Milo Todd, The Lilac People

In this episode Brett sits down with Milo Todd to talk about his debut book, "The Lilac People". They discuss Berlin in the 30s before the ascension of Hitler, The Institute for Sexual Science, Hitler's enemy number one, and the explanation of what was known as a transvestite card. 

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https://www.instagram.com/todd_milo/

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack. It's one of these big publishing days. There seems to be, we're on a roll of a lot of them now as we gear up into the summer, and there's a couple books I wanted to talk about before we get into today's conversation. The first is the Jenna Pick of the Month, which is the names by Florence Knapp. This has gotten so much pre-publication Buzz, a kind of sliding doors. that deals with a person's name. Another big book that is out today that, I was hoping to have read already and I have not, is the new Wally Lamb book. The river is waiting. I'm sure it's going to contain lots of pathos and tragedy and ultimately redemption. I'm really, really excited for that one though. Another Biggie is My Friends by Frederick Bachman. Do you know I've never read any Frederick Bachman and I have Beartown because people seem to be so crazy about that. But this one is kind of really calling to me. It says it's an unforgettably, funny, deeply moving tale of four teenagers who friendship creates a bond so powerful that it changes a complete stranger's life 25 years later. So I'm definitely gonna be checking this out. Also out today is the Manner of Dreams by Christina Lee, which is described as American Gothic meets the seven husbands of Evelyn Hugo, about the secrets that lion weight and the crumbling mansion of a former Hollywood starlet and the intertwined fates of the two families fighting to inherit it. So that sounds really interesting. Then there's an anthology out today called Edge of the World, an Anthology of Queer Travel writings. That's an inclusive lgbtq plus travel anthology that explores what it means to be a queer person moving through the world with contributors like Alexander Chi, Edward White, Daisy Hernandez. Den, Michelle Norris, Garrett Conley, Genevieve Hudson. So this looks really cool. And that's out today as well. And then the last book I wanna give a shout out today is by debut author Jemima Wei. It's called The Original Daughter. In this dazzling debut, Stagner fellow Jemima Way explores the formation and dissolution of family bonds and his story of ambition and sisterhood in turn of the Millennium Singapore. I absolutely loved this book, and Jemima was just named, one of five authors under 35, fiction writers whose work promises to leave a lasting impression on the literary landscape from the National Book Foundation. All this to say also Jemima will be my guest next week on Behind the Stack, so look for that as well. But let us get on to today's author. today I'm sitting down with Milo Todd, who. Has written this incredible book called The Lilac People. I was first drawn to this book because of its cover, which is so incredible. It's been getting amazing pre-publication reviews. The book came out last week. it had gotten incredible pre-publication reviews. I read this and was completely blown away, and I have to say. Of all the conversations I've had so far on this podcast, this right now is probably one of the most pertinent And unfortunately timely books for what's happening in the United States at this moment. especially in regards to trans people, but frankly all marginalized groups. It's a really interesting conversation and frankly, I felt just fortunate to be able to have this discussion. a little bit about Milo. He is the CO EIC at Fog Lifter Journal runs the Queer Writer Newsletter and teaches creative writing in history primarily to queer and trans adults. He's received awards, accolades, and fellowships from such places as Lambda Literary Tin House, pitch Wars, grub Street, Monson Arts, and the Massachusetts Cultural Council. and this is his literary debut. So please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I'm thrilled to be sitting down today with Milo Todd, whose new book The Lilac People is just, it's so beautiful. I, I was, I was so incredibly moved by it and it feels beyond timely and, and necessary. So thank you so much for or for sitting down with me today.

Milo Todd: 4:26

Oh, absolutely. And again, I'm really, really happy to be here. Thanks for getting in touch and all that lovely stuff, Brett. And yeah. Was not. Intended to be timely, but here we are. So, yeah.

Brett Benner: 4:40

Yeah. You know, I remember when I first saw this, first of all, for our listeners, this cover is so gorgeous. I mean, it's gorgeous, which was one of the first things that, that drew me in. Can you talk for just a moment about the artist who did the cover?

Milo Todd: 4:54

Sure. Absolutely. So the cover artist, I, I, well, I remember they gave me a few different options to choose from and, I saw this one and was like, oh, absolutely have to have this cover. It's wonderful. And so the cover designer I actually, I also have my, in my acknowledgements which is Ana Yasmin and just I thought did fantastic work on this cover, really embodied what the book was all about. I never. I never really imagined what my cover would look like. Mm. But when I saw this, I was like, Ooh. Like that's just, it's, I, I, I, you know, and maybe everyone says this about their own cover, but I was like, this is beautiful. Like, this is just, and it really embodies what the book is about. And I feel also really you know, you first, I like to think, you know, a reader will first see the cover and be like, oh, that's beautiful. And then when they finish the book and look at the cover again, they're like, there's a lot more happening in this cover. Sure. Like after the fact with the context. And I just, I adore this cover.

