Behind The Stack

Sarah Damoff, The Bright Years

• Brett Benner • Season 2 • Episode 33

Share episode

In this episode Brett sits down with author Sarah Damoff for her debut novel, "The Bright Years" The discuss her work as a social worker, her unique path to publishing the book, the challenge of loving someone with an addiction, and finding grace in our children and the generosity of childhood.

Sarah's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/sarahdamoff/

Sarah's website:

https://www.sarahdamoff.com

the cover art artist:

https://www.instagram.com/youngparkartist/

If you like what you're hearing on this podcast please subscribe so you never miss an episode!

Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack

Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack

Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack

Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com

Brett Benner:

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack. I'm gonna get right into it because there are a lot of good books coming out today that I wanted to really quickly talk about, starting with Marie Helene Bertino's Exit Zero, a series of short stories. I came late to the game with Marie Helene Bertino, and. I had read Beauty Land this year and I flipped out over it, and I just thought it was so smart and so moving. So I haven't read this yet, but I'm really excited to read it, despite my, sometimes aversion to short stories, but really excited about this one. Also this week is Zeal the latest novel by Morgan Jerkins. the New York Times bestselling author of, this Will Be My Undoing and Caul Baby Returns, with an epic, multi-generational novel that illuminates the legacy of slavery and the power of romantic love. This looks great. then an Italian novel that's actually older that's finally been translated and is soon to be a major film adaption. It's called Separate Rooms by Pierre Vitor to Deli. It's a story of love and youth and pain that will have you clutching at, your heart. I want everyone to read it. I want to press it into people's hands. Surely one of the best novels I've ever read that was author Andrew Scott Greer. Who of course is the Pulitzer Prize winning author of Less and Less is Lost. I hear this is very much a book for the Call Me by Your Name, crowd, and then another book that's coming out today that I think looks really interesting is called The Fantasies of Future Things by Doug Jones. It says, in this powerful debut reminiscent of Barry Jenkins, Moonlight, two men in Atlanta reconciled their human dignity against the price of their professional ambitions, working for a real estate development company, displacing black residents in preparation for the 1996 Olympics. It's a really great cover, but that comes out today as well. The last book I wanna talk about, is Jo Harkens the Pretender, Jo Harken will be on the show. actually later this week, and this is a fantastic historical novel. It's been compared and said for people who are fans of Wolf Hall, and I totally get that. I was not a big of a fan as Wolf Hall, as many people are, but I absolutely loved this. It's a, a, a part of history that many people don't know. and it's. Also terribly funny and very bawdy so that's out today as well. Now onto today's author. I am really pleased to have Sarah Damoff, whose debut book The Bright Years comes out today. Sarah has a really interesting story about how she got this book published, and I can't wait for y'all to hear it. So without further ado, please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I am so happy to be sitting down with debut author Sarah Dema for her new book, the Bright Years, which is so fantastic. I have to tell you, like I read this last week and it was almost a one sit read for me. I just flew through it, but I finished the book and I, you know, not gonna lie, had shed a few tears and as I was wiping my face, I was like. Oh my God, people are going to love this thing. And honestly, I've already gone through so many of the Good Reads reviews, and so many people are loving it. So congratulations. It's, it's, it's really great.

Sarah Damoff:

Thank you so much and thank you for having me here today. I'm excited to talk about the book and thank you for reading it and all of your encouraging words. Know,

Brett Benner:

Before we launch into the book, I did wanna talk a little bit about you and how you got to this point. where, where did you end up going to college?

Sarah Damoff:

I went to the University of North Texas.

Brett Benner:

but you weren't always a Texas person, right?

Sarah Damoff:

I was born in Dallas.

Brett Benner:

Oh, you were?

