The Booker Episode, with Bernie Lombardi & Christopher Metts

Today I'm joined by bookstagram power couple Bernie Lombardi & Christopher Metts to ‌discuss our thoughts on the thirteen books on the Booker long list, what we think could end up making the short list cut, and some of our personal favorites.
As always, all the books talked about today are avail on my bookshop.org page.

https://thebookerprizes.com

Bernie Lombardi: https://www.instagram.com/bernie.lombardi

Christopher Metts: https://www.instagram.com/chrsitophermetts

Watch Behind the Stack on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@brettsbookstack

Bookshop.org page:
https://www.bookshop.org/shop/brettsbookstack

Brett's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/bretts.book.stack

Behind the Stack email:
brettsbookstack@gmail.com

Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:03

Hey everybody. Okay. So I'm really, really happy today to have two really wonderful guests on the podcast, Bernie Lombardi and Christopher Metz, who I met like so many people have over on Instagram, and I will link below their handles on Instagram so you can follow them as well. But they are really fun and really smart. And by the way, you need to follow them strictly to watch their food photos because they're big foodies. So you will see them eating all over the New York area. And if they go anywhere else, they're always posting these beautiful pictures, which make me incredibly jealous. So, um, you guys welcome. Thank you. I'm so glad you're here to talk about the Booker today.

Bernie: 0:44

Thanks for having us so much.

Brett Benner: 0:46

I, I kind of view you two as the literary power couple of Instagram because there's not a lot of you there, there, there, there really isn't. Who's I don't know that on any book platform that I've seen, frankly, so I love that. The other thing I appreciate about you both so much is you have very, uh, interesting and very varied tastes. It's very eclectic. I, I think you're, you're, you're book reading. Is there a lot you guys differ on in terms of your tastes or do you align on more?

Chris: 1:19

There's some authors that I stick to.

Bernie: 1:22

I'd say it's like 50 50. Yeah. Chris, I think reads more broadly maybe in genre genre wise.

Chris: 1:29

Yeah. I explore more genre. Um, But that's probably because when I started getting into reading. Um, you know, in high school and, and grad school and college, I was kind of more into like YA fantasy. So I've always had like a spot for that, whereas Bernie never really explored that genre. So he's less familiar or, um, less inclined to go that route, but I still venture towards that sometimes.

Brett Benner: 1:55

Do you still read it?

Chris: 1:57

Sometimes, yeah, but not, not very often.

Brett Benner: 1:59

Okay, so I also know that you guys are big Book Award fans and you follow them very closely. Is, is, is the Booker favorite?

Bernie: 2:08

Definitely. I would say yes, yes. Booker, but the National Book Award, like, we've gotten more into the National Book Award in the past, like, two, three years, but I would say, like, I started Bookstagram because I wanted to, I was getting into the Booker and liked how everybody was talking about it. And so. Yeah. That's how long ago was that like 2018? Like I had always like knew of the Booker and like, kind of like followed who won, but in 2008 was like, I want to read all these books and then saw people talking about it on YouTube.

Chris: 2:36

I, I remember I was at a Starbucks actually. On a break from work and Bernie had texted me, Oh, look at this prize list for books. We should try to explore it this year. And he was like, pick your favorite, like two or three and we'll order them. And I picked milkman. And I think everything, everything, everything under from that year's list and milkman actually ended up winning. And that was my first read of that year. And now it's like one of my favorite books of all time.

Brett Benner: 3:09

Wait, where did you guys meet?

Bernie: 3:12

Um, on Bumble, which is like Tinder. And it was, I was in, I was living in Jersey city and he was living in Manhattan.

Chris: 3:19

Yeah. And actually kind of I didn't know he was in Jersey. It just popped up on my like location that he was in the city So I was like, oh i'll meet this guy and then once he once we got on our first date He was like, oh, I actually live in jersey

Brett Benner: 3:37

And did it go down for you at that point?

Chris: 3:39

No, it's fine. I was already enraptured. So

Brett Benner: 3:43

And I so was book something you immediately started talking about was that like a first

Chris: 3:49

Yeah, kind of you were, Bernie was doing his, um, his was, were you working on your PhD at that time? Yeah, he was working on his PhD. So we wasn't reading as much for pleasure. So he was reading a lot for work. And whereas I was on the opposite. So I was just reading for pleasure all the time. And I think Bernie got a little jealous because I would be like, Oh, I just finished this book. And I finished this book. And he was like, I want, I need to get back to that because he always had read for pleasure prior to starting a PhD. And then, so that's how it kind of went.

Brett Benner: 4:18

Do you guys think that I, cause I've noticed this and I'm, I'm just curious with the, with, especially on the bookstagram world, that there has been an increase in the enthusiasm for these awards, it seems to grow over a year.