Brett Benner: 5:53

Yeah, no, it's beautiful. And for our listeners, it almost looks like a watercolor of a man standing in a wheat field. Mm-hmm. Kind of putting his hands out, but the colors and the clouds and it's beautiful. But also just the texture of the cover is so amazing as well. Yeah. And what she's done with. With texture and it's really stunning. You know, this is truly a case where you can judge a book by its cover.

Milo Todd: 6:15

Well, thank you. I, I, I can take no credit obviously for the cover itself, but I do think they did a great job with that cover. I.

Brett Benner: 6:22

Yeah. They really did. So for our listeners, do you have an elevator pitch of the book? Oh,

Milo Todd: 6:28

sure. So the elevator pitch is essentially this. What we would now call a trans man relinquish his freedoms of pre-war Berlin, meaning pre-World War ii. And he first survives the Nazis by hiding in plain sight, and then has to survive the Allied forces for reasons that I'm sure we'll get into today while we talk. Right? And he, he needs to protect, you know, his, his his loved ones from, from this, this new, this new threat, unfortunately.

Brett Benner: 6:59

Yeah. And so the action moves from roughly 19 31, 32, and then 19. Is it 1945? Am I correct? Yeah,

Milo Todd: 7:06

yeah. 1932 is like the quote unquote past storyline timeline there. And then 1945 is the, the more quote unquote present timeline because it's just before Hitler came to power and then just a week or so after the war ended for Germany.

Brett Benner: 7:23

Yeah. And so the, the obvious question. That begs to be asked is, you know, what inspired this for you? How did you go down this kind of rabbit hole? Because it really is a rabbit hole. And I have to say, one of the things that the book does is, I found myself finding out so many things I didn't. No. Mm-hmm. And it was interesting going in and reading people's comments about reviews of the book, and so many people don't know parts of this history, which is another reason why I think that the book has such particular value beyond being just a great story. But yeah. What started this for you?

Milo Todd: 7:56

Yeah. Well, th again, you know, thank you for the, for the kind words. And all of that. I've been really, really grateful for the response. This book has gotten so far, really grateful for it. And so the origin story was back in, I wanna say maybe 20 16, 20 17, something like that. And I, back when social media was not the cesspool that it is now, I was like, you know, going through whatever, and I was scrolling through something, my feed on somewhere, and I don't even remember who posted this. I think it was just a stranger out in the world. So whoever that was. Thank you very much, stranger. So I was scrolling through and just saw this little like meme like post that just said something like, do you know or did you know that when the Allied forces came to liberate the camps, the concentration camps. That they let everyone go except for the queer and trans people, and they put them in jail instead for the crime of being queer and trans. And so I'm looking at this and I'm like, that can't be true. Like that can't be true. And me being me, I looked it up and it was true, and that just broke open that whole. Just like, he's like just went into that rabbit hole and I was just like, I need to find out more about this. What the heck? And I just started uncovering more and more and more and more stuff. And that in some ways I feel the book kind of wrote itself. I was like, all this is true stuff. So I just kind of put a storyline to it. And yeah, that's the short version. That's the origin story. It was a meme. On social media.

Brett Benner: 9:23

And then how long did it take you to write? Like when did you start the actual writing of it?

Milo Todd: 9:27

Yeah, so the whole process I, I really wanted this to be as accurate of a book as possible. So a lot of the time actually went into the research and I wanna say I, among other things, I had to learn German. All right. And if there's, if there's one thing, I do not regret this book, I'm so proud that I finished this book, but if there's one thing President Milo would go back in time for, for past Milo, it's just to slap him at least once in the face to be like, in what universe? You're like, yeah, I'll learn German. Okay. Like it was, you know, I don't regret it, but I was like, oh my God, what were you thinking? But it was so important to me and I really wanted, you know. As an English speaking person in the United States, really wanted to know more about this history. So anyway, so I wanna say the research and the outlining of the book itself, I wanna say maybe three years, something like that, really committed to. I'm also very big on planning my books before I write them.'cause the last thing I ever wanna do is write a whole book and then find out something factually is wrong and I have to rip the entire book apart, you know? Yeah, that's a big nightmare for me. So anyway, so a lot of it was planning, outlining all the research for maybe, I wanna say like three years or so, the rough draft. I'm very tough, love with myself for rough drafts. And so, because I had all the planning done, the rough draft I think took me maybe three to four months to write. Wow. And then all the rest of that time was editing, drafting beta readers, all that stuff which maybe was another year or so. And then any remaining time, I can't do math, but any remaining time that's in there. Was working with my agent on the book a little bit, cleaning it up more, him sending it out to publishers, waiting to hear back from publishers.'cause you know, that takes forever. And then of course someone acquired it. Counterpoint Press. I adore them. Shout out to Dan Lopez, who was the editor that was like, yes. And also, I should do a shout out to my, my agent Mike Duo, who sadly left the agency job force to a much bigger, very exciting job. But anyway, so I miss him, but I love him. And so anyway, so then the rest of the time was just all that stuff and, you know, the whole slow production slog of doing even more editing and all that. And so here we are. So it was, it was a lot, the actual writing. The rough draft, three to four months. Everything else was lots of work though. Wow,

Brett Benner: 11:44

okay. And so you have these, like central to the book are Birdie, Sophie, Gert. Mm-hmm. And Carl. Now some of these people are actually based on loosely, at least mm-hmm. Based on factual people, correct?