Sarah Damoff:

And Yes, and so I've lived, uh, I, I moved around a lot due to just family circumstances, but it was always kind of within the DFW Metroplex. Except for, during college I spent six months in India. That's my time outside of Texas. So

Brett Benner:

was that like study abroad or was that

Sarah Damoff:

It ended up, so I really, I went on a short trip and I loved it and I wanted to go back and I was teaching and working with children over there and I was just gonna take time like off school'cause I wanted to go so badly and I got the opportunity and then I ended up. Thinking, well, I'm working with kids, could I use this as my practicum?'cause I was studying child development, so I was able to use it and I mean the school was like, this is one of the coolest, you know, practicums we've ever had a student do. So.

Brett Benner:

Was that an incredible experience?

Sarah Damoff:

It was so incredible. I, I would love, I've been back multiple times, but not with my children. So now I would really love to take my children. Yeah. It was amazing. Wow. Wow. How amazing. But other than that, I'm a, I'm a Texas girl.

Brett Benner:

Texas, through and through.

Sarah Damoff:

Yes.

Brett Benner:

okay. And so then you, now you moved into social work, correct?

Sarah Damoff:

Yes. Yes.

Brett Benner:

And. Let me see if I got this correct. It was Child Protection, child Rights in Theory and Practice. You got your ge, your degree from Harvard? Yes.

Sarah Damoff:

That's a certificate? Yes.

Brett Benner:

Okay. So explain to me then, because I have a, a dear friend of mine who's a social worker in, um, new Orleans, and her specialization is infant adoption.

Sarah Damoff:

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner:

But so what is your specialization?

Sarah Damoff:

Foster care.

Brett Benner:

Okay. Yes. And you've been doing that for. 19 years.

Sarah Damoff:

This is long. I mean, I started volunteering at a children's advocacy center with foster children and got very involved, like when I was still late in high school and I started college studying elementary education and then was just like, I'm so happy for the people who can do this and teach, but I specifically just wanna be working. In nonprofit and with foster children and in social work. And so I pivoted to to focus on that.

Brett Benner:

And is some of that about placement? Is that what you do? I. For foster children?

Sarah Damoff:

That's a great question. I've done many things in that field, so I, one of the first things I did was residential treatment, which is where they're all living in one center. Mm-hmm. Um, getting care at that center. And I worked there as an educational counselor and, um. I transitioned, I did some curriculum, some family training. Most recently, for about seven years, I was on the court side of things. Okay. So a guardian ad litem. So we are assigned to the case of the foster child as soon as they enter state custody, when they're removed from their family. And we just get completely involved in the case so that we can make a recommendation to the judge in terms of permanent placement.

Brett Benner:

How this is such a, and I always ask this'cause I talk to my friend a lot about this. How do you, it's gotta be tough and how do you not get pulled down by it? How do you stay kind of above the fray to a degree and keep your, not your wits, but I just think it has to be so emotionally. Tough.

Sarah Damoff:

Mm. I don't always, um, I starting out particularly back a long time ago now, when I, when I was working in residential treatment, it was an extremely intense and a very high turnover rate. social work in general is a very high turnover rate because. Of, of a lot of issues and a lot of things, but, not least of all how difficult it is emotionally. so, so it's, there was a learning curve and it was a process, and I didn't mention this, but my husband and I also fostered a baby for a while. Wow. And that's all we were doing. I was home with our, biological kids and the foster baby. And there are a lot of things. In social work you can't do when you're actively a foster parent at the same time. So that's what we did for a little while. after that I kind of had this like reckoning of, you know, I also have to take care of my, my own heart and mind. Mm-hmm. And that's when I started, what I was most recently doing, which is on the court side of things and. It's a little bit less of the intensity was certainly less than being a foster parent and being in, in residential treatment and for the season of life that I'm in, it felt like this is a perfect fit because, I feel like I'm able to make a difference. I'm able to keep some work life balance. I have three children, biological children of my own, and so able to, finally reach a little bit of balance with that. But, you know, I also reached a point where I just thought, I, you know, you, you get a new case of a new child and you just cry over it. And I just thought, but I wouldn't want it any differently. I wouldn't want to get to the point where I feel numb about this. And, and that's also a danger in the job, you know? Sure. And so, um, so I don't want that. I, I'd rather, I'd rather it hurt.

