Behind The Stack

Mysteries & Thrillers With Renee from ItsBookTalk

• Brett Benner • Season 1 • Episode 8

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In this episode Brett chats with Renee from ItsBookTalk about a treasure trove of mystery and thrillers titles. From series to stand alones there is probably something for everyone here who likes their whodunnits, and the perfect selection for Spooky season! 

Renee's Substack: 
https://itsbooktalk.substack.com/?utm_source=global-search

Renee's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/itsbooktalk/


Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack

Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack

Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack

Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com

Brett Benner:

So I'm really happy to have Renee with me today from it's book talk. If follow her on her sub stack and I will have all of her information below and my show notes formally of the podcast, book talk, et cetera. And so I'm thrilled you're here. We're going to be talking mysteries and thrillers. Yes.

Renee:

Hello. Thank you. I am so happy. And when we talked about getting together, I mean, we were both like, what do we talk about? Well, I mean. We have to talk about what brought us together. So mysteries and thrillers it is. And I am so happy to be back on the mic.

Brett Benner:

So you left the podcast and then you really kind of dive deep into your Substack and how's that been going?

Renee:

It's great. I love Substack. Gosh, I've probably been on Substack about 18 months, maybe a little more. Um, so before I left the podcast, I was on Substack and it's just kind of back to my roots, which I started this whole journey of talking about books in a public way in October of 2016 with a blog and I'd set up my own WordPress. I don't even know how I just, and that just kind of started my journey of connecting with gosh, this wide world of readers that. Online, like, I mean, you and I met on Instagram, but before Instagram, I was a blogger. And then just writing about books is what I love to do as well as talking about books that just kind of came from writing about books. And then Instagram came in the mixed and, you know, sharing pictures about books, but still Instagram is share a picture, write about books, write a review. And so. Yeah. That's what I'm doing again, just kind of full circle on my sub stack. And I don't want to get on my, my sub stack soapbox, but, and I'm not getting paid to promote it, but I love it. I don't, I don't know if it's the wave of the future, but it's a platform that is allowing creators and writers. To make money finally off of their work. I mean, yes, you can write. And yes, that's mainly what I'm doing is writing about books and reading. And I'm going to branch out into some other topics, but they've also allowed. Creators to add in audio. So I'm also doing audio in mine. I'm not talking to anybody. I'm just getting on the mic and talking to my readers and maybe once a month I'm doing that. But then they also just added in the option for creators to do video. So you, it's like a one stop shop. You can, you as a creator can do. Whatever you feel like doing, but ultimately the majority of

Brett Benner:

people on there are writing. First of all, you've totally sold me. And I feel like I, there's, there should be a flashing light saying join here where you get some kind of kickback, but it does, it sounds amazing. And I know I've had conversations with other people who are really loving it and kind of what you just said in terms of options it gives you creatively.

Renee:

Yes. Yeah. I think it reminds me of the old days. Of Twitter and Instagram.

Brett Benner:

That's what it, that's what it sounds like. And you know what it sounds like to, for lack of a better word to describe, way to describe this, I'm thinking of like going back to dumb phones versus like the smart phone where people are, it's really just still down to being creative without all the outside noise. That's what it seems like to me, because, you know, we've talked about this a lot. Cause yes, we met on Instagram and we really began to chat during the pandemic and during lockdown, which is where I think a lot of people for me, that's where really I found that world of bookstagram and it was so, I thought it was so special and I met like you and. Some really wonderful people who I've gone beyond and we've met in real life,

Renee:

which is

Brett Benner:

always that weird moment of like, okay, we're going to meet in real life. I always love those stories because when you're telling, you know, your husband, your wife, your partner, and you're saying, well, I'm going to meet blah, blah, blah. And they're like, well, where do you know them from? From Instagram.

Renee:

Do

Brett Benner:

you need me to go with you? Or like, do you have a rape whistle? And I get it, but I'm like, no, you don't understand. They're so nice. We talk books. Like. How violent are they going to become? Like, we're literally talking about Don Winslow.

Renee:

I know. I know. Which

Brett Benner:

was our big thing. That's where we first bonded, over Don Winslow.

Renee:

We did. We did. Right. You asked me about The Power of the Dog by Don Winslow, which I had posted about, and you had said, I'm kind of new to Instagram, and you're one of the only people I've seen talking about this book. And that's how we connected, over the book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Over a violent thriller book.

Brett Benner:

A violent, huge, epic, dealing with mobsters and brutal deaths.