Milo Todd: 11:57

Yeah. Yes and no. So I have this weird thing where I, unless I really, really need to, I don't like using. People like by name, who really existed and using them in fiction. I don't like kind of taking real people and making them My puppet. Obviously a big exception here is Dr. Hirschfeld.'cause you can't write this book without hirschfeld. Right? But I tried to be sparing with that anyway. So ultimately the transmasculine characters, birdie, Carl and Gert. Were in their first names named after known trans-masculine, intersex people who survived all this mess. And so I just kind of named them after those people kind of as an honor. But otherwise, their lives don't really have a lot in common. That being like individually, that being said. Birdie, Carl and Gert, their lives are extremely factual in terms of the trans, the, the, the transvestite community as it was in the day. That's very much factually accurate, if that makes sense. So it's like splitting here slightly, but yeah.

Brett Benner: 12:59

No, a hundred percent. Was there one character in particular that you started with? Did you, let me also say this. Did you know from the get go that you were gonna break this into you know, two seemingly parallel storylines?

Milo Todd: 13:12

Yeah. Yeah. So that was my intention and I'm glad it did work out because it was ultimately, it's all of like a, a, a 30 year, length, really. And so again, you know, you know, Hitler comes to power 1933 in January, and then the war ends for Germany in spring of 1945. And so there's not that much time there. And so, yeah, actually it's less than 30 years, but, I really wanted to do both ends of the war because I really wanted to show how times can change and sometimes how quickly and how precious human rights are and like all this stuff and how, you know, people will live through these huge changes in rights and everything. And just showing someone's kind of. Not day-to-day, but just someone's particular experience with that. I really just wanted to get that across to folks and so I also, so I knew I wanted to write about both those things, but I also knew that I didn't want to write about the time during World War II itself, and this is not an insult to anything else that's out there, but I feel there are plenty of books about World War II itself out there these days that I was like, you know, there's really nothing new that I can add. To, to that genre, if we can call that a genre like the World War II genre. Yeah. So I wanted to do pretty much the before and the after, because to me those were the most important parts for the trans community and that like huge whiplash of changes in, in human rights. So yes.

Brett Benner: 14:43

One of of the things I would love for you to explain, first of all, a note about terminology. Mm-hmm. And you talk about this in the beginning of the book and how trans people. Identified or what, what they were even called. The term third sex mm-hmm. Comes up a lot. But can you talk a little bit about that? I just found that fascinating.

Milo Todd: 15:02

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I love about doing research like this is digging up the. Former terminologies that the queer and trans communities used. You know, I just think, I just find that stuff so fascinating. So yeah, there were multiple words and, and terms and things like that that the community used or like. Other folks used toward the community? Nothing necessarily meant to be insulting, but yeah. So there was the third sex, like you said this was I feel did incorporate in sexual orientation in addition to gender identity. Mm-hmm. The interesting thing about the third sex is in German, and I'm gonna mess up the pronunciation, sorry, German folks, Reta. And so, interestingly enough. When interpreted means gender, but also means sex. So it's the same word. And so I just find that fascinating from a language perspective. So, you know, and I still wrap my head around it and it's very interesting. So anyway, but yeah, it was used toward the trans community as well as toward the, the, the gay community and the queer community as well. And then of course there were distinctions such as transvestite, which was much more geared toward gender identity versus a word like invert, which was geared much more toward sexual orientation. And then there were just some fun ones that they. They both kind of shared the one off the top of my head is stepchildren of Nature, which I was like, we need to bring that term back. Like, yeah, I like that. I love that. Yeah, I, I really like that one. I know in one of, like one of the last drafts, I snuck that in somewhere, so I don't even think it's in the arc, but stepchildren of nature, I was like, oh, I gotta put that in. So, oh, I love that. And then, you know, stuff like that. And then the one other thing I wanna mention with terminology, which is fascinating about this era is. This was around the time that at least in the medical community distinctions were being made between sexual orientation and gender identity. It used to be more lumped together, and Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld and the Institute of Sexual Science, the Institute for Sexual Vision Shift really started to piece out those two differences. And so this is when a word like transvestite really started to come up to be like, no, this is gender identity. This isn't necessarily the same. As sexual orientation. So it was also a really big moment for that as well.

