Behind The Stack

Jemimah Wei, The Original Daughter

• Brett Benner • Season 2 • Episode 37

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In this episode Brett sits down with Jemimah Wei to talk about her debut book, "The Original Daughter". They discuss the competitive Singapore educational system, the currency of self in social media, and the importance of telling your own stories. 

Jemimah's website:

https://jemmawei.com/

Jemimah's instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/jemmawei/

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Brett Benner:

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack. Wow. This is a massive release day for books, so I just wanted to dive right in'cause I just can't even believe how many good ones there are. The first, the Emperor of Gladness by Ocean Ong. Ocean Vong returned to the big hearted novel about chosen family, unexpected friendship, and the stories we tell ourselves in order to survive. I think this book is everywhere. It's gonna be everywhere. I am looking at a copy of it now, which I wanted so badly to have already read. But anyway, I, I can't wait for this one. Also out today is The Devil's by Joe Abercrombie. This I am reading right now. I'm three quarters of the way through it, doing this on audio. For those of you who like a fantasy book, it is so fantastic and it is completely tickling that part of my psyche that loves a good fantasy with a big dollop of humor. This is about a group of. This is about a group of essentially monsters who have been hired by a very young pope to place a rightful princess on the throne and the journey of getting there. But when I say monsters, it's a vampire, it's a werewolf, it's an elf, and they're all so incredibly well drawn. It feels a little reminiscent to me of the show. The boys on Amazon. But it is so, so, so great, and apparently it's the first in a series, so I, I've never read a Joe Abercrombie book before, but it's truly a delight. So that's out today. Then for my Thriller fans, Alex North's new book, the Man Made of Smoke. I loved the Whisper Man, but weirdly haven't read anything else by Alex North. So really excited for this one. Then for all the nonfiction fans out there, Ron Chernow's, mark Twain is finally out a. Massive tome where biographer Ron Chernow illuminates the full fascinating and complex life of the writer along celebrated as the Father of American literature. So those are just some of the books out today that are interesting to me. Obviously there are plenty more, but check those ones out. Okay, so now onto today's author. I had such a wonderful conversation with Jemima Way for her new book, the Original Daughter She Is. Just so charming, smart, and compelling. Let me tell you a little bit about her and the book. It is a Good Morning America Book Club. Pick a New York Times editor's pick an Indie next pick. It debuted at number one on the Straits Time bestseller list and has been named a best book of Spring 2025 by Harper's Bazaar l Vogue Time Apple Books. And more. She is a 2025 National Book Foundation 535 Honoree, a 2022 for Stegner Fellow at Stanford University, a 2020 Philippe p Alba Fellow at Columbia University, and a Francine Ringle Award for new writers honoree. Her fiction has won the William Van Dyke short Story Prize and has been published in narrative Guernica. Joy Land among others. She's been nominated for the Pushkar Prize, recognized by the best of the net anthologies, and receive and received scholarships from Singapore's National Arts Council, Breadloaf Writers Conference, Suwanee Writers Conference, and Columbia University where she earned her MFA. She's currently a senior prose editor at the Massachusetts Review and divides her time between Singapore and New York City. So please enjoy this episode of. Behind the stack. I am so thrilled to be sitting down with Jemima Way today, whose brand new book. It surprised me in so many ways and I had no idea what I was getting into, so congratulations. It's just absolutely stunning.

Jemimah Wei:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on the show, Brad. And also I love seeing all the post-its flagging out of your book and. It was, it's very meaningful to me to hear readers, you know, hear that the book resonates with readers because I've been alone with this book for so long that. Doing her own thing in the world and meeting readers on their own terms is really incredible to me. So thank you so much for your kind words.

Brett Benner:

No, it's, it's such a cool thing because I have this conversation with writers a lot because you have, you've spent so much time, it's like with your baby, right? And suddenly to put it out in the world, like you said, meeting readers on their own terms, but it becomes a life of its own and it's such a different experience. And so I can't help but think it's. It's, it's exciting, but it's also a little scary just to watch it launch off. So usually I have to tell you, when I start my episodes, I always give a bio and talk about the author. But some of it I thought today I had to do it in front of you because I was so blown away. And like I said, before we started recording, I really went down this Jemima wormhole, which was really fun. And I was watching interviews and I was watching some of your acting. And, uh. As well as just reading a lot of your stuff. First of all, I have to tell you that Dan Michel Norris was on a few weeks ago and I reached out to her this week and I said, Jem is coming on this week. And she was like, I'm so obsessed with her. I'm so obsessed with her. And now I really wish,'cause I'm in LA, that I would've really wish I would've seen the panel with the both of you.

Jemimah Wei:

Oh, I love that, Michelle. Yeah.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. So if your ears were burning, should be speaking very highly of you, but you were the first Singaporean to be awarded the Stegner Fellowship. And for anyone who doesn't know, the Stegner Fellowship is awarded annually to five poets and five fiction writers, and the fellowships include a stipend and working with artists who meet weekly for workshops with the faculty of Stanford's writing program. And I'd love this quote from them and, and again, just. Speak so highly to you and your work. In awarding fellowships, we consider the quality of the candidate's creative work potential for growth and ability to contribute to and profit from our writing workshops. So. Congratulations on that, which I'm sure thank you was just an incredible experience.

Jemimah Wei:

Yeah.

Brett Benner:

You were also recently named by the National Book Foundation, one of their five under 35 for this book and for the National Book Foundation. It says they, they award this to a, a works of fiction that promises to leave a lasting impression on the literary landscape. So amazing. It's also been chosen as a May Indie next title, so congratulations on that as well. I want to go back before we get into the book and ask you, did you always know you wanted to be a writer? I.