Renee:

Exactly. Cartels, all the things, but, um, yeah, that was great. Bookstagrammers aren't violent. The books they like are. I binged them. Back to back to back in, I mean, I don't know how long, not that long, I couldn't stop and also the audio had it on my Kindle and one of the best epic sagas I've ever read, best thriller, you know, trilogy, which you don't get that many Outstanding thriller trilogies. I mean, there's some series, which I can talk about later, but yeah, I mean, I just, I think that trilogy is Don Winslow's calling card.

Brett Benner:

Now are mysteries there? Are they your go to?

Renee:

Yes.

Brett Benner:

I would say

Renee:

mysteries and thrillers. They're my comfort genre. They're, they're also, they're definitely my favorite thing to read, but they're just what I go to, you know, if I'm stuck or whatever over the years, I gravitate towards mysteries and thrillers always. This year is a little, just a tiny bit different as of right now, which is the first time ever in years and years. I probably. That. Literary fiction is currently sitting as my top genre of the year, which is wild, but followed very closely by thrillers.

Brett Benner:

What is your split between doing them on audio versus like the book or the Kindle? I probably

Renee:

would say I've increased my Kindle reading this year, but I'm still sitting at probably 75 percent audio. I do a lot. I love audio. I love even mysteries and thrillers on audio, but I've been listening for so many years that I can follow a story. Sometimes I do think mysteries and thrillers can be hard on audio. Especially a mystery because maybe you have different alternating perspectives. You've got to follow different people looking for clues, et cetera. And that can be. A little tricky, especially if you're new to audio. That makes sense.

Brett Benner:

It's funny cause I have grown to love audio books so much and I find they save me sometimes, right? There's just not enough time to literally sit down and read. So all the activities that you can be doing while you do audio books, although it is interesting, like you just said, the following things I, I tell people when starting with audio books, cause my sister, I just really got into audio books, but I always tell people. Start with a autobiography or a biography first, but I said, but the other thing for me are mysteries and thrillers because They will keep me captivated in the car because I do find sometimes with audio my mind can wander but mysteries and thrillers on audio I find are fantastic because if you have a good narrator It is as good as watching a movie to me. It is so riveting. Um, which was the case with those Winslow books for sure. Cause I did those on audio.

Renee:

Yes. Yes. I have a hundred percent agree. And I think Ray Porter narrated those.

Brett Benner:

Yeah, that's right. He

Renee:

was, or is, I hope not was, but an actor, which I mean, tons of actors are doing it. Doing audiobooks these days, which is fantastic, but I am I'm with you if people well if people Have similar reading tastes to me, but they may not have started audiobooks yet, I will I kind of often share my gateway fiction audiobook, which was You by Carolyn Kepnes, narrated by brilliant, amazing Santino Fontana. I remember listening to that on audio. And the whole time thinking, how did I ever think I couldn't listen to fiction on audio? This is amazing. He just brought Joe Goldberg to life in the, and if you know that book or that series or that TV show, Joe Goldberg is a sociopath who has, I mean, he's, he's funny. He is funny. He's witty. But he's, he's creepy and he's dark and it was just the best of everything. And that was my first fiction audio book. And I have since went on to read or to listen to that entire series, every book, and I will only listen to that. I've never read any of it in print. I don't think because he narrates all of it. I,

Brett Benner:

it really is the make or break, you know, what I was listening to now and Almost done with it, and it's funny because I was going to bring it up later. But it's, um, the new Richard Osman book, Um, We Solved Murders.

Renee:

Okay.

Brett Benner:

Um, and I loved, I haven't, I have all of them. I've only listened to the first one, The Thursday Murder Club, which, you know, is, is, Is great and what an incredible cast they got for the movie, but this new one, it's a whole new story. It's about a father in law and his daughter in law who become crime solvers together. It is so good, but this actress, Nicola Walker reads it and I've never seen anything. She's in cause I had to look her up because she is. Fantastic. And I'm a person who, if I listen to someone like Ray Porter, you said, I will go in to find everything else they've read and search out those books because it's, it's just a whole different experience. It really is.