Brett Benner: 17:26

It's what's so kind of startling when you read the book. You know, the first thing being, again, I was one of those people that didn't know about queer and trans people being jailed when they were liberated from camp. So that's the first shock. But you know, I understand it's Berlin, it's 30, you know, 32 for anyone who has a limited capacity of really getting a visual on that. I was like, cabaret. Yeah. Oh, exactly. Which is the world. Right. And especially like I, you know, this recent cabaret I I saw in London mm-hmm. The production, and it's such a visual counterpoint to this, and it's so that is this world. However, it's shocking the kind of things that were happening just as we're talking here, that now would like, it seems so much further ahead of it time. Mm-hmm. First of all, and we'll get into it, the whole Institute for Sexual Science, which, mm-hmm. Again, when I first read it, I was like, well, this isn't real. I mean, this is something he's making up and knowing that this was a real institution was mind blowing. Mm-hmm. And so I'd love to get that in a second, but the first thing I wanna talk about is the transvestite cards. Mm-hmm. Because this blew me away too. I was like, that this actually existed, which in a way was such a protection for trans people and thinking about that in today's day and age, I was like, this is mind baffling. Can you talk about that for a moment?

Milo Todd: 18:45

Absolutely. I, I love talking about that stuff. And to back up slightly first though, you had brought up cabaret and I have this little fun fact, which is, so at the institute they also had like little living quarters sometimes for guests, special guests, things like that. And one of the people that they had a special guest was the author, Christopher Isherwood. Wow. And he would then frequent. Places like the El Dorado Club, which features in the, in my book. And he then wrote the book to Berlin, which ultimately became cabaret. And they believe the El Dorado Club was actually the inspiration for the Kit Kat Club. Wow. So just a fun fact there that I, I like to share.'cause you brought up cabaret. I'm like, oh, absolutely. Cabaret. They're actually very closely linked.

Brett Benner: 19:30

Yeah, I have all of those is Isherwood diaries. Yes. And now I wanna dive into those and look, you know, with this new knowledge, like, look stuff up and just dig in to see what's in there. Curious. Yeah. The one,

Milo Todd: 19:42

the one unfortunate thing and this is not, you know a slight toward, toward Christopher Isherwood,'cause I love his books, but understandably for the time, he, he tries to straight wash it as much as possible, I'm sure. But he was gay. It's very gay. You just have to look for the pieces. So that's the one. I wish it was gayer and he had felt free to just really, but I understand that he couldn't, at the time it was not safe. Sure. But but anyway, so yeah, the trans, the transvestite cards, I love talking about this. So, here's the whole little story about that. So in Berlin, in Germany, there was lots of, you know, queer rights that were being gained and all this stuff, or attempting to be gained and all this lovely stuff. And Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld was one of the people kind of leading that charge. And there were two different paragraphs on, on the laws that he was trying to get taken down. The one was the, the infamous paragraph 1 75, which was the it was anti sodomy law. So that was, you know, against queer men and queer cis men and all that stuff. A paragraph called paragraph 180 3. And this was the anti cross-dressing law. And so he was unsuccessful in getting these laws off the books, unfortunately. So he tries to do the next best thing. And in terms of paragraph 180 3, he's like, well, trans people should be allowed to go outside dressed as themselves without. Getting arrested. Right. So he decides, well one of his big things was all about public education, which we can talk more about later if you'd like. But for now, he was like, public education education's the way to go forward, and so I am going to educate the police. So he goes, the police, and he educates them. He has them come to the institute. Look at the museum stuff. Look at the library, talk with trans people, all this stuff. And it's like, look, these are just normal people trying to live their lives, right? So let's like do something for them. So the police and hirschfeld come up with the transvestite card. And this may sound a little dystopian to today's listeners, which is understandable, but what happened was you would basically be registered as a transvestite, as a trans person through the institute, and Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld would talk with you and be like, yes, it sounds like quote unquote, you know, wearing the clothes of the opposite sex would be beneficial to you mentally. And so. They then would, with the police, take a, a photo of the person dressed as themselves and paste that to this little paper card that essentially would say you know, so and so who lives at such and such a dress. And if applicable is like, works at such and such place is hereby known as wearing. You know, men's clothes or women's clothes. And so that was meant to be, you know, leave this person alone. Yes. Paragraph 180 3 is in, is in play, but don't, this person doesn't count, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. So it was this really early way of recognizing of what was quote unquote cross-dressing and what was like a more of like a trans identity thing. And of course there's plenty of crossover, but they were starting to kind of tease out that distinction. Not that cross-dressing should be illegal, but you know what I mean. Right. There's still that, still those early signs of being able to recognize trans people and their specific needs. And so, you did have to carry your card around all the time which is, you know, sucks a little bit. And also I wanna recognize that this was very binary. You know, this is very early stages. So if you were non-binary or you know, didn't always identify as a man or always identify as a woman or dress that way or what have you, you were not as well off with these cards. But again, it was the beginnings. So anyway, you had to carry this card around you, but essentially if someone on the street or a police officer or someone like say like, you didn't pass or someone suspected you and they tried to stop you to like harass you or arrest you or whatever, you could pull out this card and they'd be like, oh my bad. Like, sorry. And from what we know, it was fairly effective. so Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld and the Institute were like famous by this point. It was a tourist stop for international tourists, it was a whole thing'cause they wanted to go to the museum and get education and stuff. So Hirschfelds kind of famous and well respected and the police respected him. So, that people respected the card and were like, oh, sorry. Okay. Basically you're one of Hirschfelds kids, is the way I see it. They're like, oh, we're not gonna mess with his kids. And so it was very, very effective for the most part. And the, the police to paraphrase, even made a public statement saying that transvestites were not. Evil people. They were not spies. They were just people, which again, was very big for the time. And they were like, Hey everybody, leave these folks alone. And one last piece I'll say for now about the transvestite cards is that based on my research, there's only one known surviving card, and it is at the Magnus Magnus Hirschfeld Society in Berlin. And it's a place that started to gather whatever remaining materials there were. For Hirschfeld and that time in that institute, and so there's one card left. It belongs to Gerd Katter, K-A-T-T-E-R, and bless him, he was a trans-masculine person. Went to the Institute for Healthcare and stuff, wanted to become a sexologist himself. Did all this outreach for youth and stuff like that. And he survived the war, held onto all of his materials. And as soon as the war was over in 1945, it's like, somebody, please send this, someone, please take this stuff from me. So it's safe. I'm getting older, I'm getting up there in years. Unfortunately, nobody wanted it. He was not successful until, I wanna say the eighties when he came across Ralph Doza, who was a co-founder of the Magnus Hirschfeld Society. And. Ralph dos is like, oh my God, gimme, gimme, gimme. Like gimme all this stuff. Yeah. And GERD was really getting up there in years by that point, and I believe passed away in 1996, something like that. So bless Gerd Catter because him protecting that stuff for decades is, from what I understand, one of the biggest reasons we know what we know about the trans community. At the institute at the time. That's amazing. Yeah. That's

