Jo Harkin, The Pretender

In this episode Brett sits down with author Jo Harkin for her novel, "The Pretender". They discuss her jump from speculative to historical fiction, bawdiness in the Tutor age, and the books that inspired her while writing this.

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hey everyone, it's Brett Benner, and welcome to another episode of Behind the Stack. I'm really happy to have joining me today, author Jo Harkin, whose new novel, the Pretender is just fantastic, especially for you history buffs out there, but you don't need to be a history buff to really enjoy this story. A little bit about Joe. She studied literature at university. She daydreamed her way through various jobs in her twenties before becoming a full-time writer. Her debut novel Tell Me An Ending was a New York Times Book of the Year. She lives in Berkshire, England. So please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I'm really thrilled to be sitting down with Joe Harkin today for her new book, the Pretender. First of all, the book, Joe. The book is so, so, so good. And I have to tell you, I did like a marathon read of it and I could not put it down. It's, it's just brilliant and, and so damn funny. But it's really fantastic. So congratulations.

Jo Harkin: 1:10

Thank you very much and thank you for having me.

Brett Benner: 1:13

Before we launch into the book, which I certainly wanna talk about, you are an enigma a little bit. I was like looking up information. I was like, there is very little about you on the internet. Oh. My only real my question for you is this. Did you go to university to write.

Jo Harkin: 1:31

So I actually started university doing psychology. In it, it's, this is quite unusual for universities in the uk. We were actually able, I think this is a standard thing in America, you can switch your major but UK you normally sort of, yes, you start off doing your degree and you're stuck with it. Fortunately I wasn't stuck with psychology and I actually switched to English literature, which sort of started me off as yeah. That was, I always knew I wanted to be a writer. I just thought I would be a psychologist and write in my spare time. And then I, I decided I was just going to be a, a writer full time. Obviously it took me a little while to actually get there. This is part of the biography that I. Obviously isn't on the internet. It took me several years. This is why it's not on the internet. But yes, I, so I was kind of doing odd jobs for quite a while after uni. Just day jobs really, and just trying to write a book that was good enough to get published.

Brett Benner: 2:24

Okay. That's amazing. And, and that was the, his the tell me an ending. Correct.

Jo Harkin: 2:28

Actually, there were a couple of books before that under a different name altogether.

Brett Benner: 2:31

Wow. Yes,

Jo Harkin: 2:33

I know. Yeah. So much, so much that's not on the internet. Yes. I was finding my feet really as a writer with those, like I. They were my learning process, but also they're published and out there, so it's yeah, slightly embarrassing. They're like my children that have like embarrassed me, so we don't talk about them. So tell me an ending English first novel as Joe Harkin and I actually do still like that book, so I, that's why I kept the same name. I I didn't try to like, cut ties with that one.

Brett Benner: 3:04

I'm, I'm so glad'cause I just bought it.

Jo Harkin: 3:10

It's a different reading experience to the pretender, but I think it's still, yeah, I, I feel like if you like the pretender, you should also enjoy. Tell me an ending. I hope so.

Brett Benner: 3:18

Yeah. Well, one of the things that it does say about you is that you love, speculative fiction which I think this falls under, like sci-fi, speculative fiction. Tell me an ending, which I found. Completely fascinating because then this is anything but that this is so radically different. So like how did you get there? How did that happen?

Jo Harkin: 3:41

I mean, in a way it's like there's a similarity in that they're both kind of what if novels? So tell me, an ending is basically. What if you have memories removed? And what if you found out that you could get your memory back? Would you do it? And then the pretender is what if you're a young peasant boy in the dawn of Tudor England and you're told that you're the secret air to the throne. It's all, it's, they're both thought experiments.

Brett Benner: 4:04

Yeah. Now you were dealing with, let's do this first. So we can get into the book. Can you give like an elevator pitch of the book for our listeners and our viewers?

Jo Harkin: 4:14

Oh God. I think I actually just did that accidentally, didn't I? With the young boy in in Tudor England thing. yeah,

Brett Benner: 4:19

we started and so I thought, we thought let's get into it.