Renee:

Yes. That's a great tip. Also, once, once people find an audio book narrator. That they like, then go check out their audio book narrator backlist. I've done that. It's worked out great. Saskia Marleveld. That's what I've done with her. And I found some great books that way. It's

Brett Benner:

like you're listening to a play. It's like, it's what I imagine back in the old days on just people had radio, you know what I mean? And you have these radio shows and everyone, just the family just sat around the radio. On a Sunday night, listening to something that's what I, yes, they're incredible. And this is something I'm curious with you having someone who reads a lot of mysteries and thrillers, how do you think the genre has changed or do you think it has changed my perception of things are when I started to read this. Kind of genre, which was the first things I ever read. I was reading a lot of Michael Conley. I was reading a lot of Robert Cray, Sue Grafton. They were all detectives that kind of went through different mysteries. And that's what I looked to it as. It seems to me it's evolved into a lot more the thriller part of mysteries and thrillers seems to have grown as a subgenre so much. And there's a lot of those that. I find that hard to keep up with and don't know all those. What are your impressions? Do you think, do you think stuff has changed?

Renee:

Well, when I thought about it right away, what came to mind? Yes. I think that the thriller part of the mysteries and thrillers has taken over a bit. And then I, and then I was thinking, okay, why are these two lumped together? Because they are really, they're not the same, but yet they have similar elements. And I think. When Gone Girl came out, which was what, 11 years ago now, I think that changed so much. So we have seen just such a huge uptick in psychological thrillers, in domestic thrillers, so thrillers set at home, thrillers that have to do with marriage, spouses. We never, we didn't used to see that many. Of those types of thrillers. And I think that, I don't know, what would you say even it would be a little bit of chasing the gone girl effect? Like we've been doing that, right? As

Brett Benner:

I'm kind of, cause I'm personally kind of over the unreliable narrator trope that set up all these things of like, well, who can you trust? And then I think a lot of. It seemed like a lot of writers got into, you can't just have a twist. You have to have a twist on a twist on a twist.

Renee:

Yep. Think that we have had years and years and years of writers chasing the twist you'll never see coming. And I am just, I'm personally over that. And then I was thinking. Okay. Have mysteries changed? I think that at the core, mysteries are still mysteries. When I think of mysteries, I think there's going to be a puzzle of some sort that I'm going to have to solve. And that's how it was when I was growing up. I, it was Nancy Drew and the Hardy boys and they were solving mysteries. Puzzles, right? It's I think that mysteries have kind of stood the test of time as far as puzzles go I just read my first Agatha Christie this year Which who what am I doing at calling myself a mystery lover and have not read Agatha Christie So I listened to and then there were none this summer Loved it, and I'm also gonna contradict myself with the A question later on that you, that's about tropes, but I actually really loved that book and I'm going to, you know, continue dipping into her backlist, but I just, I love a puzzle and I think in mysteries that you're going to get, that's what you're going to get. You're going to have to, you're going to have to try to put on your detective hat in some fashion and try to solve for the most part, I would say it's probably a crime, right? In most mysteries. Sure.

Brett Benner:

It's, it's funny if when you're talking about that, I was, I'm now thinking of like, who are those people that are still doing that particular thing? And the two people that kind of came to mind are Benjamin Stevenson, who wrote, everyone in my family has killed someone. And then everyone in this train is a suspect, which interesting. I don't know if you read them or listen to them, but interestingly, that second book in particular, everyone in this train, I had a really hard time following on audio, like I couldn't, I couldn't tap in, but it is that kind of thing where there's a murder taking place and the way he sets stuff up, it is very similar to that. And the other person is Janice Hallett. She wrote this book called The Appeal, and then she has three other books that came subsequent to that, but a lot of them are written in letter and you have to start to figure out. The mystery through that. So it's a really unique way of storytelling. I don't know how it will work in audio because I actually read the book. I think so much of this recent stuff is domestic stories. It's, you know, it really leans hard into the thriller and less into the mystery part of things. And maybe, maybe a little bit of Richard Osman is, is this too with his Thursday Murder Club. But then I almost feel like we're skating into the cozy mystery territory.

