. I mean, you're, you're helming your own ship. In this way. And, um, but that's a bummer only because I was like, oh my God, that creative team, and I thought that they did such a terrific job with, with normal people. Yes.

Nicola Dinan: 50:10

Yeah. They're amazing. I had, I've got so much out of the experience and yeah, I, I, I, I have some quiet hopes for the future for it, but for now, we're onto the next thing.

Brett Benner: 50:21

Well, and like you said, like listen, you're completely prolific at this point and like you've opened up this creative floodgate where it's all just coming through and I love that so much. Wait, is your next book sci-fi? Is that what I heard?

Nicola Dinan: 50:33

So you're not allowed to call it sci-fi'cause the sci-fi people come for you. So I've You call it speculative. Speculative, yes, yes. There we go. Exactly. You called it speculative. So, um, it's a speculation of novel set in 1980s, Hong Kong. That follows to Chinese, um, employees of a major airline who were given the strange task of collecting the used cigarette butts of first class passengers for a secret project in which their British barrister husbands are implicated. So it's sort of like a juicy mystery set in the very glamorous 19.

Brett Benner: 51:11

Wow. That sounds amazing.

Nicola Dinan: 51:13

Thank you.

Brett Benner: 51:14

So something to look forward to.

Nicola Dinan: 51:16

Yeah.

Brett Benner: 51:17

Well, I could talk to you literally all day. This was such a delight. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here and sharing so much insight. Please everyone get the book. It is so, so, so, so good. Um, I. I'm curious too, to hear the audio. I mean, having listened to bellies, I know it's completely different. It's so good. Readers. It's, yeah, the audio is,

Nicola Dinan: 51:35

I'm so proud of it. I, I don't narrate it obviously, but I'm really proud of the actors.

Brett Benner: 51:39

I know there was a part of me that almost would've loved to hear you narrate some of it. I would just loved to have heard your spin on Max's dialogue. But it is so good you guys. And please buy independent if you are able to buy independent. Yep. But again, thank you for being here and, um. Good luck with all of this. I'm so excited for you.

Nicola Dinan: 51:59

Thank you.

Brett Benner: 52:02

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