Shannon Bowring, "Where The Forest Meets the River"

Author Shannon Bowing talks small town life, the nuances in a given relationship, and new friends arriving in the town of Dalton Maine. 

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to behind the stack. I'm Brett Benner and I'll be your host. So this is my first episode. I'm so happy you're all here. I'm so happy you're all listening. And I am so thrilled to have my first episode with Shannon Bowering, who I discovered both of her books. this summer, and. They're just so wonderful. The road to Dalton and where the forest meets the river. So I was so thrilled to have her be my first guest today. A little bit about Shannon. She's been nominated for the pushcart and the best of the net was recently selected and best small fictions. She holds an MFA from university of Southern Maine stone Coast and currently resides in Maine where the force meets the river is her second novel.

0:53

And the book. was also just listed as one of the 28 books to read this fall from Oprah Daily. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it and without any further ado, Welcome Shannon Bowering to Behind the Stack.

Brett Benner: 1:10

I'm just thrilled you're here. you are actually my first guest. So I'm really thrilled that it's you. Cause I, I loved the books so, so much. And, uh, I was saying I was so, I was actually really glad that I hadn't read, uh, Dalton when it first came out because if I read that not known that something else was coming, I would have been fine, but knowing that there was something else coming, I was so great to be able to go right into part two.

1:42

Yeah, that's good. I'm glad that that worked out. Yes,

Brett Benner: 1:46

exactly. Um, how is the weather there today?

1:50

It is very dreary and gray right now. And I apologize. All the clocks, my husband fixes clocks. So we have a lot of, he

Brett Benner: 1:58

does cuckoo clocks.

Shannon Bowring: 2:02

Um, no, we don't have any cuckoo clocks, but we have all the other kinds you could imagine. So at the top of the hour, it gets a little loud.

Brett Benner: 2:11

That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. There. Do you have, so do you have like a wall of clocks?

2:15

Um, we have clocks in every room of the house. So that one you just heard was the one on my bookshelf across the room and there's one in the, in the adjoining room. There's a couple of living room. There's clocks everywhere.

Brett Benner: 2:29

You're never going to be in want of knowing what time it is.

2:33

Exactly. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 2:35

But does it also, they don't go all night though, though, do they? Yeah. They, you know. They do.

2:40

Chimed? They do. We've gotten used to them at this point. It's like living near like a train track. It's like,

Brett Benner: 2:48

it's white noise for you guys.

2:50

Yeah, it is just a constant ticking of, of time.

Brett Benner: 2:55

That's so funny. And you have to warn guests when they come, you're like, just so you know, you have to bring really sturdy ear muffs or ear plugs or like the sound of clocks.

3:05

Yeah. I mean, we, we typically. We'll stop it for extra people, but

Brett Benner: 3:12

yeah, exactly. Guests are coming. Unplug everything. That is hilarious. Okay. So we're going to get into the book in a second, but I have to, I want to go into, I want to go generally a little bit. I want to talk about, uh, just Maine generally, um, cause you are a lifelong Mainer, correct? And I am, I've always been so fascinated with Maine. I mean, My husband and I, two years ago, were there and we ended up making an offer on a house in Kennebunk. And, um, it was this great ship captain's home. And this was the crazy thing about it is it had a, um, a 1300 square foot. Library in the basement and the house came with all the books it was an, it was an elderly couple and he was a, like a bibliophile and collected all these books. He passed away. She didn't want to deal with any of them. And then this guy who's a big designer came and redid the entire house and was selling the house as is. But I remember walking down the first time. And it was larger than a lot of independent bookstores like crazy. And I thought to myself, okay, well, if we come here, I have this thing, but I literally could just end up with like the biggest pango bookshop in the world because we pulled out of it only because it was too early to do this. Like my kids are still in school. I have a daughter who's a senior this year and it was just like living in California, going there. Like it seemed like a lot, but I am so smitten with Maine. I'm, and as I know, so many people are, but I'm really fascinated. Now, if I script this pronunciation, tell me, you grew up in Aristoke?

5:04

Aroostook.

Brett Benner: 5:05

Aroostook. Thank you.

5:07

Aroostook. Yep. Which

Brett Benner: 5:08

is what you're basing Dalton on.

5:10

Uh, I'm basing Dalton on my little hometown in Aroostook. County.

Brett Benner: 5:15

Okay. Yeah, because I looked it up and it's much larger than I anticipated it being, but it's yeah. Yeah. Um, but the small town life, I, I, I find this fascinating as well, but, but here's the one thing I want to ask you about Maine and it comes up, I know in the first book a little bit with one of the characters, this idea about being lifelong Mainers versus people that come into it later

5:40

and

Brett Benner: 5:40

the, yes, from away and explain that to me and the attitude that a lot of Mainers have towards.

5:47

Oh, well, that's a very complicated thing to try to dissect. Um, and I don't want to speak for every Mainer. Obviously we all have slightly different opinions. But the general idea is you're from away if you, if your family wasn't born in Maine generations ago. So like the summer tourists who come up for a few months, they're from away. Um, say that you and your husband had bought your house and you had moved to County Monk, you would be from away.