Jemimah Wei:

Yeah, but my definition of that was a little different, I think from most, um, people I've spoken to because it's not that I don't have imposter syndrome, I do have that, but growing up in Singapore, just like the idea of being an author was so far away that it just didn't seem within the realm of possibility. So I, I was never plagued by the, oh, can I write? Because to me, writing is an action word. You're a writer because you're right. It's just like, it's my sit down. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like married to the reality of publishing for me. Only after I, you know, had been writing for a long time by myself in Singapore and then took the jump, I think to come to the US did I start thinking about, can I be a published author? So those are two different things, but since I was young, I just have always remembered making things up, like, and writing them down and kind of lying awake at night inventing what I'm gonna, what's. Story, I'm gonna act out the next day. And then harassing my poor parents because I would then wake up and I'm like, I'm this character now. And they're like, oh, here we go again.

Brett Benner:

You said that when you found out about the fellowship, that it was just such an affirmation for you as a, as a Singaporean girl who grew up being told that writing is an impractical child's dream.

Jemimah Wei:

Yeah. Um.

Brett Benner:

I love that. I, I love the universality of that because I feel like any kind of artist, any kind of person who, whether it's writing or acting or music, there is that kind of, um, thing that you're met with of, of, well that's fine, but what are you gonna do to make money? And, you know, what are you going to do to support yourself? So I know that you went to Columbia for your MFA, but, but bridge the gap for me.

Jemimah Wei:

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner:

Like, how did you get up to there? And I also have to ask, are you an only child?

Jemimah Wei:

No, I have two younger sisters.

Brett Benner:

Oh, wow. Are you guys close?

Jemimah Wei:

Very close. That's so, which fun. It's so fun because everybody keeps asking me, they're like, oh, what's like, you know, because this, it's a book about the Yeah, exactly. Everyone's like, what's the tea? And it's really hilarious to me because I wasn't thinking as much about sisters as much as I was about, I mean, I was thinking about sisters, but also about the idea of a child that's given away and who enters a family kind of not from birth, but down the road relationship is not quite the same as. My relationship with my sisters and whenever people are asking me about, oh, you know, like, um, it's a corelation. I always joke that because I have two younger sisters and in the book it's just two sisters. I'm like, I'm gonna lock my two sisters in room and let, let'em duke it out by the title of og.

Brett Benner:

What is the spread like age spread?

Jemimah Wei:

Oh, um, my. My, the next sister is three years younger than me, and my baby is seven years younger than me. Wow. Yeah. We're, we're close. We grew up together and you know, we, we were like living together very tightly, right up till I moved to the States. So up till adulthood and even up to now, you know, we are like always chatting. We do kind of like arrange our, now we're in different places, but we do try and arrange our years and our time around, like trying to be there for each other's big moments because it's difficult.'cause now I'm in the states. One of my sisters was in Australia for a long time. The other one works a job that makes her travel a lot. And so we do have to like be more intentional about trying to spend that time together. But you know, I'm really grateful to technology because we can, we're always yapping on like Telegram. Um, and this is something I feel strongly as an international writer, right? Because no matter where I am in the moment, I'm saying bye to somebody. I have great, great friends in New York. I have a very strong community in Singapore and I love a lot of my friends in the Bay Area. So every time I move, I feel like I am. Putting roots and then saying goodbye, putting down roots and saying goodbye. And so my relationship to technology, I think in terms of how grateful you for the ability to communicate and stay in people's lives. Um. Deep, deep, you know, I feel, I feel very, very, very, um, thankful for technology.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. It, I feel like it's one of the gifts of, of modern life, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, there's, uh, because I always feel like, you know, social media to me is its own thing, and I want to talk a little bit about that a little later mm-hmm. In regards to the book as well. But, but I do feel like. Exactly like you said, this ability to be able to reach out and connect with, with the people that we love and care about in ways that previously you never would've done, you would've been, you know, writing letters and waiting weeks Exactly. To get it or, or like having a bad phone connection or any of these things. I.

Jemimah Wei:

Exactly. And I do feel like people are always asking me for this like black or white answer when they say, what do you think about technology? And I'm like, what? What is that? To think about it, it's here. It's in our lives.

Brett Benner:

Yes.

Jemimah Wei:

Or people would be like, what do you feel about social media? And is it good for us? And I'm like, well, you know, there it's not a yes or no answer. Right.

Brett Benner:

Sure.'cause I know we're starting to dip in. Do you have like an elevator pitch for the book? Mm-hmm.

Jemimah Wei:

Yeah, I can. I can do it. Okay, let's go. The original daughter follows two sisters. One adopted growing up rapidly, modernizing super stressful and ultra competitive. Singapore navigating their relationship to, you know, independence and intimacy on their journey to fame fortune. What happens then is, you know. Where I come from, being really close to somebody means that you're all up in their business, even if it makes you wanna die. And so these sisters and those family have to navigate their relationship to love and boundaries, even when society and everything in the world seems to be designed to push them into a more individualistic path. And so I guess you just have to read the books to find out how that plays out.

Brett Benner:

Yes you do. Yes you do. Okay. Now I, you know, you had an MFA in Columbia, but I was like talking about bridging the gap between what happened before that, like in terms of schooling and what happened to get you there. Um, what was that about? And I have, but I have something I wanna ask you first. Start to interject that. How often do you go back to Singapore?

Jemimah Wei:

Oh, super often.

Brett Benner:

All the time.