Brett Benner: 25:49

amazing. Alright, so the institute, let's get into it.'cause I mean, it is, it's a, it's a really a central point in this book. It's a hub, it's a you know, so many of these characters meet and come through there. Can you kind of give an overview of, of what it was?

Milo Todd: 26:06

Absolutely. Yeah, so I love the institute again. This is the Institute for Sexual Vision, shaft Institute for Sexual Science. And it was co-founded by Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld, who was a cis gay Jewish doctor. And I believe it was founded in 1919, somewhere around there. And so yeah, this is a big deal. It would be a big deal now. It was a big deal back in the day. Yeah. And so this was this huge institute that provided trans related surgeries, like queer related healthcare as well. They were some of the first folks trying to basically invent hormone replacement therapy. Ultimately, they were unsuccessful, but they really tried, and it actually did lay the groundwork for a lot of the. HRT we have these days, which is awesome. Anyone who's familiar with the testosterone, HRT test Appel that technically was invented at the institute and was called Titus Pearls. But the institute was just huge for the time. So it, it was medical care. It was psychiatric care in like the positive way, not like the detransition way for the record. Yeah. But psychiatric care, it was a museum. It was a library. That's really important. It was like tours. They did tours all the time for the public. It was just an education place. They would house special guests like Christopher Isherwood. They would sometimes hou when they could. Safe space was very limited, but they would house when they could. Trans people who couldn't find housing'cause they were trans, they would, when available, they would try to hire trans people as workers. Because they also knew that was difficult for trans people to do, to find work. They did all sorts of stuff. They had legal services, they had financial services. If you were, if you could pay for this stuff, you paid for this stuff. If you couldn't, they would do what they could to cover it for you. And one of my favorite bits with the public education thing is they had this little box or little mailbox or something like that outside, in the front of the, of the building on the sidewalk. And it was meant for you to write down. Questions anonymously and slip them into the box. And then once a week Dr. Hirschfeld would gather up those questions and would lead an open public like session as it were at the institute in one of the lecture halls. And he would answer these questions. For people. And what's to me amazing about this is just that really welcoming energy of asking questions to learn. And also having this completely publicly accessible, which meant on any given week you would have like the most renowned scientist sitting next to a day laborer who just wanted to learn more about this. So this was, all of this was huge, huge, huge, huge for the time. And this made. The institute and Berlin like the hub of trans and queer rights education, medicine in the entire colonized world. And one last little fun bit is that it got a very big thumbs up from Albert Einstein among other scientists. Yeah, they had a, they had a framed photo of him in, in the institute. It, I believe it may have been signed by Albert Einstein too, but like he was very pro this institute alongside all the other scientists around