Bernie: 4:32

Absolutely. I think like, it's like slowly trickled. Um, when I came on bookstagram, I actually was, you know, I was So when I decided I wanted to be a bookstagrammer, it was because I was really into booktube because all the booktubers were talking about the book prizes, but I didn't really want to commit to that cause that was a lot of work. So I like started doing bookstagram and I feel like that's like right around when it started to become a big thing on bookstagram. So slowly, but In recent years, it's like kind of like blown up. Yeah. And you can kind of tell just based on the awards marketing budgets, like they, they each year they do something bigger and bigger and bigger. And you can tell that there's momentum each year that more so than they had the previous years.

Brett Benner: 5:17

Yeah. It literally just used to be like, here's a stack of books. Yeah. Now it's become, I love when they have The actors that read passages and interpret it. And that's, it's so brilliant. So yeah, it's really become a thing and it's fun to watch. It's also just fun. And again, it's why I wanted you guys on here today. Just so we could talk about these because there's so much passion about not only what makes the, the, the long list, but then of course, you know, on the 16th, when the shortlist comes out, there'll be people screaming about what did and didn't make it. And I love that people are so, it feels like even more than like, um, you know, the Academy awards or something. They're much more invested in this. It's a much different thing. Were there any books that you guys? Thought we're going to be on the list that didn't make it.

Bernie: 6:05

I mean, the big, the big one for me is probably intermezzo, the new Sally Rooney, cause I love that book, but I also heard that like, maybe, I don't know, she didn't want to be on the list or, or also like, she's so handle. I kind of told you, well, she's so, she's so big that like, you know, maybe the, her publisher wanted to try to highlight other books cause they only have a certain amount of missions. So, you know, and intermezzo is going to do good. You know, do well no matter what.

Brett Benner: 6:33

So yeah, no, it absolutely will. Especially when I was reading the other day, the FSG was like, you know, these events are happening all over. You know, it was like, it was like, it felt like the days of Harry Potter, which was like, you know, is the store staying open till midnight for the new Sally Rooney? It's like even my daughter, who is not much of a reader, it's, which is, kills my soul. Last year at camp, she came home and she was like, Oh my God, Papa, I read this book and it was so amazing. And I was like, all right, what is it? And she was like, it's called normal people. Wait, what? If this is the baseline, if we're starting with this, there are so many places we could go. I can give you so many lists. So it was very exciting for me. I thought praiseworthy could really end up on there, despite the fact that I hadn't, I hadn't read it yet, but I did buy it under the assumption that I'm like, Oh, this is going to get on. And everybody was talking about it as like one of them. And then the other thing that I thought could get on was, um, Caledonian road, which, which I've been reading for like the past, you know, two months. And it's interesting. Cause now that I'm almost through it, I was like, I don't, I now don't think it would have been a part of that. It doesn't feel like it would have been a part of that list. It's a great book, but I don't know the necessary part of it. And, and the last one I thought, and I don't know if you guys read glorious exploits. Mm.

Bernie: 7:58

Chris wants to read that, right?

Chris: 7:59

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was super high on tbr. That's the other one that I thought would get there.

Bernie: 8:04

I was, I was also hoping for Blackouts by Justin Dorre. I didn't make it, but that's okay. He already won the National Book Award, so Good. He's, he's doing well. He, okay.

Brett Benner: 8:13

So what I would love to do is I just wanna go through the books. We don't have to even spend so long on them. Um, but just to say what you thought. I'd also love to know if you think that particular book is gonna make the shortlist or not. Mm-Hmm, Okay. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, and we have them right in front of us.

Bernie: 8:28

So we're ready just to like say before we even started that I mean, in my opinion, this is a very strong list. So it's like really hard to decide what is actually going to be on the shortlist. So just like, you know, if I end up saying like, Oh, that could be on the shortlist to 10 out of 13,

Brett Benner: 8:45

I think, no, it's completely speculative. And I, and I was, cause I was going through them last night and I was, and there's a difference a little bit between what I'd love to see on the list necessarily. And what could be on the list are two different things for me. So, yes, this is all just kind of shits and giggles, having fun and, uh, and, and, you know, and we'll see what happens.

Chris: 9:08

And I also will say we collectively, we've read the whole list, but we haven't individually read the whole list just yet. Okay.

Brett Benner: 9:15

And so this is good because I have not either, cause the only one I have, I was trying like mad last night to get through the Claire Massoud and I have 80 pages left. So I have a creation lake. That's a whole other conversation I'll have with you, which I've gotten halfway through and then I've not started the Richard Powers. That's the only one that I have not touched yet.

Bernie: 9:34

So I've, I've read. I finished 10. I'm halfway through, um, held and enlightenment and I haven't touched headshot yet.

Brett Benner: 9:44

Okay. Okay. So we have everything covered between the three of us, right? Yes. Yes. We're good. All right, here we go. Have your coffees ready. Okay. So first my friends, thanks John Mader. What do we think?

Bernie: 10:00

So going into it, that's like, was already one of my favorite books of the year. Um, I absolutely loved it. I was obsessed with it. I had an inkling that it would be on the list. I have an inkling that it'll be on the shortlist. Um, I just really, really love it. It made me feel a lot. Um, I loved how it looked at like relationships between, you know, the protagonist and his father and, you know, the different people, his friends and the different relationships he had. And I just, I love that one.