Jo Harkin: 4:22

Okay. No worries. So yes I guess the elevator pitch would be at the beginning of the tutor age young. Boy, growing up on a farm whose biggest enemy is his father's goat, finds out one day that he's the secret. The Tudor throne chaos ensues

Brett Benner: 4:39

and, and this is based loosely on a real person and a real incident, correct?

Jo Harkin: 4:45

Yes, that's true. So this was kind of, I was actually meant to be writing another sci-fi when I stumbled across this real person. I was reading a book about the monarchy in England, as you do when you're writing. Another sci-fi and you're supposed to be doing research into neurological studies in scientific journals. You pick up a book about the monarchy because you don't wanna do your actual work. So while I was reading that, I gotta the page on Henry vii, who obviously is he's our first tutor to King. He, you know, father of Henry VIII and grandfather of Elizabeth. And so he was kind of, he, he doesn't really get the press that the others get. He was an interesting king and that he was quite tenuous. And his reign was basically characterized by a lot of challenges, a lot of threat, and he spent his time really fighting to hold onto the throne and establishing so on, on this page about him. I was kind of inclined to skip it because he isn't. As a king, he's quite a quiet, paranoid personality. And then I noticed there was this footnote about a pretender to the throne. There were a couple, and this was sort of the lesser known of the two pretenders, but it, he was the first, it was called Lambert Siminal and this is the true story of him. I've obviously expanded on it. But the essence of it is he kind of came out of nowhere and was claimed to be this York heir from, from the former ruling dynasty. Everyone thought they'd sort of been wiped out, but yeah, the claim was that he is, he was returned that the York sort of faction had got hold of him somehow and they basically invaded England with him as the figurehead of their army. A puppet really, because he was just a tiny boy. And, yeah, it was, it was an ill-fated attempt. Obviously we don't, he didn't become king. But I just found that incredibly interesting. That's, yeah, and it sort of got me thinking and I couldn't really put the idea down over the coming days, weeks, when I was supposed to be writing the sci-fi. I just kept kind of mulling over this, Googling him, like looking up. I think when I started to look up primary sources, I knew that I was deemed, I was like, I was writing this story basically.

Brett Benner: 6:53

So between research and writing, how long did it take you?

Jo Harkin: 6:56

Oh God. So. I keep, this is the, I've said this a few times, maybe I should just stop saying this because it's quite embarrassing. I went into it thinking I'll just take a little detour from my sci-fi career. Well, you know, maybe sort of spend a few months on research, then a few months writing, knock it out in about a year and a half. It was five years. All in all I was, yeah, it, it was, looking back, I dunno how I thought I could familiarize myself with an entire period of English history. And write what turned out to be quite a big novel in that time. But I guess if I'd known how difficult it would be, I probably wouldn't have started. So I think my arrogance there probably was a good thing.

Brett Benner: 7:34

Oh my God. Certainly, because it's, and again, I'm, I'm not a history buff in any stretch of the imagination, so I'm not the person to go through it and say, well, this is not factual or this is factual. But certainly, and especially in the second half of the novel, you're hitting on so many factual things and factual figures that are coming into this that I couldn't help but think I. My God, she must have been researching this forever to put this together.'cause it is, it is vast.

Jo Harkin: 8:04

Yeah. It's

Brett Benner: 8:05

and impressive.

Jo Harkin: 8:06

Yes. Oh, thanks. It's an interesting period of history in that records are actually quite patchy. It's I think it's been fictionalized or certainly like the later. The era is around it. Like the Richard the third era and the Henry the eighth era have been heavily fictionalized and I kind of went into it thinking that there'd be a lot to get through in terms of the historical record. Actually, there's not so much like primary sources are very thin. We've got a lot of like historians kind of piling in later and they've almost set our ideas of what that I, what that time was. But a lot of it is sort of, it's just fictionalized. So getting to the actual. What really was written at that point was one of the challenges. But then it was good as a writer because it did leave me with a lot of space to just kind of imagine. So Lambert Seminal himself, for example. Yeah. He is like, you know, he is still a child. When his invasion fails, he gets. Some pardoned by Henry VII as kind of this magnanimous act, which is really an, an act of humiliation for him and all the powerful people that supported him. It's kind of saying, this kid isn't a threat. I'm gonna pardon him and put him to work in my kitchens, and that's the end of him kind of thing. Let's, let's put all this behind us. And but for me, I was really excited about that because he's out of the history books at this point. Like, we never hear anymore about him. Like Henry Thei historians are not going to return to, you know, be like, what's he doing now? With, with this guy. So I had the opportunity to write a whole, like second act with him as, as an adult by this point. Like, what's he gonna do at court? And it was really good to kind of create this story of. He basically becomes involved in like the, the politics machinations and espionage of Henry Thei court, which was really fun. So again, it's real life events, but I was able to sort of weave him in in a way that didn't turn it into alternate history because I didn't wanna do that, but just fit him around the, the actual recorded events at the time. That was fun.