Brett Benner: 29:17

that. That's incredible. What I kept thinking the, the only kind of a American equivalent of anything close to this was William Masters in Virginia Johnson. The whole Masters of Sex thing. Yeah. And that's what it reminded me of. But on a grand scale, right? Mm-hmm. I, again, trying to wrap my head around it. In this current age of this place, actually existing, it felt like some kind of Oz

Milo Todd: 29:43

yeah. Yeah. Like you could easily pass it off as speculative fiction. I'm like, oh, no, no, no. This was over a hundred years ago and it was 100% real.

Brett Benner: 29:52

Yeah. And I know that Magnus was a, eventually, he, he was kind of exiled to, to France Yes. Where he ended up dying.'cause he was put on, wasn't he put on Hitler's list as in terms of someone who Yes.

Milo Todd: 30:02

So Magnus was so successful in all of his queer and trans rights and anti-abortion stuff. Like, and I mean like, he was pro-abortion. He was trying to get the anti-abortion paragraph away. So he was pro-abortion, pro all that stuff. And Hitler. Was so angry about this, that, and I quote this, you know, from, from German is Hitler called Hirschfeld the most dangerous Jew in Germany. And, and I'm not making a joke when I say coming from Hitler, that is one hell of a statement. Like, it's like he was public enemy number one.'cause he was such a threat to the fascism and everything. So this was like the massive dog whistle for all of the Nazi supporters and the Nazis and the followers and all that stuff to be like, oh, we're gonna take out hirschfeld. And so Hitler came to power January 30th, 1933, or at least became chancellor, excuse me. And by just a few months later, May 6th. 1933, some Nazi youths came to the institute and and ransacked it. They ripped it apart. They stole all the materials, all from the library. This was a huge loss to research and history because the library was known for holding or housing over 20,000 books and journals, at least half of them. Rare are the only known copies, and this was all about queer and trans stuff from across the world, as well as over 35,000 photographic slides of. Queer and trans stuff from the around the world. And so a few days later, all of this stuff gets burned and this giant bonfire at the opera plats in Berlin, and it's televised. You know, Joseph gbo is there. It's a whole propaganda thing. It's a very frightening media to look at, and it is the first known queer, trans what have you book banned in documented history, which was a book burning. And I know going. Off topic here, but I'll come back. But the other thing is that the photographs that are often used in, for instance, the history books of like the US talking about book bans and you know, all this stuff that the Nazis did, freedom of speech, all this stuff, they will show photo stills from that night. They never seemed to actually say what specifically was being burned that night. So it's this weird double erasure. They're like, look at this terrible erasure that was happening. And then don't mention it was just the entirety of trans and queer history that had been collected up to that point. It was a massive loss that night. So anyway, this happens, it's televised, and originally the Nazis were there to also presumably kill hirschfeld. Because they're chanting things like Death to Hirschfeld and Hirschfeld survived because he wasn't there. He wasn't even in the country as luck would have it. He was already on a world tour educating other countries about queer and trans. Wow stuff. And so that saved his life. And so he was in France by the time he saw a movie reel, a film reel that in a theater that showed all his stuff being burned. And obviously this was probably incredibly devastating to him. That was his life's work. It was burned. He knew he could never go back. And so he never returned to Germany and he remained exiled in France until his death, I wanna say two years later on his. Birthday. Unfortunately it was either a heart attack or a stroke most likely. But he did have a lovely birthday, honestly, up until that point. So he was surrounded by loved ones. But you know, I sometimes wonder if it was like one of those broken heart scenarios.'cause that's a lot to take.

Brett Benner: 33:26

Oh my God. I mean, it's that whole. Part of the book is its own. It could be its own book. Yeah. And it's interesting because I kept thinking, wow, this could be a series unto itself. Mm-hmm. Just this institute and this man and this kind of world that all of these characters come through. One of the things you talked about, workers there many times were employed, were trans individuals. And I love that. This quote that you talked about, there was a. Character in the book named Dora Richter, who worked there. She was one of the housekeepers. Mm-hmm. At the institute. But it said Birdie who Birdie also works at the Institute. Mm-hmm. It said Birdie sometimes spotted her and the four other housekeepers with the souls of women sitting close together. And when I first read that, that kind of took my breath away because it said everything about who they were, the souls of women. And I love that so much. It brings up so much stuff that you take that you know, so many things we take for granted, like talking about hormones. Talking about things that, the way that people presented themselves before, what is been in a lot of ways readily available now. I kept thinking about that, about changing your appearance and how you changed your appearance. And there's a, a wonderful sequence because clarification, just for. For our listeners, birdie and Sophie are two of the characters. They do escape the initial rise in what happens. So everything happening in 1945 really centers around them. And this character Carl, who they find who has, once the camps are liberated, escapes before he is captured. And so they help him, which is what the kind of, the second part of the book, or the alternate part I should say, of the book is, but there's a, there's a. It's a kind of almost sweet sequence of birdie teaching Carl. Yeah. Have kind of masculine mannerisms and how to kind of, to blend effectively, isn't it? Mm-hmm.