Brett Benner: 6:19

Sure, sure, sure.

6:20

And no, wherever you are in Maine, it's a little bit different. So I live here on the coast. Now I live in bath, which is, you know,

Brett Benner: 6:29

yeah,

6:29

pretty used to people from away because it's a, it's a more diverse population, but when I was growing up in a rustic, which is the Northern most County of Maine, I Um, and as you mentioned, it's a huge county, it's like the biggest area in Maine. But from when you're living there, people from away are any, it's anyone like who lives south of Bangor, which is about, Oh,

Brett Benner: 6:54

wow.

6:55

So you get like these pockets of Maine where from away is Northern Mainers sometimes see Southern Mainers as an extension of Massachusetts. It's a very nuanced, complicated thing.

Brett Benner: 7:12

Wow.

7:12

Yeah.

Brett Benner: 7:13

So it's open to individual interpretation. Yes, it is.

7:16

There's, there's a lot to unpack.

Brett Benner: 7:19

And also you're so close. You're, you're right on the edge of Canada as well. It's funny because when I was looking it up last night, And I was talking to my husband and he said, Oh yeah, he said that whole Northern tip. He said, the Canadians say that's the dagger that sticks into the heart of Canada.

7:37

Yeah. Um,

Brett Benner: 7:39

yeah, but it's just, it's the whole perception of Maine and how Mainers see outsiders is because you talk about it in this book, Elizabeth Strout speaks about it in her books. So, and I should say that getting to the book, speaking of Elizabeth Strout, those comparisons I know have been made with your books and it's very apt because like her, you've created such a beautiful ensemble of, of characters and they're so well crafted and these characters that you really, really grow to love and care about and feel like they are so familiar. It's just a, it's a really wonderful thing.

8:19

Thank you very much. I. Every time I hear that comparison, it's just like, it's a dream for me because Olive Kittredge was a huge inspiration for The Road to Dalton and I mean, for all of my work, but that's just such a, such an honor to be held in the same light as, as her. So thank you.

Brett Benner: 8:39

No, of course. I also, I love that the books almost feel serialized in a way. and There's not a ton of books like this. Like, you know, I thought of right away, I thought of like Armistead Maupin's Tales of the City did that kind of thing. And also a little bit of, I don't know if you've ever read the Alexander McCall Smith's, the 44 Scotland Street series. I have not read that. Okay, well, it takes, it's similar. It takes a whole group of people in this little, Apartment and 44 Scotland Street. It centers around this one kid named Birdie. But again, it's the same thing. And so it's just such a, just such a heartwarming thing to go back and be with these people and, and, uh, sit with them.

9:20

It's a great genre. so Winesburg, Ohio is very much like that. And that's another huge inspiration. And I don't know if you've read Edward P. Jones lost in the city. It's kind of a collection of stories set in Washington, D. C. in black neighborhoods in Washington, D. C. and that's, it kind of has that same feeling where you're just kind of You're in this one familiar neighborhood or community, and you're just dipping in and out to a bunch of different people's lives. I love, I love to like, imagine in one small place, you have countless stories that you can explore.

Brett Benner: 9:53

Yeah, no, it's great. Okay. So for our listeners and viewers, can you tell a little bit about this latest installment where the forest meets the river?

10:05

Yes. So where the forest meets the river is. I call it a sequel, but really it's a follow up, because it can stand alone or you can read it, you know, as book two or whenever you want. I've kind of created Dalton where you can stop in whenever you want to, and you should feel comfortable there whether you've read the first one or not. But, Where the Forest Meets the River takes place five years after the events 1995, and There's a big sad thing that happens in the first book. I won't say what it is because I don't want to give too many spoilers away for people who haven't read it, but in the follow up we're just kind of touching base with all of the same characters. We're seeing how they've, how they're coping with this sad thing that's happened and you just get a glimpse of all these different people's lives in this small community in Northern Maine. And some more drama happens, there's some secrets, there's, you know, teenagers trying to understand who they are and who they want to be. It's just a slice of life. There's a lot going on.

Brett Benner: 11:12

Yeah. There

11:13

is anywhere. In real life.

Brett Benner: 11:16

Yeah. It's interesting. I, I felt the first book for me was about dealt with a lot with secrets and ultimately loss where this latest installment feels very much about endurance

11:36

and

Brett Benner: 11:36

moving forward.

11:37

Yeah. That's how it felt writing it to writing. The first one was very heavy at times. You know, there's a lot of serious. Topics on mental health and sexuality. And in the second book there, we're still dealing with those things, but there was a feeling when I was writing it, that things were not necessarily lighter, but trending in a more hopeful direction. So it was a little bit easier to write emotionally the second one.

Brett Benner: 12:07

Sure. Yeah. Sure. Well, in a weird way, it's, it's almost like moving through the stages of grief. Do you know what I mean?

12:15

Yes, very much so, yep. And I had that in mind as I was writing it.

Brett Benner: 12:19

And this feels closer to acceptance and, and, and seeing how it kind of plays out with so many of these characters. Can you talk a little bit about, because it's obviously very close to you, kind of the joys and pitfalls of small town life?