Brett Benner:

Wow. Yeah, and I think it's any job that I, I, first of all, any job that deals with young children and their vulnerabilities and all of that, you know, I, I think it's amazing what you do, and I think it's a, it's one of those. Jobs, kind of like teachers that are not immediately understood and also, um, not, uh, appreciated to the level they need to be because of what you're actually doing. So I'm so curious then how the transition or the inspiration for the writing began and did some of that come out of these experiences that you were going through? And tell me about the writing and how that started and mm-hmm. There's a part of you that in the back of your mind that you were like, I also wanna write and do this, or had you always done that?

Sarah Damoff:

That, that's a great question and I love that we're transitioning from having been talking about foster care and social work, because it definitely was connected for me. I have always enjoyed writing, but I never considered doing anything, you know, just, it was just for myself. It was just a way to process things, um, my whole life. But yes, I didn't have any particular training or thought about, certainly never thought about writing a novel. I, after I started working with foster children, I would just in private journals, you know, write about each child and some of those experiences, and I got to the point where I found myself, you know, wanting to share some of that. But you can't because it's confidential. That's another thing that makes it hard. You feel like you kind of have to hold it all on yourself. And I read a book in 2020. You may be familiar with the Lost Children Archive.

Brett Benner:

no you're not.

Sarah Damoff:

It's about child migrant specifically. It's a very well done novel. It was really timely and for whatever reason, this sounds very obvious to say now, but that was the novel that first kind of inspired me to think I can write about, I can fictionalize. What I've experienced and what I've witnessed Mm. And have characters that are new, but it's, but it's based on what I know to be true about this general field or this general demographic. And I could write something fiction and it just was this kind of light bulb epiphany. that again sounds obvious, but I think like the day I finished Lost Children Archive, I was like, I'm gonna try to fictionalize some of what I've experienced. And, and that was, that was my first inspiration and attempt. And I actually wrote. A manuscript that I didn't end up doing anything with. That was in 2020, and then 2021 was when I wrote The Bright Years.

Brett Benner:

Wow. And when you started The Bright Years then, and, and, and in a second, I want you to. Well, maybe I should do this first since we're getting into it. For our listeners or our viewers, do you have a, an, an elevator pitch or a log line for the book?

Sarah Damoff:

sure. Yes. It's a little longer than a log line with the story.

Brett Benner:

That's, that's okay. It can be an, it can be a big elevator.

Sarah Damoff:

Okay, great. We're gonna go a few, a few floors up. Yes.

Brett Benner:

We can go up stories. Yes, we can. Like Empire State Building.

Sarah Damoff:

I love it. Oh my goodness. Okay, so the BRE ears follows the family through several decades. We start with Ryan and Lillian Bright's love story. We see them fall in love and get married and then have a daughter. And some things start to come out from their past that they've kind of been keeping, they haven't been forthright with each other or really with themselves about some, some secrets and some wounds that they have in their past. And as those do they begin to come up for, then their daughter comes of age watching their marriage struggle and having to learn for herself, who are my parents? What decisions did they make even before I was born that might impact my life and how I live my life? Um, and so it really just explores the themes of just generational impact as we follow this family very intimately through a few decades.

Brett Benner:

That was excellent. And by the way, your building wasn't even that tall, so that was, that was, that was very concise.

Sarah Damoff:

Thank you.

Brett Benner:

Yeah, and people have been, saying that for fans of Mary Beth Keen and Claire Lombardo and those, that's kind of right on. And I love both those authors and for people who love those authors, I think this is gonna be like, you know, the kind of the Cinderella perfect fit, for those readers. But now where my question started for you, based on what you were saying is who was your centerpiece at first for this? Like, what was your inspiration? Where did you kind of the access point for the story to launch off?