Chris: 10:28

I also really liked that one too. And I would put that on the shortlist. I think we both put it on our individual shortlists. Um, Bernie did like love it a little more than I did, but I, I, I felt like the, the melancholy and the like sadness, like deeply throughout it. So, um, I think that's what resonated most with me.

Brett Benner: 10:48

Well, it's interesting. Cause it, it was the. It was the very first book I read this year back in January, and I loved it at the time, but it's interesting now as I've gotten through like this weekend, I, I read Stoneyard devotional and then almost through the Masood. And again, it's fascinating having read that so long ago. The kind of way that these books are having conversations with each other and there's so much about reflection And there's so much about families and this is one of those books that feels very in that world to me I I agree I I feel like it's probably gonna be on the shortlist and and I'd be thrilled with it because I really thought it was It was so solid. I Really thought it was great Okay. Um, number two, the safe keep by Yale Vanderwood.

Chris: 11:38

So I haven't read that one. Bernie has.

Bernie: 11:40

Do you want me to go first? Do you want to go first? I can go first.

Brett Benner: 11:43

Sure. I loved this. Um, my thing was, I said, I, I read this on a plane, like flying across the country and I started, I had no idea what I was getting into and I was completely focused, completely, you know, I was in a capsule 30, 000 feet in the air. And like, I. I don't know. I really, uh, the kind of the, the trajectory of the book, where it went, I had no idea where it was headed and not to give anything away, but I just, I found it a really interesting narrative. I don't know that this will make the short list. I would personally be thrilled if it made the short list because I love her and I think she's a really interesting writer. Um, I was also, I was really surprised how. Um, kind of turned on I was this lesbian sex, like, I really was like, what is happening right now? Cause it's so sexy. Like I, I, and, and I, you know, I said, I, cause we did an interview, like Jason Lipman, I interviewed her for gay reading and I said, you have done to, to pairs what Andrea Asman did to Peaches. Yeah. And, and really the both of you can make the most amazing queer fruit salad But yeah, I was so like, okay, this is weird, but I'm really turned on right now. So that was my thoughts.

Bernie: 13:05

I, I literally had. Probably the same exact experiences and and the same the same exact opinions. I loved it It's one that like a lot of people don't love It's very I would say split down the middle on who loves it and who doesn't love it I know that I know that a lot of people who are familiar more familiar with the The history and you know, again, not to give anything away. Yeah. Kind of called what was gonna happen early on.'cause they picked up on the little pieces. Oh, interesting. But I wasn't familiar with, with this, um, nothing That's smart. And so I had no idea until part three started what, what it was about. Um, and, and I thought it was amazing. I thought it was so good. And I, I thought it was well written. A lot of people thought that it was like tidy at the end, but I didn't, I thought that, like, I didn't, it left things open for your interpretation.

Brett Benner: 13:52

Yeah, I completely agree with you. I don't know. I. It was, in fact, to be honest, it could be end up being one of my favorite books of the year. I just loved it that much. I just was like, wow, this is what a debut. Um, all right. Wandering stars by Tommy orange.

Chris: 14:08

Yeah, sure. I enjoyed it. I found myself just comparing it a lot to they're there, um, which I loved and I didn't love it as much as they're there. So I think that that hindered my reading of it. I was really into the beginning and part one. So like the prehistory of there, there, and then I kind of got a little sidetracked in part two. I still liked it. I thought it was pretty. Um, the writing was beautiful, but, but yeah, it wasn't necessarily my favorite. And probably not a shortlister for you. Yeah, no.

Bernie: 14:42

Okay, so I have an interesting relationship with They're There. I read it when it first came out, but I was Super sick and because of that like just like didn't get on with it But always knew it was like a me thing and not not the book So I reread there there before reading this and ended up like really really liking it and thinking it was really really good And then I immediately went into wandering stars, and I do I agree with those who say that it's It's not, in my opinion, not as good as There There, but I still liked it a lot. And I wasn't bothered by the two parts being, you know, from kind of like feeling like two separate books. Um, I thought it worked. I thought like, I liked a lot of the underlying themes. I probably wouldn't put it on my shortlist. But I could see it being shortlisted. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 15:28

I, I liked it a lot. I actually, I read there there when it first came out and I liked there there. I wasn't crazy about it. Like some people were. And so I was almost like going into this, uh, I was almost hesitant and I was surprised how much I actually liked it. And kind of the historical, like going back really worked for me and I ended up liking it more. And I don't know if I would have gone back and read there there now, if I would have had a different experience with that. So. I did really like it. I, I wouldn't, for me, I wouldn't, it wouldn't be on my short list, but I think it's a totally solid novel. And, uh, it's one of those things I would totally recommend to people, but yeah, not, not like that. Mr. Percival Ebert and James.

Bernie: 16:13

James. I mean, James, James is just, It's just so good. Um, it's, it's, it's a really special book. It was one, I was actually not sure if it was going to be on the Booker just because it's like so American. And I mean, that doesn't really mean anything because there are very American novels on the Booker long list. It's not about whether it's American or not. But when I think about it, I think about it as like next year's Pulitzer winner. Um, that's how I have it in my head. Um, so I wasn't necessarily associating it with the Booker, but I mean, it makes perfect sense and I would include it on my short list.