Brett Benner: 10:03

Yeah, and it, I, I have to say, I thought it was just, it, it's so brilliantly done. And It plays out to me the book and reading it, it feels very much almost like a play because you've written very definite sections that he goes through kind of from, from the beginning when he's this young boy on a farm to where he ends up. It reminds me a little bit of Walter White's transformation through Breaking Bad, but to see his kind of, maturation into what he becomes. it's just simply fantastic. One of the things that I so appreciated about the book, and when I first saw the book and people were saying, you know, for fans of Wolf Hall, well, I will be the first to say I was not a fan of Wolf Hall. Like I read it and can appreciate it, but I felt like perhaps it's because I'm not. From the uk perhaps it's not a history that was ingrained in me. I, I, you know, I, I could appreciate it and, and somewhere behind me, I have them all. But what I loved about this is it's humor. It was so funny and Bawdy and it reminded me very much of the show. The great. And also Christopher Hampton's adaption of:Laclos' les liasons dangereuses, and, and that kind of humor that gets put into it and the fun of it.

Jo Harkin: 11:22

I'm really glad that that spoke to you. It's it, it kind of, I didn't really, I, I actually love Wolf Hall. I think it's incredible. I could not write Wolf Hall, obviously, and I wouldn't, you know, why would you try? I, I think I kind of needed to do something that was more my wheelhouse and I am silly and bawdy and without any confidence that anyone else would find me funny at all, but. It's I think like when I was researching it, I, I was looking like I, I had this. Image of the Tudor ages or late medieval, which is what it really is. I was very like grim, oppressive. Like, everyone's just going around in fear of being burned at the stake. They're all unwashed. You know, women don't have any, you know, freedom in any way. And it, and it's just a grim era. That was what I thought. And actually like, they did have fun. Like it was, they had a very. Satirical and obscene sense of humor, which like at all layers of society, you see it, you see it in the manuscripts and the monasteries where people have like doodled little characters with their bums out. Or, you know, the, like, the sort of Chaucerian tales with that are just rude basically that. I won't, I dunno how fast friendly this, this podcast is. I won't go into too much detail, but it's, you can

Brett Benner: 12:35

swear. No, you can, you can say anything. It's fine. Oh,

Jo Harkin: 12:37

okay. Yeah, so yeah, they, they're quite filthy and, and they like to poke fun at the upper levels of society. You've got these incredibly rude French fao, which we're all about sort of lords and ladies cook, holding each other and stuff, and you know, people, you know, just, just, just stupid toilet humor, Basically at all levels. They enjoyed a dirty joke and so do I, and it like. That, that I was really pleased about because I, I felt like, okay, I can see myself in this era. It's not completely alien. Obviously a lot of the ways they think are are very different, but some things are timeless and so I felt like great, I can, I can get into the spirit of the age. I can write a book that does have tragedy and brutality and darkness, but also kind of mixes that with some humor and yeah, and that's, I'm not gonna be mantel, I'm a lot sin than that. But so are the medieval people, so that's great. I think it worked well.

Brett Benner: 13:28

No, it did. I, I was I just, just for an example, and I love this so much, it made me, this is the first time, I think it's page nine, and I burst out laughing when John, when the book opens, his name is John and he's with his brothers who are older and tease him mercilessly and, he says his brothers are also the ones who taught him to read and write. They showed him how to make ink and sharpen a goose feather quill, and how to write John Collin, and then a sig sigle, which they told him meant John, but which even he could see was a drawing of a penis and two balls. They were proud of him for realizing.

Jo Harkin: 14:02

I'm laughing at my own joke there. You can see where my level is.