Renee:

But yeah, maybe I've read the first one in that and I just don't read a lot of cozy Mysteries to compare it to but I would say maybe for better or worse I'm just a more of a dark and gritty reader. And so I don't gravitate towards cozy mysteries I I don't even have good recommendations for those like one of my go to mystery authors would be I mean, Sharon Bolton writes some of the best mysteries that are so hard to figure out. I rarely ever figure her books out. I often tell people when I recommend Sharon Bolton to maybe, depending on their interests, I've recommended starting with Dead Woman Walking. Because the opening scene in that is chilling. It leaves me speechless. It involves a hot air balloon. If you love writing in a hot air balloon, you may not after, after that opening scene. But I love, love the way she plots a mystery and it is just great. I will never get tired of reading her mysteries. I haven't loved every book that she's written, but that's okay. Like I don't, you know, there's ups and downs. They're all standalones? She has both. She has one series called the, and it's called the Lacey Flint series. And book one in that series is Now You See Me. There's five books in that series. And I actually have read all of those. I actually, no, I take that back. I DNF'd the fifth one after waiting years for it. And it just did not, yeah, wasn't great. But her, and then she's got many, many standalones. Lisa Gardner. She actually is a perfect example of an author that writes mysteries, but I believe her books are categorized as thrillers because they are so fast paced. So she's a great example of. Of that overlap between mysteries and thrillers because of the pacing of her books.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. I've never read anything by her.

Renee:

Oh my gosh. Sure. She, she's one of my quote unquote old favorites. Not that she's not that she's old, but I have been reading her for years. She's the, I don't know if she's, is she now the only, she has been the only author. ever for me that I have read every single book she's published. And she has a, an extensive backlist. So I've read all of her standalones. Then she also has a detective series and the detective it's is D. D. Warren. So, um, if you're interested in, in a great detective series, then look up the D. D. Warren series. I mean, Lisa Gardner is, and she's still writing. She's got a new series with, um, Missing Persons Investigator.

Brett Benner:

The other people that I had really positive responses to, like that were new to me, were Alice Feeney and not all of her stuff worked, however. His and hers. I don't know if you read his and hers. I,

Renee:

like, I listened to it. Yes.

Brett Benner:

And it is perfection on audio. For our listeners, it's about a couple and it's a very much a marriage in crisis. You're getting his side and her side and you don't actually know what's going on. Which one to really believe, and it's done with two readers, which I think Richard Armitage is the male version of that. Yes, and Stephanie

Renee:

Racine.

Brett Benner:

That's right. It's fantastic. It is fantastic. It is

Renee:

so good. And that audio book has the creepy, voice altered perspective. That's right. Yes. Which was, it was so chilling, and so amazing. Good. I don't know that I've ever listened to another audio book that had a, a voice altered. The Killer had a voice altered perspective in that book.

Brett Benner:

It was that very kind of almost mechanical, creepy, emotionless.

Renee:

Yes. Yes. It's freaky. That's

Brett Benner:

great. So good. Um, there was two that I also really loved that I read last year. One was Greer Hendrix, The Golden Couple. I read that. I did. Wait. Wait, No, I take it back. Um, The Wife Between Us, it's Guru Hendricks and Sarah Penkinen.

Renee:

Okay, yeah. That's the one I've read.

Brett Benner:

The Wife Between Us, Anonymous Girl, and You're Not Alone. That I really enjoyed. And the other one I really liked was Janelle Brown's I'll Be You. I had never read Janelle Brown before and I liked that. But that was almost like, I would say with both of these, they were thriller light and they were mystery light. They're not the kind of the dark thing we were talking about before. They had dark moments, but I don't know that they were Have you ever read any Meg Gardner?

Renee:

No. I've been recommended Unsub many times, but I haven't read it.

Brett Benner:

Okay. It's a detective. Her name is Caitlin Hendricks, serial killer. And the first one up in the Bay area, I think you'd probably like it. And I listened to it and liked it a lot. There were a few times which I was like, Oh, come on, but What I've heard is, and I haven't continued yet, the series gets better and better as you go along, and it's, it hooks you, and it definitely, it's propulsive, which is always a great thing. I

Renee:

do love a series, I guess more of a thriller series, if I'm gonna, if I'm, well, minus the, the Lisa Gardner series, as far as mysteries, but the Orphan X series by Greg Hurwitz. Do you read, have you read that?

Brett Benner:

No.

Renee:

I feel like you would love that. And the first book is Orphan X. Scott Brick narrates If all the books, if not, if not most of them, it is such a fantastic thriller series and it is straight up thriller. I mean, there's also, I think there's a little bit of an underlying mystery, but not a mystery to solve. It's more of, it's more of a mystery as to who are some of these people, how do they connect and what are the secrets in. So and so's background. It's that sort of, like, mysterious underlying element. But it is, it's fast paced action, high stakes drama. It's really fantastic. And that's ongoing. I've read every single book in order. I do think you need to read those in order. Start with Orphan X, but it's great.