Chris: 16:48

Yeah, same. I would definitely include it. I loved it. I love Perle Everett, so anything he reads, it's an auto. Anything he writes, it's an auto, auto buy for us um, and an auto for sure.

Brett Benner: 16:58

Yeah. I will be this. That'll be the shock if this doesn't get on the short list. Yeah, that'll be, that'll be the scream. You hear collection across books to Grant. Um, yeah. I, I absolutely loved it. In fact, tonight I have my in real life book club and that was the book. That was chosen this month. So my husband read it yesterday. Like he just literally sat down the library and then he, like, I heard the snap close last night and he was like, well, that was really good. and I was like, it is, it's so, Oh God, it's great. Okay. Enlightenment by Sarah Paley. This is different, I think, than the cover you guys have. You have British, right?

Chris: 17:32

Yeah, yeah. We have the UK cover. Do you want us to show it? Yeah. Yeah. Show it. So Sarah Perry is, I love Sarah Perry. Um, red Melmoth and, um, the Essex Sert by her. Um, and I also loved enlightenment. It was so beautiful. I was obsessed with the characters. I loved their relationship. Although it was, um, fraught at some times. I was so into just the whole vibes of the book, and I know people have said that it's. Um, they, that they don't get along as well with it because it's not as heavy on plot, but I kind of knew that going in, um, and so I was prepared for it and I was just there for it. And you're reading it now.

Bernie: 18:07

Yeah. I'm reading it now. I'm like page 220 out of 375 or something, so a little over 50%. This is the one that like. If I had to choose one when the long list was originally revealed, that I was like, I don't really want to read that. It was probably this one just because like, I don't know, I just like associated it with I just associated it as something that I wouldn't like maybe because of the cover. I don't astronomy. Yeah. astronomy. I'm not a big science person. And there's a lot of science on this list. Um, but And, you know, a lot of people don't like it, or a lot of people find it boring and dense, and so I was kind of worried. But I told you you would like it. Yeah, you told me I would like it. But, I actually really like it. Um, I, I like the themes that are being explored around, like, queerness and religion, and the body, and I like the weird You know, old, you know, 18 or 1800s kind of like voice to the narrative. I think it works, but, and yeah, yeah. So I like it. And it's one of the ones that I'm like considering putting on my short list, but I'm not sure I have to finish the finish it.

Brett Benner: 19:13

Chris, I'm with you. I loved it. I loved it. I was there for all the vibes. Like you said, like I loved these characters. It is a weird thing. And even people who are, when you're talking about the book, because you get into astronomy and you're kind of talking about it and you're like, Yeah. It's, it's sound. And to me, it sounds much more heady than it actually is when you get into it, because I think it, you know, at its center, it's, it really is like these two characters, these two people they're in love with. There's, so there's so much character stuff that I just found fascinating. But again, the whole idea of, you know, religion versus spirituality versus science and, um, what she's playing with, I thought was so fascinating. Yeah. I didn't know if ultimately like, It's stuck the landing for me in a way, which I was expecting something different by the end, but I can't necessarily fault the book for that. It was just something I was aware of by the end of the book. But I, I, for me, I would put this on my short list and I hope it makes the short list. I just think it's a really interesting, interesting, interesting book. And, and, um,

Bernie: 20:14

I also really liked the inclusion of the ghost. I was just, I think it works.

Chris: 20:17

I was about to say, I forgot about the ghost and I feel like anytime there's like a ghost. In a book, for some reason, I'm like, Oh, I love that ghost.

Brett Benner: 20:24

Yeah. Well, and it isn't just the 18th century thing. And that was the one thing that threw me for a moment because it did feel like even the sensibilities of, you know, it's kind of people's viewpoints on homosexuality. And it felt like, uh, almost something, uh, a drawing room kind of, you know, I, when I said like in one moment, she's describing the crinoline of a dress. And then in the next moment, someone's pulling out a cell phone. And I was like, wait, it's, it would throw me sometimes. And I have to keep reminding myself, you know, she's from the past, but there are these elements and just her writing is so rich and beautiful that it does feel like, you know, you're, you're waiting to enter Downton Abbey, but it again. It all worked for me. And I, I, I was completely smitten with it. Orbital by Samantha Harvey. I love this cover, by the way. I just think it's beautiful. It is.