Sarah Damoff:

Great question. Um, surprisingly, I, I feel that it surprises many people, but it began as mother and daughter, so Lillian and Georgette, and originally I wrote, this was an entire novel in letters. It was the, my initial title was called The Bright Letters. And when I. Wrote it, rewrote it to not be epistolary. It became the bright years, but it was originally, the conceit was when a mother or any parent, but in this case it was a mother has these things in her past and then she has a child and you're, and you're looking at this child and you're like, at some point I'm, I'm gonna wanna tell you. Who I am. Mm. And these things that maybe are heavier and there's no magic line as a parent where all of a sudden you're like, okay, my child's now old enough. She's ready to, to hear these things about, you know, who I was before she was born. And so that was the conceit, was this mother not really knowing how to do it. And even as her daughter was a baby, beginning to just write letters to think, I, I wanna tell her about this, but maybe it's things she hasn't even told other people. and so that was the original conceit, and Ryan, who is now a very central character, the book sort of starts and ends with him. At first, he was kind of just a, he was Georgette's father, but then he was kind of just a part of Lillian's past that she was gonna be telling Georgette about. And as she started telling her daughter about her father. And I started giving Ryan a voice. He became much more central. He, he just refused to be a stereotype and he needed just a lot more complexity and humanity than he would've had if she were to just tell her daughter, this is who your dad was, but he's gone now. He, he couldn't stay that way. That was my original plan, but it's not what happened. So. Wow.

Brett Benner:

And, and did and did a lot of that come. Once you started working with an editor in terms of the revision process, or was that something that you just started to figure out yourself?

Sarah Damoff:

It was way before I worked with an editor. It was within the first draft. I realized he was gonna be a bigger character and then with each revision he, he started taking a little bit more space on the page. and in the story, so that it was pretty, I honestly, once I, I sold the book and worked with an editor. Of course we did do edits, but, I think she would've said it, it was a pretty light edit. I had worked on the book, for. Almost two years at the point. At that point. So,

Brett Benner:

and I'm so curious, especially for people who are writing themselves. Did you have an agent at that point already or had you just blindly started to send the manuscript out?

Sarah Damoff:

Um, Brett, I had nothing. I, I didn't know what a query letter was, which is, you know, what you pitch an agent with. Yeah. I had no idea like anything about publishing the, how the industry works, how you get a novel published, the di, the different options for publishing. You've got traditional or self-publishing. I didn't know any of that. I always have been a big reader, but like many readers I didn't pay attention to, which publishing houses were on the. Fine of the book or mm-hmm. Any of the, you know, I usually didn't read the acknowledgements. I just was, was reading. And so, that was all a very new, big process and learning curve for me. I drafted it in about two months. It was very fast. Wow. Wow. It was, I was, I, I don't outline, so it kind of a discovery writer. So it's, I I kind of describe it as like. It's like an amplified reading experience where you're just like, the story just kind of comes out and I'd, you know, I'd get so excited. I'm like, what's gonna happen next? And I really couldn't figure it out until I just. Started typing it. So it's, it's, it's almost addictive to just keep going.'cause you're like, just in the same way you wanna turn the pages when you're reading. It was like, I just need to see what story's gonna come out here. So, um, it was, I have to do a lot of work in revisions because of that.'cause I draft very fast to kind of learn the story. It's almost like a glorified, it almost is a glorified outline, but it's written, it's written in prose.'cause that's just how I am able to discover the story. So the first draft, yeah, that was two months. It was very fast. I did, I showed it to a few people, you know, friends and family, and I, I kind of set it aside, forgot about it, didn't touch it for, gosh, at least like six months and the following summer. I was starting to listen to podcasts about publishing and start to think about that learn, and I just felt compelled to. Open it back up and really dig into research, how do I do this if I wanna get this published? And, um, just as I learned more, I was revising the manuscript, revising my pitch, and it was about a year later. Um, so it was August. September of 2023, um, that I signed with my agent. And then a few weeks later we sold it. I was speaking with editors at several of the major houses and then we sold it, um, in a preempt to Simon and Schuster. So that part was. Definitely a whirlwind.