Brett Benner:

Okay. Yeah, I'm looking at it right now. It's interesting because these are customers who like this, also liked, and this is what I was thinking about when you were describing it to me, Mark Greeney and the Gray Man series. Did you ever read those? Okay, I haven't read those. Okay, I bet you would like those if you like this, then I bet you would like the Gray Man series. You know, it's funny because I was saying earlier, I was obsessed with Michael Conley. My favorite are the, Harry Bosch series. Cause I know he has the whole Lincoln lawyer series and they're fine. But for me, it's Harry Bosch. It's interesting when he started because it's, you know, he was writing these mysteries and then they started to really more very quickly into the hardcore thrillers, especially as he began to bring these killers in. And I don't know why I kind of got distracted and fell off. Although I will tell you that, um, as I was moving books around and pulling books the other day, I was literally staring at my bookcase with 25 pages of hardbacks of Michael Conley and thinking, do you really need these? Like, do you really need to continue with these? Like, are these giving you joy? Um, a lot of the early ones I had signed copies. Cause when I used to work at borders, all these authors would come through, but he was amazing. And have you ever read any Robert Cray?

Renee:

No, I haven't. And I know who you're talking about. And there's one particular book. I remember picking up, but I, no, I haven't. They're really fun. They're closer

Brett Benner:

to like a Carl Hyacinth.

Renee:

Okay.

Brett Benner:

Um, he has this detective named Elvis Cole, who's great and hilarious, but. The real kind of linchpin character in his books that everyone's obsessed with is this Vietnam vet who lives off the grid and comes in to help him who wears the Ray Ban mirrored sunglasses and is like a stealth killer. His name is Joe Pike and Joe Pike is Everything with these books. I don't know why they've never been adapted because it seems like such a joke, a no brainer to me that they haven't made a series out of it. And for all I know, they're in, you know, development somewhere, but I just saw they're doing a series. They have shot it already. I saw the trailer this morning for the new Alex cross series. Which looks amazing and I never read those the James Patterson books.

Renee:

I read though I mean, I read the you know, the old old like the first one along came a spider It's whatever the first kiss the girls. Maybe I read those years ago

Brett Benner:

hundred years ago

Renee:

I know a hundred at least gosh when you were talking about back in the old days, too Because I did read the Lincoln lawyer loved that and I used to read Michael Conley years ago But then I don't know why I've never read it I don't know if he just got, he, he got too many and I've branched out, but also Dean Koontz. I mean, he's an old, an oldie but a goodie and he's got some great thrillers in his. Backlist, um, one in particular intensity is exactly what the title says. Oh my gosh. Serial killer. It is so good. And also if you do that one on audio, which I did listen to it, get the edition that has Frankie Corso narrating. Cause there's more, there's more than one audio book. Narrow, um, edition of that. And she, yeah, it's who, if you don't mind scary in your ears, But that one's a really great one.

Brett Benner:

It's feeling like Dean Koons to me. This was like my childhood. It was Dean Koons and there was Stephen King

Renee:

and

Brett Benner:

there was Peter Straub. Those were the three. And like, I would dip into Peter Straub and I would dip into Dean Koons, but I was a Stephen King kid. And I, I, I remember going to the library and getting Carrie. I read every Stephen King book. The moment it came out, I would tell my mother, we have to go to the library today. All of them. And still today, I don't really miss much. The only change now is I will listen to a lot of them on audio. Same,

Renee:

I was, I think I was 16, I know I was 16 when I read Pet Sematary and have a visual of myself just being, I've been so scared, never been more scared and also sitting on the couch late at night by myself and still reading. And just, I loved it. But I also grew up watching Friday the 13th and loving all of that stuff. And Stephen King was like, he just went, he was right along there in book form of just that scary stuff. And he is so good at it. Well, he,

Brett Benner:

He taps into what our greatest fears are, and a lot of it is stuff that, you know, when you look back at something like Carrie, which is really this story about an outcast and like Christian fundamentalism and the things that he was actually talking about and the way that he does it, but you know, what we're watching and listening is a girl who's being, you know, just yeah. So bullied and then turns it all around and like lights everybody up on prom night. So it's like the greatest revenge story. I remember getting the stand and it was so massive. And that's probably then was the Genesis for I love a big book. And that was probably kind of the Genesis of it because I remember going through that book and being like, This is so incredible. But back to modern day, the other person I've loved all of his books. Is S. A. Cosby. Yeah. I mean. I love

Renee:

Razorblade Tears. That's on my list of favorite, uh, audiobooks. Is Adam Lazare, Adam Lazare White is the narrator. I don't know him. Well, he narrated Razorblade Tears and it, it was fantastic.