Brett Benner: 14:07

Yes, exactly. And when I read that I was like, okay, I am so in, I am so in for this ride because I knew exactly where it was going. It's also something that struck me so much about I. The story, and I had to keep going back to remind myself is the age of him and later Joan, who I want to get into, who's such an amazing character. But just the age of these kids, which what they were, they were kids. I. And what they were coming up against that. Can you just talk a little bit about that, just the ages?

Jo Harkin: 14:40

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, childhood in the Tudor age was obviously quite different to what it is now. Like he was, as a child, he was basically working on the farm already. He was a contributing part of, of the family farm and. At the other end of the scale when he's kind of thrown into the world of the, the nobility. Again, you are, you are in training. You are, he was, he'd be doing sword fighting learning Latin. It's, they didn't really get much time to just sort of do, do childhood stuff. They would still play, but it was. The process was accelerated. So that was interesting to try to get my head around that. So as the novel progresses, he's, he's 10 when it starts. And then he's sort of hitting puberty as, as we go through, so. He basically ends up, he goes from the countryside of Oxfordshire to Oxford, to the courts of Belgium, what is now modern day Belgium to the Court of Ireland, and then finally to England again. And around the time he arrives in Ireland, he's basically just entering adolescence and that's when he meets Joan, who is his love interest a slightly sociopathic love interest, a bit of a complex character. And he is, it is basically his struggle to try to have his own romantic life and do the things that teenage boys do while he is being puppeted to become king. And has this destiny sort of forced on him. So there's a, yeah, it was interesting to kind of play with the challenge of that for him.

Brett Benner: 16:05

Yeah. So let's, I mean, God, I love Joan. Let's talk about her for a second. Okay. So she's, like you said, when he gets to the court of Ireland he's living with his family and she is one of, is it four or five children? And she's the, she's of, of like, I think it's four daughters and a son. Is that right?

Jo Harkin: 16:21

So Joan is one of five of the Earl of Kildair. And and they have one baby son who obviously they're much relieved about. So we're, to give some context, he arrives in Ireland and this is. The Earl of Kildair was also known as the Great Earl or the Uncrowded King of Ireland. He was a very charismatic, powerful figure and he was fun to write, but his daughters were probably even more fun. Joan in particular, it's kind of concerning how easy it was to create such a Machiavellian psychopathic female. Like, I dunno why it just flowed out me, but it really did. So she basically takes it on herself kind of. As Edward as he has called at this point, his name changes. As the book goes on, she decides to give Edward a bit of an education in courtly scheming because when he arrives he's very innocent. He's quite, he's religious. He's kind of having early sexual thoughts, but he feels bad about them. If he tells a lie, he thinks he has to do penance and he really takes everything he's told in good faith. The nobles who are sort of puppeting him. Tell him that he's the secret, your care who was swapped at birth and he believes them. And it's Joan who first says, do you think that's really who you are? And he's absolutely shocked. And this kind of is a bit of a revelation to him, this, this introduction of doubt into his world. And she initially thinks he's quite pathetic and but then decides to kind of help him out and yeah, give him a few lessons in survival, which he points out that he is absolutely going to need.

Brett Benner: 17:48

Yeah, it's, it's, first of all, I loved this whole family, and I have to, I have to say, it's such an interesting thing, like looking back at the book because the, the two families that he kind of lives with first, the one that he's raised with before, he gets taken on this journey and I. The where he ends up with the kils, with Kilder and his family, they're, they're very, for the most part loving and loving to him. I loved kil, there's relationship with his wife. It was very sweet and. Sexy and they were very much in love with each other and, you know, he very much adores all of his children. He loves that he has a son, but he, he has a special place for Joan, as I think the reader very much develops for Joan as well because of everything that she is. And she's just fearless and says her mind and because of their relationship that develops and it's, it's so, it's not typical necessarily, which is why I think it's so great and why you're rooting for it so much, because almost despite of his innocence and who he is, and she realizes what, like you said, what she has to do to help him. She finds herself falling for him and it's just, it's so great.