Milo Todd: 35:16

Yeah. Yeah. To essentially pass, because Yeah, their lives literally depend on it, so, yeah.

Brett Benner: 35:22

Yeah. It's, it's a weird resonance because pulling up to current day when Trump. Got elected. Mm-hmm. Again, I know that watching so many, you know, I follow a lot of trans individuals on Instagram, but a lot of them talking about either, oh gosh, I hope I get this terminology rate going dark, or in terms of young people Yeah. Protecting themselves mm-hmm. Over these next four years, and it broke my heart, but I thought of this so much like, again, doing what you have to do to protect yourself. To get through this effectively. Yeah, yeah. It's heartbreaking.

Milo Todd: 36:05

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it is, again, book wasn't meant to be timely, but here we are and it is, you know, there were multiple things that the whole, like birdie kind of guiding. Carl in terms of passing and how to talk and your mannerisms and your walking and all, and you know how to dress, you know, all this stuff. You know, I, I do think it, it's very bittersweet because there's a, there's a wonderful tenderness there, but also it's very sad that this has to be done because, at least for Carl. You know, it's not so much that it's, it's dysphoria for him necessarily, but it is, he recognizes I need to do this if I wanna survive. And so it's this touching on sometimes to this day, you know, trans people need to go stealth or, or go dark in either direction.

Brett Benner: 36:51

I. Because stealth, that

Milo Todd: 36:51

was it. Yeah. Or just try to pass or what have you, because sometimes it's not so much dysphoria. It is a survival technique, which, you know, a lot of folks still need to this day. So I wanted to recognize that. Recognize that, you know, it's not as easy as like, oh, you cut your hair and put on pants, and now you pat like it's, it's. It's not that easy and there's a lot of work that goes into it. A lot of energy, a lot of mental energy, a lot of physical energy. And the other thing being community. Yeah. And especially how the older ones look after the younger ones and it kind of doesn't really matter what your age is. If you're older, you are the mentor to the, to the younger ones and it kind of trickles down that way. And so it's just also trying to embody that as well. So. Yeah. I'm glad that that resonated with you to some degree because there, there was a lot of symbolism I tried to put into those passages that are quite bittersweet.

Brett Benner: 37:45

No, and I think one of the things that the book, kind of, the messaging of the book ultimately is about what you just said is community, and it's about the importance because, you know. Look, you're not a soothsayer. And I, as I'm reading this, my first thought was like, how does the queer community, but most specifically the trans community, because they're being targeted. So you know, front and center right now, the ridiculousness of it is, is beyond, I mean. You know, anyone with half a brain can see how silly this all is. As, as I saw someone wrote yesterday, they were like, fun fact, Donald Trump has more allegations of sexual assault against him than there are trans athletes. I. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so true. And, but, but this is what everybody, this is what the Republican party wants to focus on now because we have to make an enemy, right? Mm-hmm. We have to make, someone's gonna come into the bathroom and assault you. And as someone else said, if what you're afraid of is a man in a dress coming into the bathroom Yeah. You're not afraid of a trans person.

Milo Todd: 38:46

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's

Brett Benner: 38:48

really, that's really the truth. And again, it's what I started to say in the beginning there, I think. This novel, you know, you didn't plan it, of course. Mm-hmm. But the value of it is so important to not only show and humanize again, that these are just people trying to live their lives and live their best lives and their most authentic lives against this authoritarian regime, which is exactly what's happening. Again, the parallels are horrifically. for everything that's going on now in terms of erasure and in terms of, with the black community as well and what they're doing and, and it's just taking all kinds of identity away from people. And so it did give me, by the time I finished this, an incredible amount of hope for perseverance and that, look, this book shows. Trans people have always been around. Queer people have always been around. They will always be around. They will never be eradicated, and they will never be, regardless of what anybody tries to do or what they try to say, it's, it's just not gonna happen. Yeah,

Milo Todd: 39:54

yeah,

Brett Benner: 39:55

absolutely. And and, and that's another reason I just, I think the book is so great because it shows that, it shows that, you know what? And it brings up so many questions too, about just survival, what people need to do to survive. Mm-hmm. I mean, I questioned the idea of, you know, what would you do in this situation? How would you react? Is it that one should stand up and fight at the risk of death? Or is it that one should survive at all costs? And I don't know the answer to that necessarily.