Brett Benner:

I, I feel like he's, every book gets better and I feel like he's so in his stride. Again, he's someone I would read whatever he puts out.

Renee:

This year has been tricky for me because they haven't been hitting, like the new releases haven't been hitting as well for me as they have. In years past, but Kill for Me, Kill for You by Steve Kavanaugh was so good. That was great. Wolf at the Table

Brett Benner:

by Adam Rapp. Well, this brings up an interesting thing too, because that title, title in particular, I was looking at that this morning. One of my favorites this year, but it's almost like, again, this subgenre of, you know, literary thriller, literary mystery, the same way The God of the Woods is like that to me and Chris Whitaker is that as well?

Renee:

Yeah, I do like the literary spin on some of these literally well literary mysteries and thrillers where They're bringing in I would say often a slower pace But it's still in the, maybe the thriller category and they're adding in just writing that sometimes is so provoking and the type of writing. This is what I think about. I, I don't know if this is not an actual definition of a literary thriller, but this is what I think about when I'm reading that is. Wow, that, oh my gosh, I love that sentence. I want to highlight it. It's so insightful and, and deep or reflective and that's not what you, you may necessarily think of in a straight up popcorn thriller, right? That's why I call it literary or. Like a literary thriller or a literary mystery.

Brett Benner:

Yeah, no, I think you're right. But, and for our listeners, A Wolf at the Table is such a brilliant book because it really, it's a family story and each chapter kind of focuses on a different sibling. It spans many years. It's, it's kind of a dual thematic thing, which is it really shows or implies. people's relationship or relation to evil and how close we can be to that. But what you start to get as this goes through is, is the youngest, the boy in the family, could he potentially be a serial killer? Um, and it's an interesting book because it's really, there's no real violence that's ever seen, but there is such a tremendous amount of menace that lives under that book at all times. That my gut was clenching where I was like, there were certain scenes in it and I know there's one I don't want to spoil anything when you and I had a discussion about it, with involving a real factual serial killer that I thought was Oh my God, I thought it was so well done. Yes, it is

Renee:

such a, I don't know if masterclass is too strong of a word, but I'm going to say masterclass in creating tension on the page.

Brett Benner:

Yeah, yeah. And the

Renee:

whole, and that's a, that's hard. That has to be hard to do, I don't know, for that length of a book because it wasn't short, but it, I flew through it.

Brett Benner:

I was the same. I couldn't put it down. Um, in fact, I'd had a galley of it and I loved it so much. I went out and bought a copy of the hardback because I was like, I have to, I want to own this. Like, I want this. I think he's immensely talented. And I just thought it was, it was such an incredible character study. I think. Just phenomenal. Yes.

Renee:

Yeah, I have to I have to mention Michael Kareeda because I don't think he gets enough attention I don't know why but he is writing I think at the top of his game He is a fantastic thriller writer Also brings in that literary feel to his work And so I would recommend his newest book is an honest man. Excellent. They're all great on audio His narrator is Robert Petkoff and they're great At least the three that I'm going to recommend, they're all narrated by Robert Petkoff, and I would say you cannot go wrong with any of these. An Honest Man, Those Who Wish Me Dead, and Never Far Away. And he, like I said, he is just so good at writing flawed characters. Who are, who are like really skirting the line between being morally gray. And, but also then he'll put in a really good guy who's, who's still flawed and you can't help but rooting for him or her. Because Never Far Away is, is a big focus there is with a mother. He's just great. Okay, I have to, I have to say this too, because I think that what I also really enjoy is a mystery or thriller that is just not splashy. It's not This one could have been at the time, but I have to, I have to shout out my top book of 2021, which was An Untamed State by Roxane Gay, which I never even knew that Roxane Gay had a thriller.