Jemimah Wei:

Well, I, I try to as much as possible, because like I said earlier, you know, I, my relationships are very important to me and I, I feel like I have developed this great ambition for love in the last couple decades, and what it means to me is trying to be there for like my friends and family in person whenever I can. And that sometimes seems a little counterintuitive to the writer's life because so much of writing is solitary. Mm-hmm. But, and, and then also Singapore and New York are famously, is famously like the longest line in the world, right? So I'm perpetually jet like that. I'm always tired because it's always, it's always like 2:00 AM somewhere, but it is, I think the tax I am willing to pay on being like having those like rich and strong relationships. And being able to do that for as long as I can. Obviously, like practical considerations, like financial considerations and time considerations, and so how long I'll sustain this. Be able to be quite invested in both my life in the States and in Singapore. In fact, I was talking'cause it is something that's been troubling me for a long time. Like, you know, where do I set down roots and like make a home. I don't really have a place I'm base because as a writer you go wherever. The writing calls you like, and, and that's realistic, right? I would've never thought I would move to the Bay Area, but the GNA was like, we will have you come. And I was like, I will come. So, you know, if anyone listening to this podcast, you know, like wants to host a writeup or fellowship on your YouTube, please ping me. I am open. Right. And make it

Brett Benner:

an incredible location, by the way.

Jemimah Wei:

Oh yeah. I mean, totally. So. I think that really opened things up for me because I was like, it is true. Why am I thinking already? When you choose to be a writer, you are divorcing yourself from a, a kind of standardized path, right? You're divorcing yourself from any kind of traditional markers of success or timeline or anything like that. I. So then why keep to those traditional markets in every other part of your life, like you have already chosen a path that's slightly different. And so Chang Ray's conversation to me really made me think, okay, maybe I don't have to be like saying yes to one means saying no to another. Maybe I can try to be there for both parts of my life for as long as I can. And so that's what I'm trying to do for now. Yeah. I.

Brett Benner:

This time. Now I'm gonna sound like, like parental, and I don't mean it to come off that way, but I'm like you are. You are young enough to be able to do this right now too.

Jemimah Wei:

Yes.

Brett Benner:

And I find that sometimes with age becomes longing for something different. And you might find, listen, this is, I feel like this is the launch off, right? Mm-hmm. This is the moment when your rocket is taking off in such an incredible way and. The journey of where it's gonna take you, who knows? But I do find a lot of times as people begin to age, there becomes this longing for what was familiar and what was known, and some way, sometimes to go back to what we knew or a representation of what we knew, if that makes sense.

Jemimah Wei:

I do expect that that will happen in the years moving forward. But I think something that I've really tried to hold onto throughout this entire process of launching a book is I don't wanna wake up one day, maybe 10 years down the road and be like, those were the good days. I want to be like, this is the good day. I wanna recognize what I have when I have it. And as you said, I'm young, like famously under 35, and so I can do this now. You know, I can, my body can take it. It's just. I am like, you know, it is tiring and I don't have that many commitments where I am, you know, like tight. I don't have kids, I don't have, you know, so because of that, I do feel like for as long as I can keep it going, I would like the privilege of being there for my communities on both sides. And I think also, you know, if you, if you zoom out a little bit, I, I do think to myself growing up. What examples did I have? Not that many. And so it's not just my friends and family. I feel very invested in going back and being there for the, the burgeoning artists community in Singapore, the writers, emerging writers, like I'm a mentor with the Singapore Book Council. I try to do master classes and as many things as I can every time I'm back in Singapore because. There is a huge growing artist community there of writers. Fiction writers in a way that's very exciting to me. And I think that it can be very difficult for somebody from like an international writer to understand what publishing looks like or understand what it looks like to launch a book or what it looks like to build an artist career in a sustainable way. And so I do feel invested in that. I don't wanna just be like, okay, this is like just my life and I'm leaving. So I think that's part of why I do feel quite drawn to going back often.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. And kudos to you and like I said, you

Jemimah Wei:

are

Brett Benner:

young and you have it, so, so, so do it. Um, so much of the book is really, it's about ambition.

Jemimah Wei:

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner:

For both these sisters, Genevieve Yang, and, and now do you pronounce it Aaron or Aaron or how do you pronounce her name?

Jemimah Wei:

Oh, I pronounce it Aaron.

Brett Benner:

Aaron, a RIN. Mm-hmm. For our listeners and viewers, but ambition in very different ways. Right. And Jen's, I, I would love to talk about this because I'm personally unfamiliar with it, but there's this whole, the academic ambition, right. And this is the whole culturally like Singapore. Can you talk a little bit about, because I'm sure you went through this mm-hmm. Yourself, just what that was like mm-hmm. And what it was like for her. And she's incredibly driven to. To be the best.

Jemimah Wei:

Yeah. So that links a little bit to earlier when you asked me to fill in the gaps, which I keep forgetting to do'cause I keep getting distracted. That's okay. We kept

Brett Benner:

getting distracted. Sorry. That's my fault.