Chris: 21:13

Why don't you go first on this one? Okay. This, we talked about vibes with Perry and this was a vibe book for me too. And it worked for me., I know some people were like, there was no real plot. And none of that mattered to me. It was less about. You know, I just felt like it was this incredible meditation on the earth and life and the universe and our place in it. And it, it was so beautiful to me. Again, I read this one day we were driving out to the desert. So I read it in one field clip and the thing I, I don't usually do this and I feel like I should do it more. Because this is a thing that I heard that works for some people with ADHD. I'm not admitting that I have ADHD, but I think I probably do have ADHD, but they said, if you listen to music, when you read, sometimes it helps immerse and focus. And I did that. I put on this kind of, um, Space type just and it took me to places like I was so in it. I was so moved by it I don't know. I loved it. I don't know that it would make this short list It's a it's a it's one that i'm not sure about but it might make mine. I thought it was I was completely with it. It's funny. You said, um meditative because Bernie who's gonna speak to this next I haven't read this one yet But yesterday he read it and he was he looked at me. He was like, you know, it's it's just like a meditation

Bernie: 22:30

Yeah, no, I okay so yeah, I read it yesterday this was another one with enlightenment that at face value was about science, about space. And I was like, not my thing. so I saved it to towards the end, but I picked it up and read 90 percent of it yesterday and I loved it. It might, it honestly might be my favorite. for, for a lot of the reasons that you said for how it looks at, you know, humanity, politics. the earth, uh, borders. I just, I just thought it was, I thought it was really, really well done. I'm definitely including it on my short list and I'm going to predict it as well.

Chris: 23:04

And both Orbital and Enlightenment actually, when we went to London, for the International Booker Ceremony, I picked up at, Shops, and I was like, Oh, Bernie, I want these enlightenment and orbital. And he was like, and enlightenment just became one that I didn't end up purchasing. And orbital became one. I didn't end up purchasing. Cause he was like, that's an American author. Like we can wait.

Bernie: 23:25

No, those are both English authors. No, I just said that they sounded boring.

Brett Benner: 23:32

We don't want those. We'll just take up space.

Chris: 23:34

He was like, it's just too much. It's a big book. And that's a small book. Like, come on. Yeah. So it ended up, he ended up negotiating me out of those two purchases. So it's just funny.

Brett Benner: 23:44

And now we have that record that like, he did that. That is so funny. Oh, Chris, then I'm interested to see what you think of it when you read it.

Chris: 23:50

Yeah, I'm excited. And it's interesting. You said the thing about, um, music. I did something similar when I read Pod by, um, I don't remember the author's name. Elaine Paul? Yeah. Um, I listened to like whale sounds. that book and it definitely enhanced the experience.

Brett Benner: 24:07

So I'm with you on that. I, and I don't know that I'd ever go into the next book and be like, okay, what am I going to match this with? For some reason I was just like, I wanted to, I don't know. It just, and it, it really was like, I came out of it and I, I, it's like, I felt like I was having this, you know, epiphany moment as I was reading that book. It was so. Strange. And it's one of those things that because of that experience and like driving to the desert and seeing like the, the windmills just turning, it's all kind of seared into your head, you know, when you read certain things and you remember exactly where you were when you did that. Yes. Um, all right. And Michael's held.

Bernie: 24:44

I'm on page 80. So I don't know, I don't know much about it. Um, or I don't know enough to say, but I'll just say that the first like 10 pages hurt my brain. and it took me a second to get used to the language, but once I got used to the language, I started to appreciate him.

Brett Benner: 25:00

Chris, wait, you haven't read it yet? Oh, you did.

Chris: 25:01

I have, I read, I did read Held. I read it. I read 90 percent on Sunday, last Sunday. And then Um, didn't pick it up again until like Friday of this week, this past week. And I, I think that hindered my reading of it because I was almost done. And just because we were so busy, I picked it up so late. And then I was confused when I picked it back up because I was like, Oh, I don't remember these characters. But then once I realized that they were actually new characters, it, it kind of, um, I figured it all out. I did really enjoy the writing. It was very pretty. She's clearly a poet. Um, that's, that's very clear in all the writing, but I don't remember much about it. I think just because I put it down for so long.

Brett Benner: 25:48

No, it's not because you just put it down. I had the same thing. No, I literally read this, like, again, I was on a plane. I feel like I'm always on a plane, read it. And like, I got through the whole first part of it. And I remember thinking at the time, wow, this is beautiful writing and I can't tell you anything that it was about. Like I had to go back and look at the beginning again to kind of remember what it was. I didn't even write a review of it because I was like, I, I really have to dig to remember what it is. I just read. Um, so that wasn't the best time. Um, so I'm glad you had that experience too. Cause I really was like, is it me? Okay, Blair Massoud, The Strange Eventful History.

Chris: 26:25

So yeah, you've just been reading it, so you go first.

Brett Benner: 26:28

Yeah, I really, it's funny because this is another one where I'd heard a lot of people either not liking it or finding it boring or not connecting with it. Now, I've been doing it on audio as well, and I've really been taken with it. I mean, I, I'm someone who, I enjoy a multi generational story. I enjoy an epic. I enjoy something historical. So all of that. has really been working for me. Kind of, it's, it's surprised me how much this family has kind of snuck up on me and kind of captured me. And I'm really kind of invested in all of them to see where they're all going to go and where they're ultimately all going to end up. Um, and I think the writing is beautiful. Sometimes I find it, I don't know if overwritten is the right word, where she gets into a lot of details and she's spitting a lot of names about this ant and this, which I'm like, I don't, I don't, that almost distracts me sometimes, but, but generally, yeah. Uh, I don't know. I'm enjoying it.