Brett Benner:

Wow. You are literally like Lana Turner at the counter, at the soda shop with the person who sits next to them and says, I'm gonna make you a movie star, because that's, that's incredible. what an inspiration. That's, that's amazing. That's really, really amazing. Congratulations.'cause you don't always hear about it that way. It's, you know what I mean? That's great.

Sarah Damoff:

Thank you. Yeah, I, I mean, I'll say it was, I worked very hard, but I know that there are people that, that spend a lot longer and I feel so grateful for the, the agent editor I was able to connect with.'cause they have just been perfect. And yeah. And like I said, I just, I was so green, I didn't, I didn't know anything. I was, I know the first few emails I sent to agents were totally quote unquote wrong. They were not, you know, they were just, there was just me talking. I didn't know there was. A particular format that was expected or any of that. So I learned that slowly over time.

Brett Benner:

And in, in a way though, I wonder if that kind of, for lack of a better word, naivete worked to your benefit mm-hmm. Because mm-hmm. You, there was not an extra kind of, if you did put that, um, burden on yourself or that expectation that could have impeded certain something. Do you know what I mean? So for this, you could just kind of be like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, but here it is. Right. And like, you let the work speak for itself. So it's so awesome.

Sarah Damoff:

Right? That is, I, by the time I got my agent, I did have a good, you know, more appropriate professional pitch, I think. But, but I think you're right. And that's something that in the end, I was able to feel that much more confident in the work because I was like, you know, I just, I had no connections in the industry. I, I have no platform. I cold pitched people and I sold the book. So there must be something good in it. That's all I could tell. Yeah, I would tell myself was just like, there's no other reason I would get a book deal other than the book being worthwhile. So, no.'cause there's too

Brett Benner:

much, right? There's too much stuff there going through and there's too many options, so no, a hundred percent. All right, so talking about these characters, they're all so great. In their own right and in, in very different ways. Lillian just to start with, because she kind of is the, the launch off point of these people to me, she's really interesting and I, I I wanna go back to something you said earlier, which is so true when you're talking about children and at what point, um, it's appropriate to kind of let your child in on. Your own history and your own life, because I feel like you know. When we're all kids, you, you look at your parents as the people that you know feed you. They love you. They do all the things they're supposed to do. You don't look at them as separate individuals who have a life, who had a life previous. I once had an English teacher who said, a child's biggest disappointment is when they realize their father is infallible and just human. Yes. And their second is when they realize their mother is the same way as well. Yes. And I've always thought about that. Um, and even in parenting, do you. Like, do you find that as a parent, and do you also find like, you know, at what point are things appropriate to talk about? Because also I think parenting has changed so radically from, I know from when I was raised and how I was raised and what we talk about. And I think part of that is due and. Part to the fact that most kids have access to like a computer in their pocket 24 hours a day, and there's such a dissemination of information that's happening that we were never privy to. Right.

Sarah Damoff:

Right.

Brett Benner:

So, do you find that, like with your own kids and, and how do you, what do you hold back and what do you actually share, I guess?

Sarah Damoff:

That's a great question. yes. I think it's interesting because, you know, not all of us have children, but all of us have parents. Yeah. Everyone has parents and we, and so my first experience with this kind of. Theme of when does a parent disclose to their child more about life and their life in particular? My first experience with that was as a daughter. So as a daughter, learning who are my parents, and what things did they choose to tell me? What things did I have to figure out for myself? And questions that you have for your parents and that, you know, I had, my first child in my early twenties, so maybe it's because I had children young that. That still felt kind of fresh to me. My own journey with now I'm an adult, figuring out who my parents were and, and just as we age, even if, if your parents are very open with you, you still, you still think about things differently, questions you didn't know to have when you were 15 years old. All of a sudden when you're 22, you're like, wait, how did, did this happen to my parents? How did they do this? Yeah. So it's just something that on the child side, everybody experiences. And so that was very much, in my mind becoming a parent and now having three kids who are hitting teenage years. I'm definitely, I'm very open with them. It's interesting with, you know. My working in social work and working with children for so many years, I'm very aware of what's developmentally appropriate and just kind of using, my general, my children are very sharp and I think all children are, I think a lot of times we, we underestimate, and I know I have degrees of this as a child, I remember. My parents think I don't understand something, but I do. They think I didn't see something, but I did. and I think most people have at least a memory or two like that from being a child, and we really underestimate. And so my general rule is to, to share with them and response. So I might not initiate. Unless it's something that I'm, you know, it's just super important that I talk to'em about, I'm not gonna initiate, let me tell you this thing about how That's right. Heavy the world is, but rather when they come to me with a question or they bring something up, or they tell a story about something they saw or they heard, then I'll meet them there and I'll meet them. I'll, and I think they know. I, they do because we have very open and they, they'll come to me first with their questions. I think they know that I will be honest with them. I'm not, I'm going to, I'm gonna meet them at the level of their question and I'll be honest with them. whether it's a question about me personally or just. The world in general. so I don't know if that answers your question.

Brett Benner:

No, no, it does. It's a, and it, no, it doesn't. It's a hundred percent. I was like, I was like, new parents, take note. This is a great advice. And, and I did, we did the same thing, which is basically if a question was asked, we would only give as much as was asked of us. So if, if, if there's something asked, we would answer that part of the question. If it, if it invoked another question, we would continue, but it didn't necessarily mean I. Let's sit down and have this whole conversation about, you know, global warming or whatever. Right, right. Um, well, I'll answer as succinctly and as appropriately as I can this question that's being asked. Exactly. Yes. because I do agree with you and, and I think it, it speaks to, and Georgette the daughter as well. Mm-hmm. We do, kids do understand so much more than we do to give them credit for, and there is, I think, a built in, Well, I wanna say empathy mm-hmm. That exists within all children that for whatever reason, gets beat out. And I don't mean physically, but I just mean beat out by life. And I think that, um, Ryan is a prime example of that. The father in this, of someone who had a really horrible childhood and kind of the generational effect of what this is. Absolutely. Um, so. It's also interesting too because, um, and I, I don't, I'm not gonna give any spoilers away at all, but, but, there is an incident that happens in Lillian's past that is integral to her when they're talking about secrets. And secrets exist in this book in a lot of context. But I had to read this passage that I thought. It was, uh, look, I'm not a woman. I'll never completely understand this feeling or even having the opportunity to carry a child, right. And the responsibility that comes with that. But I loved this moment because I think this speaks to so many women that, Lillian gets pregnant and this is an early on before. Mm-hmm. She's, this is an early part of her life. Right. And it says, um. What kind of woman gives away a child? I could have kept him or had an abortion legalized a few months ago, except I couldn't do that when it came down to it. Sometimes a woman's choice is between impossible and impossible and impossible, and she just has to make it. Survival calculations become more urgent than rightness. I just thought that was such an amazing. Passage and I think it will speak to so many women because there are these impossible choices that you have to live with. And that Lillian ends up, uh, bearing up and doing what she feels is right, and having no idea about what those ramifications or how it's gonna play out later in so many ways, both emotionally and, and, and beyond.

Sarah Damoff:

Absolutely.

Brett Benner:

So I just thought that was great.

Sarah Damoff:

Thank you.

Brett Benner:

Um, Georgette, she speaks so much to me about the resilience of the human spirit. Hmm. And the way that, we as humans, as individuals, and especially children. Survive in, in the face of, huge obstacles. can you talk a little bit about her?