Jemimah Wei:

No, it's also my fault. I'm a yapper. Um, I understand. But yeah, so you know, I grew up in the Singaporean education system as it are my characters. It's extremely stressful because there is this idea that we are a really small country, right? And you have to be extremely excellent in order to survive on the global stage, which I think is something that. You know, has proven itself to a certain extent, like over the last couple decades with the different crisis. Like Singapore's narrative has always been, you have to be extremely excellent in order to survive because we have nothing else going for us. We're small, we have no natural resources. You know, all we have is our smarts and our r and d and our ability to like be really good at navigating international waters. And so you grew up with that, you know, like messaging all the time. And when you're growing up in Singapore, there are very few ways where you think to yourself, I can jump. Jump a class or like escape my circumstances. And one of that is this idea of like a meritocratic academic society where if you do extremely well, maybe you could get like a scholarship to could elevate you that could then there are like very specific paths that you could really track back. And it's very common for young people to be like, all right, these are my dreams, goals, these are the way I'm gonna get it. These are the scholarships and programs I wanna get into, and therefore I'm gonna like optimize every single part of my life. So that I become the ultimate candidate for this. And so it's very common to go to school, go to like different kinds of tuition or enrichment classes, develop all kinds of very specific hobbies that could then get you into a school a different way. So in with, instead of true results, you could get into dragon boating or like singing or like band, you know, by being like the best. Everything that you can be. So the correlation to my personal life is I'm a bit of a nerd. Like I've always left school. I don't have that. I don't have that. Like, oh, I don't wanna go to school. I was like, oh wow. Look at how fun this is. Every day. I gotta go hang out my friends and learn new things. So no problem there, you know, nobody had to force me to go to school, but. It was really stressful and for me, I was really big on the idea of a backup plan, so I was terrified that I wouldn't do well in school because we are graded on a bell curve, which is something I talk very briefly about in the book, which means your grades are not an objective grade, they're relative grade. So you get an A, if you are a top like 10%, that's not a number grade. So I could get 99 upon hundred and still not get an A because you know, like everybody else got. A hundred to 100. So that means that you are constantly in competition and it is, I think, very at the forefront of a lot of students' minds. And so for me, I just developed like extremely niche hobbies. Like I was a soprano growing up and I got into my junior college through singing. I was straight up like I auditioned outside of like my grades. And so I was a direct school admission student, so that if I didn't do well enough to pure, uh, o level results, I could get into my voice. And that is what I did. I. People do that through all kinds of ways. And uh, for me, choosing choir was like the obvious choice because you don't need to buy an instrument. It's very cost efficient. You just need your voice. You have to like sing in a corner and train that all day long. So you have all this kind of like training, um, and I. The, the like golden standard is from that generation. You know, my Singapore's a very young country. We are turning 60 years here, so it's like three generations of people and the previous generations with this generation. Everybody says the same thing. Get yourself to university.'cause once you get there, once you have a college degree, you can get a job. Because that was true of a generation ago. It's not true anymore. Now everybody has a college degree and it's so hard to get a job. The comp, the job market's so competitive, but growing up you didn't think that, you just thought to yourself it would be worse without a degree. So everybody's like busting their ass to get to college and people have mental breakdowns. It's crazy. Like I know so many people who just did not survive the academic system, who. Either had like mental breakdowns or like, you know, just like clips outta the system or, or, or worse. And, and so to me that was always something that I, I don't think you could write a book about growing up in Singapore without touching on the educational system then. I mean, that would just be magical realism because they're not like, what isn't stressed, you know, that's. Oh yeah. So I was like, you know, this has to make it in. And it turned out to be very rich material for me. But I think that sense of moving out of an institutionalized system is very, you know, unmooring and very destabilizing for a lot of people who are grown in this system.'cause you grow with this trellis, right, of like grades and like rubrics and metrics, and then you exit into the real world and you're like, the real world doesn't give a shit. Like, all right, you got like. A for like math, uh, good. Or you, so can you quote this or not? And so a lot of people then become very disillusioned and kind of lost and then existentially lost and depressed. And then the bills don't stop coming.'cause once you're an adult, all the bills kick in. And then so sure you are like, okay, now I need to find a job. Immediately. I need to make decisions that are not really driven by the kind of life I wanna lead, but driven by extremely pragmatic decisions because we are, uh, also like a very community based. Society, you know, we, it's quite common to live at home until you get married. It's not like in America where people tend to move outta 18 for college. And I think that's because we're a small country. Like there's no real need to move anywhere. Like you can get everywhere from one end of the country to the other, but like maximum 45 minutes by car. So where you gonna go? You know, like rent is expensive since someone is in high demand. And so what's the

Brett Benner:

population?

Jemimah Wei:

Well, I six.

Brett Benner:

Wow.

Jemimah Wei:

Yeah, we're super well populated, which is why all buildings like grow upwards. So we have like very high buildings. Yeah. If you live in a house that just has one story, like, like a cartoon house, that's like a, a real sign of wealth.'cause you didn't have to go upwards. Yeah.

Brett Benner:

Interesting. I didn't, but I didn't realize there were so many people in that concentrated area.'cause I thought you were gonna be like, oh, well it's, you know, that's, that's amazing.

Jemimah Wei:

But not only is it like. Extremely overpopulated, right? It's a tiny society. And so there is a sense that you will want to care for your parents, like the Asian generation. And so yeah, you'll then, you'll make decisions moving forward based on what you want anymore. You make it based on how can I support my family? How can I, how can I be the best person in my community as well? Um. I, I don't know, like at a young age that can be a lot of self-inflicted and community inflicted pressure. That is not deliberate pressure, but it, it exists. It's like atmospheric pressure. And also like this is in the book as well, but because everybody knows everybody, you know, there's no seven degrees of separation in Singapore, it's like two degrees or three degrees. So there is a sense really that there, you can't make a misstep, um, because it's very hard to climb back on the bandwagon if you're falling behind. And also that, you know, there's no true sense of total anonymity or. And I think that is something that really shapes my character's decisions moving forward in different ways.

Brett Benner:

Well, and I'm thinking about their, their living arrangements because, you know, they, they live in this house with the parents and then the grandmother at the start of it. It's a very small area. It's, and literally there's no privacy for any of them. I'm wondering, going back, do you feel that, in terms of the school system, in terms of those pressures, do you think that that's,'cause we should also clarify that this is set in the nineties in the beginning, but do you think that some of that's changed?