Jo Harkin: 19:01

Good. It was yeah, it was nice to portray the family dynamic. I think, again, because of the darkness of the story, I didn't want him to just be. Just having an unrelentingly terrible time as, as he's propelled around all these different places. And I think in Ireland, he does kind of find the sense of family that he misses from the farm. Obviously early on he has this real sense of betrayal because the, the people that he think thinks that his father, brothers dead mother, who he barely remembers, you know, he, he has a, a lot of feeling for these people. This is all he knows, and he is suddenly taken away. And not only is he removed from them and is lonely and sad, but he has this feeling of betrayal that he's, he is, been lied to, like he's, he's been told that he is a peasant child growing up to be a sort of a, you know, a farmer and and that his dad isn't his dad. His, his brothers aren't his brothers. He's never gonna see any of them again. And that's a tough pill to swallow. So I really wanted to give him some human connection later, which he obviously. Desperately latches onto and yeah, and have warmth there and warmth in moments throughout the book. So even in, even in the worst places he ends up, he's still finding people to bond with because I think this is what, you know what we do. This is human nature and this is what happens. So I'm glad that that came through and that. Yeah. And that sense of love is represented because there were loving relationships, there were love matches. Like especially in the peasant class, most people chose who they married. It was anybody, the nobles that got sort of forcibly married often to people. So yeah, that I, I liked portraying that, that was good.

Brett Benner: 20:34

It's interesting when he gets to England too, one of the things that, and it's of course, it's, it's right on, but seeing it play out is the amount of. Gossip that happens among this court from the very top to the very bottom and the, the pervasiveness of it and how everybody has something to tell and everyone has something to hide. It's. It's literally almost like a Feydeau farce

Jo Harkin: 21:01

yes. That was enjoyable. Like the, the court section. I think the challenge with that was it could have been a bit of a downer. Like he's, he arrives in England, he's supposed to be taking the throne and becoming king. Obviously the attempt collapses and he's thrown into the cells. He's forced to sign a confession and and then he ends up in a kitchen. And this is like a, this is the dark moment in his narrative, but then he sort of. He remembers what Jones taught him. He starts to gather his wits and this actually becomes the first time in his life he's had some agency. So he is maneuvering within this space and he wants, he wants vengeance against the people that he views as having ruined his life. And he wants to get back, to, to Ireland, to, to Joan. And but first he has to navigate court. And it is, yeah, it's a farcical place. It's full of gossip, it's full of scheming. And I, that was actually a, a really interesting second act. I thought I really got into that bit and yeah. And I think it was accurate to the period there was, there was a lot of bed hopping and a lot of bitching and scheming.

Brett Benner: 22:03

Yeah, and it's also the introduction of Beatrice who becomes, like you talked about the, the need for you know, community or friends or finding each other. And who works in the, who works, if I'm not mistaken, works in the kitchen with him or as a servant and strikes up a friendship with him, she's such a great character and I loved this relationship and you know, not spoiling anything. She has her own kind of surprises that kind of come out later, which was great because that whole relationship was not what I expected it to be or what was going to be. So I thought she was a great addition and surprise,

Jo Harkin: 22:35

Yeah, I think she's kind of the heart of that section because at this point in the novel he is seminal as we now know him because he is been forced to give up the name Edward Earl of Warwick. He, this is his final, well, no, not even his final transformation. Seminal has become quite a dark, hardened character by this point. He is. Yeah, and I think Beatrice is his, she represents this sort of thread of human connection that, and hope that's, she's trying to reach out to him and, and stop him going down a path of, of vengeance and, and callousness and yeah. So she was an important counterbalance to him, I think in that section. It's, yeah. I'm glad, I'm glad she came through in that way.

Brett Benner: 23:15

Having finished this, and now I'm sure you're back to your your sci-fi speculative novel, but do you think you'll ever go back to history?

Jo Harkin: 23:22

Actually, I I'm not gonna be writing sci-fi again for probably another five years. I'm so I've got a, a two book contract with my publisher in the us. And they would like to see another historical, which is great. So it will be the same era like a few years later, different cast of characters. So this time it's going to be a young woman in medieval London and or late medieval London and she. It's just gonna be a completely different section of society. So it is still, Henry Thei is the king but she's basically the daughter of a rich merchant. And she's spoiled. And so she has quite an unprecedented level of freedom as a woman at that era. And she has just, she's basically full of all these. Dreams of becoming a leading doctor or scientist and her father's just like, yes, you can. Absolutely, you can do anything you want. And so she kind of is almost an opposite trajectory to Lambert Signal in that he starts with no power and she starts thinking she can just do anything. And so she has to go on her own journey of discovering the limitations of the age and her own limitations. the plan is to send her to the court of Spain at the time where you have this queen called Ana la loca of Joanna the mad. And she wasn't really mad. She was basically taken advantage of by the men around her who kind of wanted to rule in her place. So our heroine is basically going to travel to Spain and go on a bit of a farcical adventure there. So it is, yeah, it will be different, but I think the humor will, will stay the same.