Milo Todd: 40:23

Yeah. And, and that, and thank you for bringing that up.'cause I that is something I tried to grapple with in this book where there isn't necessarily only ever one answer when it comes to like survival or standing up for human rights and stuff. It is I mean, and at least this is, this is how I do things, but like, sometimes survival means you have to pick your battles.

Brett Benner: 40:43

Yeah. And

Milo Todd: 40:43

so there are certain situations that Birdie and the others get into and it's like, okay, like. Will we live to see tomorrow if we actually stand up for what is genuinely right or is that basically just, just suicide? Like, you know, is it really helpful for us to take the, the death route essentially knowing we stood up for what was right versus staying quiet and living to kind of tell our story later? You know, there, there are pros and cons to both and it's really just analyzing your particular situation and how to move forward with survival and it's very messy. It's very, very messy stuff and like you said, people don't really know what they are or are not gonna do until they are in that actual situation.

Brett Benner: 41:27

A hundred percent. It's also an interesting thing too, looking at Carl versus Sophie and Birdie who, who avoided Luckily, yeah. The camps and they escaped. But Carl who went through it, yeah. Who was actually in the camps and then escaped. So there's a whole different mindset for him in terms of survival and in terms of where he's at when we first see him. Mm-hmm. Which is really fascinating.

Milo Todd: 41:52

Yeah, he is. He is, and I say this very lovingly, he's a very broken character when he comes on the scene. He has seen some stuff and. Going back briefly to the whole, like, how long this book take you to write thing there, you know, no spoilers for the listeners, but there's a chapter that I just refer to as Carl's monologue and yeah, you'll know it when you get to it. We'll put it that way. And that, and it's all of like, I don't know, four pages. It's a very small amount of, of page length, and yet the research and the planning and the editing that went into that. Honestly took me that scene alone, I wanna say, took me somewhere between six and 12 months. It was, and I was like just so dedicated to it. And it's kind of wild when you see how tiny that passage is in the end. But it was, it was worth it for me, but it was, so, yeah, he's, he's a very broken character and I really tried to illustrate that, especially in that type of scene.

Brett Benner: 42:45

No. And, and, and, and how could you not be?

Milo Todd: 42:48

Yeah.

Brett Benner: 42:48

You know, how really, how could you not be? So, I just wanna say thank you so much for this book. It's, it's, it's really incredible. It's really beautiful. I mean, I, I, I, I found myself weeping at the end of it and I just, it's so incredibly moving and I, as I said. I started to say in the beginning, I, I think there is, is such value in this and also just the history and I think it's so important. You know, that whole, what we don't learn, it repeats itself and here we are. And I think it's important also for the queer community to know all of this. And I just think many people don't, frankly. So I so appreciate. The time you put into this, the research you put into this? Just the sharing of all this information. I, I, I, I I think it's not only great in a literature part of it, but just the, the, the history and on what you've given. So thank you so much.

Milo Todd: 43:47

Well thank you so much. That's really, really sweet of you to say it. It does mean a lot to me.'cause that's. All I ever wanted from this book was for these, this community to be remembered and for people to know what they went through and kind of do my part to undo some of that erasure and come back, bring back the kind of the honor of this community. So thank you all for all of that. That's all I ever wanted and I. You know, anyone listening out there, we got really tough times right now. There's gonna be probably tougher times ahead'cause that's just how history works. But as I've been telling folks, you know, look back at your transistors, you know, look back at history and all these folks that have endured things before, you know, so as I've been telling folks, you know, the ghost of history are watching. Kissing our foreheads. So kind of hold onto that. We'll get through this and, you know, thank you everyone for, for listening to me nerd out on this history with Brett. No, it's, I mean, it, no, it's,

Brett Benner: 44:36

it's, it's, it's so funny'cause we, we talked so lightly about the actual plot points of the book, which I kind of wanted to be that way because I don't want to. Ruin any of that part of the book for the people. And so much of it to me is about the history and it is about the world that these people are inhabiting. Mm-hmm. And so thank you for this'cause it's, you know, been an incredible history lesson, but please buy the book, buy independent. If you can, congratulations. Thank you. It's truly a, a terrific novel and good luck with all of it.

Milo Todd: 45:05

Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me here, Brett. I love talking with you and wonderful questions that you asked, and thank you everyone for, for listening as well.

45:15

Thank you again, Milo. And if you like this conversation and are enjoying this podcast, please consider liking and subscribing from your podcast platform of choice. Also, if you have a little bit of extra time and you wouldn't mind giving a review, that would be amazing. Reviews help move a podcast up through the, uh, reviews help. Okay. Reviews absolutely help with the algorithm in terms of making more people become aware of particular podcasts. So if you do like this podcast, please consider leaving a review as well. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll be back again next week. Thanks again for listening, and I'll be back again next week.