Jemimah Wei:

Yeah, I think they're trying to change, so the book starts in 1995, and I think back then it was like. Really, really, really stressful. And there were repercussions, right? Like people, there were all these studies. I think there was this like regional study. It was like, Singaporeans are really unhappy. And then so the government got stressed and they were like, we are unhappy. We're not unhappy. We're really happy actually. And so they did. They did recognize that. It's not sustainable for people to be constantly having like breakdowns how stress they are. And so there are all these things implemented to try and have like more rest, a more balanced lifestyle or to move away from grades, like the grading system to move away from awards. So when, like I mentioned earlier, I used to be a soprano. The, the competition for that, the highest award, you get goal with honors and now they don't do that anymore. They just, it's like, you know, it used to be bronze, silver, gold, gold with honors and they don't do it anymore because they don't want to have like an award system type to it. They moved it away from that. But I do think that there's. Like radical systemic change. People still are aware of those competitive elements and the way they evaluate, you know, who they take in for their internships, the way they take in, who, who they taken for their jobs still ends up coming down to like the sense of competency, which is very, very, very highly valued in Singapore. I, I do think we are kind of famous for it. It is the Singaporean brand. You're super efficient, super responsible, super productive, and just like super competent. And people aren't born that we, they're kind of like meat that we, yeah. Yeah.

Brett Benner:

Well, and this is interesting'cause it segues almost into Aaron mm-hmm. In terms of born and made. Um, because this trajectory of her character is so fascinating because this is not a spoiler and we don't, I don't do spoilers on said, but it's not a spoiler in that she begins to become. Famous ultimately as an actress, but in the beginning as a, like a social media personality. And this whole thing fascinated me. First of all, I have to back up with you a little bit because as I was, as I was reading the book and then diving into you, and all of a sudden I was watching you, you know, do something for Lineage on one of your, you know, a photography thing. So I, I wanted to ask you how that started for you in terms of becoming involved in social media and, and, and capitalizing on it.

Jemimah Wei:

I was kind of scouted. And then I started doing a reality TV show, and this was like, I think very, very early days. Um, I think, I think YouTube maybe wasn't like a massive thing yet. I mean, we were still flirting with the internet back then. It wasn't, it wasn't on YouTube, it was on like a, a different like TV network online. And later I made a transition to YouTube and I did that for, I wanna say a good eight years. So I think I. I know. Yeah, so I did, I specialize in like travel and reality and so I did that, bought a network. I did a couple of travel shows. I moved into doing some producing and directing writing scripts that I was interested in, and I do feel like that opened up a whole different life for me. I, I had a really, I wanna say blessed experience. I was scouted by a woman. I had very strong female mentors. I immediately, when I started, was taken under the wing of some veteran kind of like personalities or TV host in Singapore. And so I kind of always felt protected and prepared going into this. And even then it was challenging, you know, to suddenly be ultra perceived from a young age. I was, I've always been extremely fascinated by this because I feel like. Back then there was a sense of potential and real like excitement around where this industry could go. You know, there is this sense that. To be like a traditional celebrity, to be an actress or, um, you know, a a like a theater actress or a TV actress. You need to have certain things in place, or you need to be extremely good looking or unique looking in a very polished way. You need to have certain things set up in life. And then to have like other kinds of careers, you need to have like privilege of background, of economic fluidity, of like certain, like academic, you know, merits. With the internet, it almost felt like you just had to be really, really interested in something. Like you could be like, I fucking love shoe laces. Like I'm obsessed with shoe laces. There are like two 50 of shoe laces, right? And if you were just limited to the 30 people in your classroom, they would be like, oh my God, what a freak. Like who cares about, who cares about shoe laser wear Velcro. But you go on the internet, you're like, I love shoe laser on Tumblr and like. 2000 people will be like, I also love shoe laces. And one person's in France, one person's in Vietnam, one person's in New York, like, you know? And suddenly there's this way to like a amass. A great sense of like, I could have a niche. I could have a niche, and all I needed is an internet connection and a voice and an opinion on something. And right now, you know, I think we have moved past that and we are now in the center. There's this huge skepticism towards anything see online. And I definitely get that. I feel like it's become so saturated with. External branding and investment, because I, I definitely think that that was like a natural development because anytime there's a space with eyeballs, the brands come in. They're like, all right, how can we capitalize this on this? And there's just a function of living in a hyper capitalistic society. But you have like a couple options, right? You can like, you row the whole thing and be like, like Henry David Toro, and be like, I wanna live in the woods. Like, I don't wanna live in this society. Oh, you can be like, this is a life I have. What can I do? To survive in this life. And I think that is like something that is extremely Singaporean as well. Like the sense of like how do we survive, how do we adapt and what does resilience look like? And I think that looks different for everybody. So for the girls in the boat, one way they think they can move classes or move out of their life circumstances is to tap on this really new industry and see like where it can take them. So they, they try and optimize it. They try to optimize every other part of their lives to varying ends and yeah. So that's my, that's my little Ted talk.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. No, you're, you're so right. But it's so funny because it's just the way that so much of this is almost built into society's DNA. I have a, you know, I have two kids. My son is older, he is 21, my daughter is a senior. But to watch this effect of the social media and the influencers on her in particular has been so incredibly fascinating and. You know, beyond the obvious, which I'm gonna say, which was for many young girls in America, it's the Kardashians, right? That's some of what their launch off point into what they're seeing. For better or for worse, I. There's a quote from the book that says, and I loved this, it says, relatability wasn't as revered as pure talent was the condemning of commercialization of personality as an intellectual failing, which of course, I always think of that in terms of when I'm first railing against the Kardashians in the beginning. And I was like, you know, I know that skims exists now. Right? I know that. I know that. The, the, they have a makeup line, but they wouldn't have had that previously. And you have to understand that it came from