Chris: 27:22

Yeah, we actually both listened to this one as well. And I think that definitely enhanced our reading of it because, um, I, I was, I'm also, I'm like you, Brett. I love a family saga. So I love when, um, these deep dives and what really stuck out to me about this novel in particular is that I haven't read something like a family saga that carries you through, um, The different characters continuously throughout. So a lot of times, the sagas that I've read, you read a portion from one perspective, then the next and the next and the next and generation over time. Yeah. This one, you get like early on, but then we also get, so we watch their whole marriage unfold while their kids are growing up. Growing up and then it kind of all just keeps going and going. So I, I felt like it was more immersive.

Bernie: 28:09

Like you get all the characters throughout, like, it's not like, you know, the grandparents die and then the next generation.

Brett Benner: 28:14

Yeah. And that's probably what aids to that kind of investment in them because you see not only the impact of these relationships that started in the beginning and long term, but also the effect that that has on the kids and their longterm. And so it's, it's a really kind of, thorough and a complete way to kind of stick with these characters. And I think you probably just nailed it as to why people feel very invested by the end, you know, and it's one of those things where I would say to people push through in the beginning, because I do think it's worth it. And I, and I think this could get on the short list. Um, I, I would be, this would be another one. I'd be a little surprised if it wasn't on the short list, but we'll see.

Chris: 28:52

Yeah. I think, I feel like usually the book are short. List has one of these type of novels he's been heavily like researched or saga type books So I feel like this is definitely their pick

Brett Benner: 29:03

right and then I I also saw that you know The blurb inside the dusk jacket was from egan lee.

Bernie: 29:09

Yeah Can't miss that

Brett Benner: 29:11

So i'm like, well, um, we'll see she's like I have my first. all right Stoneyard devotional by charlotte wood

Bernie: 29:19

chris hasn't read that yet. Um, i've read it. I really really really liked it. You I hate mice. I absolutely hate mice. Um, so a lot of moments, there were a lot of moments throughout the book where I wanted to vomit literally because the writing about mice is so descriptive that it like just like gave me chills.

Brett Benner: 29:41

It was the plague of your nightmares.

Bernie: 29:42

Yeah, it's the like the worst chills possible.

Chris: 29:45

I can confirm he, I was sitting next to him and he Put his hand to his mouth while he was reading it and I was like, is it really that bad? He was like physically like reacting to it.

Bernie: 29:57

That being said I love a book about nuns Um, I, I love, I love a book about nuns. I mean, I went to Catholic school my entire life. So like anytime nuns come into,

Brett Benner: 30:07

was that a good experience?

Bernie: 30:08

Yeah. So I didn't have like a, yeah. It wasn't traumatic. No, I didn't have a traumatic Catholic school experience. Okay. Okay. Um, but I really liked it. It's one of the ones that's like on the cusp for me, like maybe shortlist, maybe not. Like it's like right around like six, five, six, seven, eight, kind of, I would say.

Brett Benner: 30:26

This again was another one that completely surprised me. I had no idea. And even when I started it, I'm like, am I going to like this? Because again, which was like many of these books, it's, it's very interior. That's, that's the crux of this book. But I ended up really loving it. And I found myself, That last like 90 pages, I was so moved and repeatedly moved. Like I found myself, I kept choking up and I loved what she was saying. I loved the ideas that she was putting forth. Would love to see this on the short list. Uh, it, it was one of my favorites of the group so far.

Bernie: 31:02

I think that like, although like they're very different. So based on what I know so far in the writing is very, very different. I would maybe like held and be like one or the other will make the short list.

Brett Benner: 31:12

I think you're right. I get that. I get that totally. I get that.

Chris: 31:16

I've predicted my shortlist, but I haven't read it. From what I've heard.

Brett Benner: 31:20

All right. Creation Lake by Rachel Kushner. I'll start on this one. And here's my thing. I was watching everybody go crazy for this book. And so I was really excited to start. And I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's the time that I read it. And I'm absolutely going to go back and finish it. I got like 46 percent in, and I just was like, good God, the Neanderthals. Like, this is what I felt. I kept thinking, I feel really dumb. That's what I kept thinking. I feel really dumb. I haven't made the connection yet. I haven't correlated at all. I haven't brought it all together. And I kept thinking, this is going to come. If you keep going, it's all going to make sense. And I have determined, and I decided that if this makes the short list, And I think it will personally make the shortlist, then I'm going to go back to them.

Bernie: 32:04

I think it'll make the shortlist too. I feel like I, I hear, I hear what you're saying, and I'm not sure that like, you will be satisfied in the end. Like if you're looking for, if you're looking for those things to come together, um, I, I,

Brett Benner: 32:19

I, Closure and everyone to be happy.