Brett Benner: 24:54

That's fantastic. What do you read? Like, what is your go-to?

Jo Harkin: 24:58

I mean so much, but in the context of this, the, I'll talk about the things that like really fed this novel. One huge one was Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders. I dunno, have you read that one? I loved it. Yeah. Loved it. Well, I'm not surprised you loved it. It's it would kind of, it actually really helped with the writing of this one at, at the time when I was sort of just writing stupid jokes and thinking like, no one is going to like this. People are gonna think that this is just, yeah, this stupid knockoff, like, not, not mantel. What, what even is it? But it re I, and then I reread Lincoln in the bar because it'd been quite a while since I read it. And I think. I, I'd kind of forgotten how absurd it is and how, you know, you've got, it's incredibly moving and poignant. Just beautiful. But then you have this ghost wandering round with a huge direction for most of it, and that, that was like my kind of like North Star, like every time I felt lacking in confidence that maybe I'd been too ridiculous. I thought about this, this ghost and George Saunders and I, and it gave me the confidence to sort of plow on and, and do something silly of my own. So that was such a massive inspiration and yeah, I. Hopefully, hopefully my book is sort of its own its own beast, but I think it, hopefully it shares that sort of spirit with, with Lincoln in the Bardo if yeah, if it's not presumptuous to even think it.

Brett Benner: 26:16

No, no, no. I don't think it is at all. Okay,

Jo Harkin: 26:19

thanks. Other writers I love, I mean, I do love mantel Francis Buffet, I don't know how, how well known he is in America. He was really great like Golden Hill. Do you know that one?

Brett Benner: 26:31

No, I dunno that, I dunno him.

Jo Harkin: 26:32

It, so it's a historical, but it's, it's got a twist, which actually, do you know what I can't even say. It's a big spoiler. So, but it's like a, a really sideways history and I love that. And then other, other writers who just did an experimental take on history, like Nicola Barker was a big one. She's, she's very funny, very like formally inventive. And yeah, Susanna Clark actually who wrote Jonathan Strange and Dr. Norell, even though that's sort of an alternate history, I really love her style and that sense of like other worldliness that permeates her writing and, and that sort of, that influenced me also, I.

Brett Benner: 27:05

Well, I just have to say the book is so fantastic. I'm so excited for you you know, wandering into this new realm of history, alternative history or whatever it is. But I. Please people go out and get the book. Buy independent if you can. And like, what a gorgeous cover. I love this cover so much too. I think they just did a spectacular job.

Jo Harkin: 27:28

They really did. It is beautiful. I'm, I'm so pleased with it.

Brett Benner: 27:31

Well, I'm really excited for you. I'm really excited for the book, so congratulations and you know, I hope it's a big fat hit.

Jo Harkin: 27:40

Thank you so much. It is I'm really glad you enjoyed it and thank you for reading it. It's, it's a big, big guy, so well.

Brett Benner: 27:50

No, it, but it, you know what, it's so engaging. And that's the thing, like, I love, personally, I love a big book, but if it can grab me and, you know that's the other thing and, and it certainly does that. So for anybody who's intimidated by sides do not be. Brilliant. Which only seemed appropriate joke for this book,

Jo Harkin: 28:08

I think. Yeah, totally. You really nailed it. I think that that's

Brett Benner: 28:15

Thank you again Joe, and if you enjoyed this conversation or other conversations I've had with some of your favorite authors, please consider liking and subscribing on your podcast platform of choice. Another thing that would be really helpful if you have a moment is give a review. Five stars and review only helps the profile of my podcast grow. Which is only gonna help me continue to bring these conversations to you. Thank you all so much and I will be back next week.