Jemimah Wei:

something else. It's interesting because I do think that in the very early days, the people who first recognized that image, your control over your own image is a kind of currency, did have first move advantage. You know, they did understand that it's not, the internet is in a freewheeling place where you can be yourself Totally. What goes on the internet, kind of on the internet. It's like there are, you have to be careful going in. And I think for me, I, I grew up without very much media. Like I didn't, I don't think I had a TV until like I was a little older. I basically just like read books as a kid and never really had like a movie or TV watching habit. And so

Brett Benner:

is that what, is that because of your parents' influence or is that just because of your own interest?

Jemimah Wei:

Uh, I kind of combination of both. I think we just had no money, so.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. Okay.

Jemimah Wei:

Like, you know, going to the movies was expensive and, um. It was just like what was available to us. Right. So when I was growing up, I, I think we didn't have a tv'cause I don't have a memory of a TV until I was, until my second sister was born. Then I remember Deb being a TV when she was a little older, but growing up I just never watched it. And so I would just read books that, um, family, friends, like passed down. Mm-hmm. That was very much just like the way I patched things together, you know? Uh, friends, you know, my parents' friends or like church people, when their kids grew up, grew out their clothes, they would pass it down to me. And then when I grew out up, I'll pass it down to somebody else. Um, you know, like books, you know, whatever people had grown out of, they would just pass it down. I would just read whatever. So I read a lot of really inappropriate stuff because they didn't bet. They just gave it, yeah, wholesale. So I just read everything I could get my hands on. And so because of that, I didn't, I actually didn't grow up with like, the sense of what the media was in my head, like media images. And so I do feel like I have a slight. I feel I've adapted to it, but I, I do have a slightly like, uh, strange relationship with it. I think there's a sense of like otherness, I feel with this idea of like, it, like you and the mirror of yourself because I, I do see it too. I see now like a lot of people are like growing up in this generation, are living constantly making micro adjustments. To their everyday behavior, almost subconsciously, because growing up with social media, instead of having it come into your life halfway through, it's almost like having this mirror installed in front of you at all times, and so you're not just. Even if there's no audience, even if the audience is just yourself, you are viewing yourself as you, as an audience would. And so you're constantly like adjusting yourself or like saying something and then thinking, taking a about and revising it and coming out with a smarter, sharper, wittier version. Almost like a constant rehearsal for what it would be like to be out in public. And I think the real skill now, I mean, so maybe like 10 years ago, the real school is realizing that your control of your image is a currency. I think now what it is, is realizing that that. It's a compartmentalized and separate version of your life, and there is a private life that you must nurture and that you must have that has to be just for you. Otherwise, very quickly, our identity or our sense of self becomes dispersed because we are giving parts of it to other people all the time for the external feedback. And I don't know if that's sustainable.

Brett Benner:

No, and it's interesting because I've said that the whole idea of celebrity has changed so much because of social media, because you know, when I grew up. Celebrities were, and this is a conversation again I've had with my daughter because if I say celebrity to her, she will list four, five different YouTube personalities that she is obsessed with. But I was explaining to her when, you know, when I was young, a celebrity was Meryl Streep. It was Tom Cruise, it was the, the movie stars, the people you went into a dark theater and saw they were the people you watched on tv. But. I think social media has done is kind of pulled a lot of those walls down and made so many people accessible in our own minds to think like, well, I could possibly speaking for myself now, I could possibly date Pedro Pascal, but it's. Suddenly and, and, and, but it's removed. So many of those barriers that what we used to think of as celebrities and who we used to think of as quote unquote movie stars, they aren't anymore. So again, it speaks to what you're saying about finding this way to separate a public with a private thing and. Movie stars in particular, or celebrities, they were very private. You didn't know anything about their personal lives unless a PR person was putting a statement out or something about their marriage or their divorce or something to that effect, but you didn't know the day to day. Well, now they're coming out of a Costco. And their sweatpants looking like hell about to, you know, load in their toilet paper. We're, we're getting access to people in unprecedented ways we never have before. And it's, it's breaking it all down. And at the same time, taking people who have learned how to, like you said, understand their currency but might not necessarily have a skill to back it up, but have something that is appealing to people and people want to watch and brands. Understand immediately, well, let's use this person to capitalize.

Jemimah Wei:

Mm-hmm. I think it's like very widely pared, but social media does breed a lot of resentment because it brings, yeah. Competitiveness and comparison into your pocket. And I do think the whole like idea of relatability is a double H sword. Right? You are so relatable. That's why people love you. On the flip side of that, you're so relatable. People are like, well, we are the same. So why you and not me? And I think that's something one of the girls like really has to balance like that navigation with public, like public sentiment and how to dance around that. Because then it also becomes a thing where there's, you know, there are certain things she can no longer say in wider circles, but that character is very private to begin with. She really only like confides in like two or three people like her family, um, and does not like form strong relationships outside of that. That's like a sense of ness that I, that I find common, you know, for people in the industry.

Brett Benner:

I'm wondering if you found, when you were writing this, and I know that, you know, people always wanna find parallels between, you know, fiction and fact.

Jemimah Wei:

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner:

Um, but as I went through the book, I couldn't help but wonder sometimes if Genevieve and Aaron were this merging of parts of you. This combination. I kept thinking. Are these parts of Jemima that are coming together anyway?