Bernie: 32:21

Yeah, I don't, I don't know if that'll happen. I, while I was reading it, I really, really liked it, even though there were parts that were a little boring. Um, like, sometimes the emails, I was like, oh, not another email. But I really, really liked it, but since time has passed since I finished it, I actually find that I like it less. I don't, I don't, I don't not like it. I don't not like, I still like it a lot, but I like, I thought I loved it, but I don't think I do.

Chris: 32:52

Yeah, I, I enjoyed it as well. And I, I really liked Sadie, the main character, her, her humor. I thought she was, she was witty and, and funny, however, also clumsy and thought she was this great spy, but in reality, she was kind of not, which you find as you progress through the novel. Um, I also think it was fun how Kushner kind of made her her also objectify women in times like, you know, like classic spy novels are all about like from the male perspective, the male gaze on the woman. And it took her, her own gaze on other women and herself, which Which was a fun twist. I actually loved the Neanderthals part. However, the other emails I'm not dedicated to the Neanderthals. I would be like, oh I skipped through these. I want to know more about Neanderthals, but but yeah, I don't know if it connects in the end if it does if you're if you're dumb we"re idiots So

Brett Benner: 33:48

no, I, I'm, I'm glad to hear that. Cause I literally was sitting there and thinking, what is wrong with me? Cause everyone was like, Oh my God, it's amazing. And this is the one. And I was like, the one of what I don't know.

Bernie: 34:00

It might be one that put on a reread, which is what the Booker's all about. Is a book stand a reread.

Brett Benner: 34:06

Sure. And I think they read them. What did he say? Like four, three or four times before they're done. So yeah. So for them, certainly headshot, let's headshot.

Bernie: 34:15

I haven't read. That's the one I haven't read a bowling. Okay.

Chris: 34:18

Yeah, I love this one. This might be my favorite so far. Um, I was so obsessed with it. So the structure is these, eight young women, going into this, tournament, the American Young Women's Boxing League. I, I don't remember the exact title. And each section is broken down into like a fight between two women. And then whoever wins progresses and, you know, you go through them. The semifinals and final match. And I was obsessed with it. I, I read it in like two days. It's kind of stream of conscious and each fight goes in and out of the women, two women fighting. It just like blurs the line and it gives you their past and it also gives you their future. And it also gives you what they're feeling in the moment. But yeah, I loved it. It was all about like the woman's body. And I think I've seen people say it's a little repetitive. However, I would argue that that was her goal because, you know, it's reflecting like boxing, you know, boxing's repetitive. And also these are young women trying to figure themselves out. So maybe, They have like this, they don't really know who they are just yet. So that vibe a lot, but I loved it.

Brett Benner: 35:29

Yeah. I, I liked it. Okay. And I, I'm one of those people who said the repetitive thing. I thought, like, I marveled at the structure of it as I was going through it. I kept thinking, this is so smart and it is so clever. Even everything you described about the book, I thought was, Like was spot on. What was interesting for me and what I started to feel a little bit was part of it was the repetitives. I begin to get the girls mixed up a little bit. And I think at one point they have very similar names. I think they're sisters and it's like literally like, you know, Liesel and Lisa or, you know, something to that effect. And I was like, wait, which is which? I think the other thing, cause as you, as you know, for people who have not read it with each girl that wins, she goes on to the next round, the next round until you have the final two. And. Every, every person, every girl that I picked to win lost. I mean, literally I'd be like, Oh, I like her lost. Then I started to try to figure her out and think like, you know, you know, I was like watching a television show, like when you're watching a reality show and thinking, who are they going to pick? You know, they're just playing with it. So I started to try to second guess. The author to think like, well, which one is she going to give it to? And, uh, so I don't know if that colored my experience cause I got through and I was like, Oh man, I really just, I mean, yes, I lost a lot of money just now. But I did appreciate it in terms of structure a lot. I just, and I have thought about it in hindsight a lot too. I just didn't know if it resonated enough with me when I read it. Okay. Wild houses. By Colin Barrett. Wild House. I haven't read this one.

Bernie: 37:05

This was the first one I read after finding out about the long list. And as, it's a debut, he's written two short story collections before, but this is his debut novel. The guy can write, his, his sentences are phenomenal. His writing is phenomenal. is really, really great. It's a novel that like, doesn't really have a main character. It has a set of characters that are all significant to, to what's happening. And I thought it did a really, really great job at giving us so many well developed three dimensional characters. I thought that was really strong. I think the only thing that like, took away from its wow factor is that the story was like, okay. Like, you know, like it was a nice story, like, or nice. I don't know. Nice is the right word, but like, it was, it was, it was a good story. but not a story that like, I'm going to remember for the

Brett Benner: 37:51

I agree 100%. To be honest with you, it felt like not that different from parts of the first season of Slow Horses, the Apple TV series,, which are also, you know, based on books. The one thing I did expect for this list because we've always had it in the past is more Irish writers and, and Irish writers to me. I know you guys were, were just in Ireland and the Irish are just like, I don't know what they put in the water or just years of inherited trauma, but they're my favorite. So many of my favorite authors. So I was almost expecting A different book than this one. And I liked it a lot. And this was, he was part of, I don't know if you guys ever look at that. Granta puts out a list every year of 10 new authors to watch. And I've read almost all of that list and they're all such good books, but this surprised me a little bit. And again, thought it was interesting, thought it was a different, interesting character study, but not, not the best for me. But still a totally solid book. Okay. I think we're onto the last, which is Playground by Richard Powers. And I will say this is the one I have not read. And part of my reticence to reading it is because this is the one I've heard the most negative about. And I think some of it's not even necessarily substance. I think a lot of it is kind of the BIPOC representation or the writing again, and I haven't read any of it, so I can't speak to it.