Brett Benner:

I would never have put those two things together. And

Renee:

it was like, I read a ton that year in 2021. That was my top book of the year. Robin Miles is the narrator. I listened to that one. It is incredible. I mean, I don't know if, if Roxane Gay will ever write another thriller, but I really wish she would. But that was published a long time ago and I don't know if. It might've been super popular when it came out, but I just discovered it in 2021. So that's another thriller that I want to shout out. Also, I don't tend to give trigger warnings because I don't tend to have trigger warnings for myself, but I will for this particular thriller say that like, Sexual assault, it's, you gotta know that going in. It's very graphic. So I will, I will say that. The

Brett Benner:

other person I've kind of had fun with, I've liked the last two books from Ashley Winstead. The Last Housewife, especially, I thought was so much fun. These are like the equivalent to me of like being on a, watching a Netflix movie and just being in on a Friday night. Midnight is the Darkest Hour totally takes a nod to Twilight a little bit. Um, I didn't like that as much, but Last Housewife is really fun. And I've not read. In my dreams, I hold a knife. That's the only one of hers that I've read. And I really liked it. It's funny. I sat down with Ashley last year for the Gays Reading Podcast, and she's so lovely and so sweet, and I said to her, Ashley, it's, I'm having a hard time marrying who I'm seeing with the person who thinks up these just. F'd up plots. I know. just like, you know, horrible things that are going on. So I, you know, which also makes it really, really funny. Okay. So let's talk for a second about tropes. What do you not like?

Renee:

Okay. Well, this is what I alluded to earlier, but I tend to not like locked room mysteries or not that I don't like them. I will avoid them. I will avoid picking up the book if I hear that it's a locked room mystery or lately it seems like. Especially this summer, it was people going to an island and then somebody gets murdered on that, you know, on the island. Right. I'm usually like, no, I'm good. But then I read the Agatha, uh, and then there were none by Agatha Christie. And I love that. Oh, because

Brett Benner:

she showed you how it's done.

Renee:

I guess so. But I don't know why I have no logical reason why I tend to not gravitate towards the locker room mysteries. The other thing I'm not feeling is. It's the true crime podcast narrative of setting up a mystery or thriller with the using a true crime podcast structure. Sure. I don't, I usually avoid that too.

Brett Benner:

As I spent last night watching Only Murders in the Building.

Renee:

What about you? What, What's your tropes you avoid?

Brett Benner:

Yeah, well, I'm really with you on the I'm not a big locked room mystery because they always feel like like you said like They're going to an island or like there's a storm. Oh, no the bridge washed out. We can't get out till morning They're trying to get here, you know, and I'm like really so I don't like that I mean and I also I am a little done with the unreliable narrator because I feel like It, it's a little bit of a convenience. I just feel like sometimes it's a little bit lazy. Like, it's not what you think it is. Like I said before, I don't need there to be a twist on a twist on a twist. I'm like, this is not a pretzel. I am really fine if we have some big reveal and I'm like, wow, that's great. I mean, if you're so amazing that you can do it a few times and I'm still, but more often than not, I'm like, really? Okay. Same. What I don't like is, you know, everyone, I think a lot of people go into something and want to try to figure it out, and there's certain things that there's no way you would have been able to figure out because we're going to throw a ruse, like, I was dead the whole time. It's

Renee:

like, okay, well, how would we even know that? That's one of those stories, those stories where the author does not allow the reader to even play along. And then I get mad about that too. Like, where was the clue even that for in that case, like where was even the clue that the person was still alive? It wasn't even there for us to figure out. And then I get frustrated too.

Brett Benner:

Did you read Westhardt Kill?

Renee:

No.

Brett Benner:

Okay, so Westhardt Kill by Dan McDormand, it came out a year ago, and it had a lot of pre publication buzz, and people either loved it or hated it, but it is the locked room mystery, right? But what he does is bring this family together of strangers, murders start to happen, but he throws the whole Genre on its head and he starts to do this kind of very meta, which I don't want to give anything away But it's not linear at all. Like you're going through it and you're like wait, what is happening? But it's I don't I don't know how successful the book actually was I don't think it was as successful as they anticipated it to be because I think it was too cerebral For what people anticipated or the people who were going to read it, expected it to be, they were going and expecting this locked room mystery. And here's what's going to happen. He doesn't do that. And he takes the, uh, genre and kind of says, I'm going to do this and makes you question everything. And it's like, again, it's very meta. So that I at least thought. I have to give it to him for trying something that was very different and kind of dissects it. But yeah, I, I have a hard time if a book is trying to just be clever, I, I could kind of smell that and I don't like it.