Jemimah Wei:

Well, which question, which answer would entice, would abide the vote more? We just go that answer.

Brett Benner:

That is spoken like a, like a true social media influencer.

Jemimah Wei:

Well, okay, so more seriously. Right. I do think that for artists, your work grows out of your sensibility. And so it would be disingenuous to be like, well, I wrote this book about like, uh, a dolphin growing up off the coast of America and that's nothing to do with my entire life. You know? So even that, even that would. A sensibility that is born of the artist's vision. Sure. And so I do think that everything in this book and everything I've ever written right, that's boom. From that same sensibility that I have like worked very hard to, you know, like nourish and grow. And so yeah, I guess, I guess maybe like yes and no, that would be. It would be a too, it would be too boring if the character's kind of like totally correlated with my own experiences because I had like a really, you know, my life is like. Objectively not that interesting. And so I had to like really navigate a lot of things in the story to like really make it more exciting, like story-wise. And I think that's one of the privileges of art, right? You are able to filter like a perspective or a sensibility through the lens of these characters or these stories that you can then kind of like. Dilute or intensify in order to bring a point across or to bring a story across. And that, I guess, is what I was trying to do through the, through the book. But I think to your question of like readers trying to find correlational points, I definitely get that and I understand why there's that sense. I have that sense too when I read other people's work or I watch like films and I just think to myself, you know, there is a, a lot of debut writers have this fear that you write a book and people are gonna be like, they're gonna think it's me. So. That is like a very valid fear, I think. But my question then is, is that fear? I mean, people are always gonna feel that way. So is that fear large enough to then override? The other thing, the other fear that I have, and the other fear that I have, is that there are not that many Singaporean writers. There are, there's a growing number, but I can still count them on like one hand or like two hands. And so. If I don't write an ultra local story with very specific things about the thing about it, I know and I love, and that I process like through a specific lens and a contemporary period in our history, people, it's not gonna make it into literary canon. It's not gonna make it into something that I can hold and that, um, I can hold as an objective. Like, like, like manifested reality, like a physical object when the country and the world changes so fast and then we are just gonna be left with the memories of. You know, like our memory's unreliable. We are subject to nostalgia, to sentimentality, and it's not that books are not that thing, but you know, I work the hardest that I can to make this like. Really as true as possible to the lives of these characters that I've created. And I've put in stuff that's very specific to things that I love. Like I put my friend's, parents', businesses, names in there. I named the junior college after my husband. I was like, this is not a real school. I just named it after him. I was like, I want, I want this to go down in history. I put in like. You know, just like little Easter eggs for my friends and my family in there that they would read and be like, oh, that's my, that's my neighborhood aunt. That's my mom's like noodle shop. You know? And that was important to me because I don't think there's like an intellectual purity to being like, I invented everything. There is like no correlation in reality. And I think that is kind of like sometimes a defensive fear against people then accusing you of having no imagination, which to me is a moot, it's a moot point. Like I don't, that's not a real argument. And so. That fear of like having people think, oh, is this your life? It's not great enough to overcome the fear that we would then have these stories lost to history. And when you're from a small country, when you are so far from being part of the global majority and publishing, you think to yourself, if you don't write these stories, the stories of your country and of your history are gonna be the stories other people tell of you. And I don't want that. That's a worst fear that people thinking this might be about her life. I mean, people can have whatever opinions they want. I don't mind. They just have to buy the book, which then entitle them to have any opinion they want. They don't have to tell me those opinions. They can just have them as long as they buy the beautiful hot cover that has just come in. So

Brett Benner:

what did, what did somebody say? I think it was, um, uh, to Lula banked once said, well, I don't care what they're saying about me, as long as they're saying it about me. And, um, and it's a little bit of that. I said earlier at the very start of this, and it's kind of a great way to bookend because it surprised me in so many ways. I don't know what I was originally thinking. Well, I will say this. I was originally thinking, and please, I hope you can hear this without, I don't mean anything, but when I first saw it, I was like, mm-hmm. Will this be the chit? That's what I thought, and I got into it and it couldn't have been further from that. And I found myself reading this so slowly because I didn't want it to end. And I don't always find that, and especially when I'm reading for, say even for the podcast and I'm just trying to get through a lot of stuff I. But I put myself against some kind of weird deadline.'cause I was like, I know I had to finish the book before I sat down with you, and yet I didn't want to go through this quickly because A, the writing was so beautiful, like as evidenced by my tabs. I just was marking so much. But also I was so drawn to these two women and this story that I really didn't want it to find out what was going to be. Stop, so,

Jemimah Wei:

oh,

Brett Benner:

anyway.

Jemimah Wei:

Thank you. I mean, so firstly, I would never take offense to people thinking it's. Chick lit or whatever of that genre means because I grew up reading a lot of chick lit, you know, I feel like, and I read some of

Brett Benner:

it too. Yeah. I mean,

Jemimah Wei:

shopaholic series, anybody. So like any entry into reading to me is a good entry. You know, I don't care how people get into reading as long as they do. And so, you know, love it. Would never feel any type of way about it. Um, but number two, like, you know, I just, that that response means so much to me. I feel like it was Jess Walter who in his essay in the time of Galley slaves, talks about this, where the writer's greatest material. On and off the page is time and when people, I. Describe how a book affects'em or like your work affects'em. It is also a way of like controlling time because they either like go, oh, I read it so quickly I couldn't get out of it. Like, you know, I couldn't put it down, which is a kind of controlling reader's time, or I didn't want it to end, which is a way of wanting to live in time. And so that relationship with time is something that I am super like conscious of, you know, as a writer because, because I, I will like progresses and renovate so fast. That we, we live in a time of great velocity. I think. I think there is like a real whiplash to, to, to, to being in the world, which I don't think we are humanly equipped to live. Like, you know, I just don't think that ourselves are equipped to live at this pace. And so a lot of that like kind of informed the way I framed and, um, work through the book. But now like, you know, hearing the way readers respond to it with their own like relationship two time, it, it just like, it means so much to me. I.