Bernie: 39:17

Yeah. Chris. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chris is reading it now.

Chris: 39:18

Yeah, I'm halfway through. Yes, I'm enjoying it. And I get what people are saying about that representation. I don't know exactly what it's doing just yet. So I'm only halfway through. I'm still trying to figure it out. But But I'm wondering if there's a point. Yeah.

Bernie: 39:33

So it's one of my favorites. Absolutely hearing this. I absolutely loved it. There are certain elements of the criticism that I understand. And there are certain elements of the criticism that I believe come from not understanding what the book is doing. So, it's a book that you don't understand what's going on until you get to, like, the last chapter. However many pages you're like, oh shit like that like that was that was that's what it's doing or like is that what it's doing? And then I was fortunate enough to have a bunch of people to talk to about it because I buddy read it with a couple People and that really helped. Here's the thing. It's Interrogating whiteness, in order to do that, it shows a certain white, very privileged character's perspective, and that's uncomfortable to read. Um, and so I understand why somebody wouldn't want to, to read that. But for me, I think that white authors need to interrogate whiteness, and so I'm not, like, against it And I think it's done in the right way. And so, yeah, that's what I think. And I think it's really good.

Brett Benner: 40:37

Yeah. I know. I love all that. And, and actually hearing you talk about it has made me now excited to read it because again, had not really heard anything, you know, I years ago started the overstory and heard so many things about that and I could not get into it. And it felt like a book that I would have loved, but I, you know, I just, I couldn't, I Say it's so dense about being, you know, so obvious

Bernie: 41:03

this has dense moments. It does have dense moments,

Brett Benner: 41:07

but there's something about the ocean and that world that is more appealing to me because I'm, I love that whole thing and I'm obsessed with octopus and somehow I feel like that's going to be more The thing, but hearing you just explain all that and talk about it already feels like it's more of a, an entry point. It's a little more palatable than before, which, you know, now I'm kind of like, and, and again, I'll just say, this feels like something that's going to be on the short list. So. I don't know that we've collectively put a shortlist together. I think we've just said what we think. I just am so curious. This is just without even thinking. Let's just take just a crazy stab. What do you think will take home the prize? I'll go first and I'll just say, James.

Bernie: 41:50

I say My Friends or Orbital.

Chris: 41:51

I think it will The Enlightenment.

Brett Benner: 41:57

I love this. By the way, I would say I would be happy with any of those. And if all four of those are on the shortlist and I'm, I'm thrilled, like, I don't care. This is the first time where I have enough of these books where I've been like, yeah, I'd be happy with a lot of this. The year the colony did not make the shortlist, I wanted to kill myself, but there's a lot of this list. I feel like this is a very accessible list for people who normally wouldn't read the booker. I don't think it's an intimidating list. I don't think it's overly heady. I feel like all the narratives are kind of engaging and bring you in and, and they're very varied in their individuality, if that makes sense. Yeah, totally. Yeah, for sure. And there's, but they're all like varied. On an individual sense, but then there also are things that you can like tell the jury's interested in like there's a lot of books Do you know Annie Annie? Oh, yeah, Annie from up north Annie.

Bernie: 42:48

Yes. Yeah. Yeah from Oregon. She Something that she said is that like a lot of these books Are books that like lead you somewhere and then there's like a turning point that like changes how you see things and then, you know, it takes it, takes it from there. Like they, they like a twist, the judges like a twist.

Brett Benner: 43:07

Annie's many books.

Bernie: 43:09

That's right. Yeah, Annie's many books.

Brett Benner: 43:10

Yeah, yeah. Well, you guys. This is so fantastic. I so appreciate you kibitzing with me and just talking some about this. I find it and the whole thing increasingly, like the rest of the book community, more interesting every year and more invested every year. And so I think it's, I think it's really fun. And like I said, I love the discourse. I love the intelligent conversations that people are having about this. Just the fact that. People are talking about books at all in this capacity and a world right now where, or at least say in the U S right now where things are being banned and everything else. I just think it's, it's so amazing. Again, I so appreciate you guys taking the time to do this on your side.

Chris: 43:45

We will always talk books. That's what we do on our daily.

Brett Benner: 43:48

All of the books discussed today are available on my bookshop. org page. So check that out. And the link is available in my show notes. Otherwise, I hope you enjoyed this discussion. And if you liked this episode and are liking this podcast, please like and subscribe. And if you have a moment, Maybe leave some feedback as well, because that really and truly helps, and I would really appreciate it. Have a great week everybody.