Renee:

I think I would agree with you except there's one, one particular, two books in particular, same author, Gene Hanf Correlates, the plot and the sequel. Is so good. And I mean, I have described it as clever with a capital C. My gosh, I thought the plot was clever. And these are, these are psychological thrillers involving in the plot. You have a creative writing teacher who has a student who has an amazing story that. Even Oprah's gonna want and then years later finds out that that story never got published and Creative writing teacher steals it in the sequel. It's a continuation of what happened in the plot and I Truly think she out did herself. I thought the plot was clever The sequel is even better and I'm not even gonna say I don't even want to give away it It's a very hard synopsis to talk about because I don't want to give anything away about the plot, but just, but I think that in order to fully, fully, fully appreciate the sequel, go ahead and read the plot first. And, um, they're both great on audio too. Julia Whelan narrates the sequel. I don't remember if she did the plot, but. Anyway, that's also such a meta, clever, psychological thriller that just works. I think that Gene Hamph Correlates has decided to like just really turn the publishing industry and writers, like turn the whole concept of, of all of that on its head and just have fun with it. And it's really good. My God, you've got me so excited for it now. I have a question for you. Is there a trope that if you see it in As in the synopsis of a mystery and thriller that you are like, okay, that's it I don't even need to know anything else I will read this book based on like what trope is there any for you?

Brett Benner:

Wow. That's a good question I don't know that there is That I could think of off the top of my head. What is it for you? Missing

Renee:

persons. I know it. Like, I don't even, that's my, that's my, that's my mystery thriller catnip. It doesn't matter who it is. I don't need, all I need to know, somebody's missing. Could be a kid. Could be adult. I don't, that's all I need to know. I am fascinated and I will get pulled in just that. That's just knowing that, that somebody vanished without a trace and I need to know what happened. Wow. I love that trope. And we, there's been tons of books about it. I never get tired of reading about. Give me a missing person. Yes. Anything. Yeah, I, because the, the whole concept of vanishing without a trace is not, it's just what happened. But where do people go? I want to know if you're a fiction writer, obviously you're going to give us the whole story, but this happens, you know, in real life too. And how did, how do people just vanish without a trace?

Brett Benner:

Yeah. Those are taking me back to like thrillers from Mary Higgins Clark. Like where are the

Renee:

children? Yes. Yes. Yes. She was, I, she was an early. Early mystery writer for me. Like

Brett Benner:

80s. Yeah. Yeah. Like she was like 80s. And um, putting out the, the early thrillers, you were like, Oh my God, these were so good. I mean, until V. C. Andrews came along. But yeah, Mary Higgins Clark, big time, big time. God, I wonder if she's still alive. Probably not.

Renee:

I think she is. Yeah. Really? Alifair Burke, who is another great thriller writer, has been, uh, has co authored many recent Mary Higgins Clark's book. Alifair Burke is, is probably the main writer, but. Yeah, right.

Brett Benner:

And she's like, and then the person goes missing and this is who did it. Okay. I'll write that story. Well, that's what happened with VC Andrews is VC Andrews died. And then someone kept writing as VC Andrews, which there has to be a story there somewhere. Not that particular thing, but I'm saying just that kind of inspiration for a story about someone. And maybe that's, you know, maybe that's a lot or the sequel. I'm so excited for that now. I'm so excited for the sequel.

Renee:

It's good. Yeah, it's really, yeah, you'll have to let me know what you think. It's really good. I love it when, when a, an eagerly anticipated sequel ends up being even better than the first one because that, this is like, that's rare.

Brett Benner:

This was amazing. First of all, I think we've given so many options for people as we're now into spooky season. If you're not right into straight horror. Certainly, you can wrap your head around so many of these books that are going to tickle that urge, I think.

Renee:

Oh, for sure. I think, yeah, I think that, uh, your show notes will be filled with reading options. So,

Brett Benner:

so many, but they'll all be up on my bookshop. org page so people can find them. This was so much fun. We have to do this again. I loved having you here. I could literally talk to you all day. This particular episode will be seven hours long.

Renee:

Well, we, we do like to talk. And we have, this is a, we can definitely do a part two because mysteries and thrillers, they can go on and on, they can go on and on

Brett Benner:

and they keep coming. All right. Well, and people can find you. I said, I will put all the information below, but follow Renee on her sub stack and also you can find her on Instagram, um, she is there as well. And again, I will list all that stuff. In the notes. Yes! Thanks! This was fun! This was awesome! Have a great rest of your day, and we will talk soon. Later! And once again, all of the books that we talked. About. Or at least. A lot of them. We'll be up on my bookshop.org page that you could check out of. There's. Any of these, that sound interesting to you. And there are a lot, so, alright. Everybody have a great week. And if you like what you're hearing, please like, and. Subscribe. Wherever you're listening. I really appreciate it. And.