Brett Benner:

So what's next? Do you know? And if you don't wanna talk about it, maybe you can't or don't know yet, that's fine. But I'm so curious. I saw somewhere I thought where you were working on some short stories.

Jemimah Wei:

Yeah, I mean, my answer changes every day depending on when you've caught me. Like if you caught me just woke up from a nap, I'm in a really good mood. I'm like, do, I'm working on five things. Uh, and if you catch you on a bed riding day, like I'm working on nothing. But so I am, I do know what the next few books are gonna look like. I have known, I think for a while, and it's just about which one is catching. So I'm working on several projects and I think part of like writing, sort of seeing how far you go with each one before they start to feel like take on their own shape and do their own thing Interesting. And gain their own like acceleration. But yeah, there's like some things I'm working on and. Like mainly I think I'm just saturated in a sense of like relief because when you work on the debut for so long, like, so this book, you know, I started writing in 2014 when it comes out this year is 2025. It would've been 11 years since I wrote the first word, which is nuts. And if the next one takes 11 years, I'm just gonna fall down and perish. But you know, like I do feel like, I do feel like you as an artist. Prior to releasing your first piece of work, your artistic identity can feel so codependent with this one debut, right? It can feel like if it doesn't, if you don't finish the book, if this book isn't everything that you tried to do with it ambitiously, like artistically, you, you, you would've failed as an artist or you would not be the artist you think you are. And I feel like finishing the book and having it leave my hands and go into the publisher's hands, the copy editor, the cover designer, readers, sales reps, everything, you know, bookstore. That has been really amazing for me because it just feels. I, I have this new freedom to go in whatever direction I want to for my art. I, I would never have to be like, am I a writer? Because, you know, like coming to your, I mean, we're book ending this, right? Coming to your first ever question. Yeah. I'm a writer. I, you know, the evidence. It's out there. So yeah. You know, um, there, there, there is like, I, I don't have that sense anymore of, you know, am I a writer? Maybe my new sense, my new question is, what kind of writer do I wanna be moving forward? What kind of art do I wanna make? What kind of questions do I wanna interrogate? And I do know what my concerns are broadly, and I think it's about finding the perfect shape for them. And so I've made these plans with this book, I've started writing different projects and I think it's, and I think one great thing I've learned about, I. Writing this book is that books take a really long time, so I'm trying to teach myself to be patient and not be like, well, we have to have a draft within the year, which is not the kind of like writer I think I am anyway. I don't think I can produce like one book a year, and so I'm just, you know, trying to take it easy and trying to show up for the book where I can, because I feel very much like a, like a vaguely affectionate. Mom where I've like made this first born daughter and she's now like going off into the world and doing her thing and I feel like, great, good job. It's like that meme of that Amy Polar, I think with the video camera thing you're doing amazing, sweetie. Keep it up. I feel like that's me. I'm like, you are amazing. You know, you, you are a real book. You are a real girl out in the world. I'm so happy for you and whatever I can control. Like, you know, if they're like. Come and do this event or come and like talk to this book club. I would totally do it'cause I wanna show up for my first born, but I don't think that I can control anything else about that. You know how readers take it. Who the who, you know, her readers are who she finally resonates with. All of that is outta my control and does not objectively change anything in the book. The book that I've written is always gonna be the book. The words are always gonna be the same words. And so the reception is like a different part of the book's life. That is not really my. Kind of my business I think.

Brett Benner:

Interesting. Yeah.

Jemimah Wei:

And so, yeah, that like has been really wonderful because then I can, I feel like I can like feel very affectionate to this book going out and then work on the next one, turn my attention to my children who need more attention.'cause they're information.

Brett Benner:

Exactly. I Exactly. I love, I love that. And, and, and find out which one of your children is the most ambitious towards their. Creator.

Jemimah Wei:

Mm-hmm. And

Brett Benner:

needs. And needs it first. Well, I think she's just beautiful and I'm so excited to see what happens with both her and you. I mean, again, I. I feel so lucky and privileged to be sitting with you today.'cause this is really, it's really beyond a spectacular debut. It's just a spectacular book to me. So congratulations on all of it. I'm, I'm, uh, thrilled for you.

Jemimah Wei:

Oh, thank you so, so, so much. Like, this is so lovely and hearing you talk about the book, really, it's just, I, I, it's hard for me to put into words, which is ironic, but I just do feel like the feeling's too big for me because I get it. Yeah. It's um. For the longest time, just finishing the book was the dream. So everything beyond that, it's beyond my wildest dreams already. Um, it's, it's hard to step into that feeling. I think

Brett Benner:

I'm, I'm so happy this book is out there. I'm so happy for people to experience you, I should say, and your work, and I just think it's great. So. Congratulations.

Jemimah Wei:

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Brett Benner:

Thank you again, Jemima. And if you like these conversations and like what you're hearing, please consider liking and subscribing to the podcast. And another thing that would be incredibly helpful, if you have the time, if you could leave a review on one of your podcast platforms of choice, that in particular is really, really helpful and I would really, really appreciate it. Have a good week everyone, and I will. See you next week.