Sarah Damoff:

Yes, I think, I think you're right. And I love that you said that. I haven't thought of it in those exact terms that, you know, just seeing resilience. Through her. I think that, um, you know, we see her in this book. One thing I wanted to do with this book was a long arc of what it's like to live. I mean, it's, it's no spoiler or secret that Ryan struggles with addiction. He has alcoholism. Mm-hmm. And it is not something where he just, within a few years, he's sober. It's a, it's many decades of a struggle. And so it's as, it's really all of Georgette's life. And I think something that in varying degrees is true for many parents is we experience or glimpse. A particular kind of grace from our children and you know, whether it's something huge like what Ryan and Georgette experienced or whether it's something smaller. I know I've had moments where it's like my children see me with. Such generous eyes. They, you know, when I, I've made mistakes or I've made a mistake that hurts them or hurts their feelings. And they're so, they're so gracious and forgiving and, that, like you talked earlier about just this kind of natural empathy that's their, in particular, with parents, children can be very, you know, almost to a fault. Protective of their parents, like, yep, a hundred percent. And, and it's something that, that Georgette has to learn as she goes through adolescence and into adulthood and, and she has to grapple with, you know, she's not perfect at all either. And so she has to grapple with, a child will always want to have a good relationship with their parent. So she has that, but she also, they also have periods of estrangement and times where he really hurts her. And, you know, the kind of generosity of childhood naturally, and probably it's healthy. She, she then has to learn how to, what to do with that pain and with that anger toward him. And, and she does that and that's a big wrestle in her own life. And then that. You know, maybe she can't even articulate as she, as she's younger, but when she gets older, just having to try to make sense of herself and the ways that she might even see her dad in her and, where she's gonna land in terms of. Now, how do I see him? How do I relate to him now that I'm an adult? And how am I like him and what do I do with that? So I think those are some of her big questions that she's, that her character is asking in this story.

Brett Benner:

Well, and it's really beautiful how you've carried, cause Ryan's an artist. Mm-hmm. And he has a gallery. Mm-hmm. And the way that translates. To her as well, becoming a photographer. I really thought that was so beautiful, the kind of way it could, uh, there there can be some kind of flower in the dirt, for lack of a better way of saying it really was. I thought, oh my God, this is so beautiful. And I think it's a fun part about being a parent is watching in your children, what, uh, things are similar and what come out and what, you know mm-hmm. What things are, are, are developing. It's a really cool thing.

Sarah Damoff:

Absolutely. And if I can just say too,'cause just with what you're saying, I think it's so important, and this was something I think this is probably something that's really resonating from the people I've heard from who have. Lived with and loved someone who has an addiction. What was important to me throughout the book was showing these moments of closeness and affection. And, because otherwise you're like, why isn't, why does she care about, why do they care about each other so much? But the reality is when you, when you love someone with an addiction, usually you're still, in this case for sure, you're still having. Fun together. Yeah. You're laughing together. You, I mean, the reason it hurts so much is because you love them so much that otherwise the pain wouldn't be as heightened as it is. But, and because there's so much back and forth because when they're doing well or when you think they're doing well, you, you're having this great time together and you're feeling that closeness of parent and child in Ryan and Georgette's case and then. You're like, what did you do now? That's, that's why it hurts so much. Every time he, he goes back to the bottle and, and hurts her, doesn't show up because there are still times where he is showing up and there and it's just a very human, real, you know, I think it does happen, but it's the, it's a rare case where it's just so extreme where, um, it's just an awful relationship. Most sure. I, I interviewed people and, and everyone I, I spoke with. It just, it was a, it's a very, it's a very back and forth. It's, you know, otherwise you would just cut them out of your lives. But it's like, you just can't do that because you care about them and, and maybe you see that they're really trying.

Brett Benner:

Yep. And they had a good history. Yes. It's not like it started immediately and it was toxic and he was abusive. Right. It wasn't that. So it's something that developed, which is also very real. I mean, certainly I think everybody knows about people in relationships that I. No one goes into a relationship thinking, I really want this to suck. You know, you're, you're with that person for a reason and hopefully you are, you know, finding the support and the love and all of the things that constitute a healthy and lasting relationship. But they did have that. Mm-hmm. So it's just something that, it makes sense to me why Lillian wants so badly to believe. Mm-hmm. Like you said, he's trying, he, you know, it's not just, It's just the cycle and, and, and it's, and it's rough.

Sarah Damoff:

And I think he's made a lot of progress, even generationally because what we know of his dad, which is of course much less, that was, that was a more difficult relationship. Sure. He, he still comes into the addiction and struggles with the addiction, but he does. So much better than his own father did. And so even though there's this kind of generational pain and trauma, you still see some progress and there's reason for hope in that. And of course that, you know, that makes the whole back and forth that much more confusing when their characters are living through it. But you're right, he's, he's trying the whole time and he's aware when he fails and he's trying to protect them from his failures.

Brett Benner:

A hundred percent. Because of this, what happens with Lillian and Lillian, and Georgette, um, you know, are living in an apartment there, there's such a also theme in this that I love so much and, and I talk about this on this podcast with other authors. A lot of the idea of found family versus your given family. Yes. She has this great friend Shauna next door, who has a son. and. They're just such great characters in it and, and I loved this idea of these two moms coming together with their children and then the longevity of that too. It's really beautiful to see. I just thought it was a great addition to the fabric of the book.

Sarah Damoff:

Mm-hmm. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. I think found family is so important and friendships and female friendships in particular, and as adults, those even, even when you might have a healthy marriage, there are certain things that you, you just, you have to have more than just your spouse. Those friendships are so important, and especially when you know your kids. Can have another adult to look up to and things like that. So thank you for saying that. Yeah,

Brett Benner:

no, sure. Um, one thing I wanted to ask you really quick was your cover is so beautiful and there's a picture on your Instagram with I the original art. Now, is that your painting?

Sarah Damoff:

Oh no. Well now it is because I purchased it. So, what the story with the cover is that I had, you know, told the team at Simon Schuster when we were talking about cover. I told them I think it would be cool if it could be painted. And of course, even the font is painted on this cover because Ryan is a painter. and so what they came back to me with is they found. This artist who's a painter in South Korea, her name is Young Park, and she had this painting, which is now the book cover, and that's the only one we ever looked at because it just was immediately the perfect cover for this story. Just kind of the picture of need and humanity and hope at the same time, all represented by her painting. And so because they did this. In this way, they just found a paint, an artist with her painting, I was able to purchase the original painting from her. So that all came from, you know, Simon Sheer finding the cover, and then I was able to purchase it and it now hangs at my house, so. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. It's so special

Brett Benner:

and I will. When these episodes go up, I'm gonna link her Instagram page as well Please.'cause I went and looked at all of her stuff. Yes. And she's beautiful artist. It's beautiful. But it also, um, it's so vibrant, like the picture on your wall, I mean, the cover is so gorgeous, but to see the colors kind of explode, you know, it's, it's really stunning. Um. I have to say, and, and, and in closing, I'm not giving anything away, but not every book sticks The landing. Mm. This absolutely sticks The landing and. It is finished. So movingly and beautifully that, uh, kudos to you. I, I thought it was, I thought it was great.

Sarah Damoff:

Thank you so much. So,

Brett Benner:

so everyone get the bright years, it's, it's simply. Fantastic. I, I really, I cannot believe this is a debut. It's so self-assured and, and really stunning, buy independent, if you're able to buy independent. and of course you can always go to my bookshop.org page and it will be there as well. Sarah, this was so delightful. You're, you're just lovely. I'm, congratulations on all of it. It's, it's really, really, really exciting.

Sarah Damoff:

Thank you for everything. Thank you for having me today, Brett.

Brett Benner:

Thank you again, Sarah, and if you like this conversation and other conversations that you've been hearing, please consider liking and subscribing to the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. And another thing. If you can give a rating, five stars would be incredible. But also if you have the time to write a review, everything helps and that will only help the podcast get seen by more people so that I can continue to do this. Have a great week, and thanks again for listening