12:36

Well, I think the joys are just knowing all your neighbors. Knowing that if you, if you get a flat tire, they're going to come help you out. Just a sense of history there, you know, growing up in the small town where I did the people who taught me, taught my mother. And so it was really nice to have that continuity. Like people knew my family and they understood who we were, but you could, it could be said that the pitfalls are the same things that everybody knows you and your history. So it's very much a, it's interesting that the good things can also be the bad things. But personally, my favorite things about the town were that I grew up, was that sense of people knowing me, but I love the landscape more than anything else. Because Northern Maine is mostly trees, which is true, but I love trees. And so I just grew up surrounded by, my hometown was in this little valley. And there was a river that kind of ran through the one side of town. And if you were up on the hill in the middle of town, you could see in all directions. So you could see. All of the forest, um, the North main woods, you could see all the farming fields that were around the area. And you could see way off to Mount Katahdin, which is the highest. Well, really the only real mountain in Maine, but it's a big one. We love it. So on a clear day, you could see all the way to that. And just that sense of feeling kind of literally on top of the world, because it is the top of Maine. I was just so enamored with the landscape. And so I feel like. Not living there anymore. That's what I miss most about it. Is that sense of openness. I feel like, yeah, I miss that.

Brett Benner: 14:27

Do you go back?

14:28

I go back to visit from time to time. It gets harder as I get older and it's become a very complicated, complex thing with these books because even though I I feel completely at home in Dalton. I don't always feel completely at home in my actual hometown, because for me, Dalton has kind of become its own world. It was originally inspired by my hometown, but now it's kind of its own universe. And so going back and. Understanding that people who live there still see Dalton as their town. It's a little bit weird. It's kind of like straddling a few different worlds at one time.

Brett Benner: 15:13

Is it that you've created, do you think the best version of that town for you?

15:20

I think so. And I think Dalton is not perfect. Dalton has a lot of issues to work out, but it does feel, I don't know. It feels different than my hometown did in a way. And maybe I think part of that is just, you know, the fictionalization of anything

Brett Benner: 15:40

I wanted to talk about. We have a new character that comes in and this, named Vera, who's, who's great, who I'd love for you to talk a little bit about her, but then I have questions that relate to what we're just talking about, but, but tell us a little bit, cause she is new. So tell us a little bit about Vera.

15:55

So Vera Curtis was not in the first book. She's in the second book. She grew up in Dalton and she moved away to the big city of Bangor. Anyone who is even remotely familiar will understand that Bangor is not really a big city, but growing up in the county, it's a destination.

Brett Benner: 16:15

And that's also the home of Stephen King. Yes, that's right. That's what I always knew it for.

16:21

Yep. But so she's moved down there. She's really independent. She works as a nurse practitioner. She's developed this life for herself. beyond her hometown. but right at the beginning of the second book, her aging mother falls and hurts herself. And so she has to go home and, and help take care of her parents who are also new characters. And I absolutely loved writing them because they're just so complacent and content with who they are and what they have. And Vera, you know, spent most of her life kind of feeling sorry for them in a way. Thinking my parents haven't seen the world. I don't know anything, but now she's come back as a 35 year old and she's starting to, to see this town in a new light. And so she's beginning to understand why her parents love this town so much. Because. She missed, you know, like me, she misses the, the topography of the county. She misses that feeling of being surrounded by nature and things are quieter there. And it's a different pace than the big city of Bangor. And so, you know, throughout the book, you're just seeing her. Try to understand what is home. Can my definition of home change as as I change and evolve?

Brett Benner: 17:40

Yeah, so so this is it brought up questions about without this in mind what you just said Do you think it's harder to leave a place you've always been or harder to return to it after so many years? Oh God

17:55

I think that's a, that's a tricky one. I don't know. Both of them have their complications. Think for me personally, it would be harder to, to go back to that hometown to live permanently.

Brett Benner: 18:09

Yeah.

18:10

I feel like, because. I have become so much of a different person than I was when I grew up there that it would be really hard to bring all of my new life into that old life. It would feel a little bit disjointed.

Brett Benner: 18:25

Growing up, did you, did you have a, a sense of wanderlust about you? Were you interested in exploring and seeing what out was out, was out there?

18:35

So that's another tricky one. Because so I was born with two really serious heart conditions. And so I was like the day I was born, I was, I was flown off to the major hospital down in Portland. And my first six years I was undergoing lots of surgeries and procedures, including two open heart surgeries. So for the first six years of my life, I couldn't go anywhere. Like even when I was at home, I had to stay at home. I couldn't go hang out with other kids because of my. immune system. So the way that I, that I satisfied my wanderlust was through books. And so, you know, I had to sit at home, although I actually did like sitting at home and I'm still a homebody to this day, but I didn't know that there was a world beyond my hometown unless I was reading books. It probably wasn't until I was a teenager that I really started feeling like I wanted to see a lot more of the world. Beyond the page, you know, like to actually go to new places and travel and explore. But I've always kind of been torn between my introverted desire to just be at home with my cat and my husband and my more curious nature where I would, I would like to go and see new things and meet new people and experience different ways of living. So I'm always a little bit, a little bit caught in between.

Brett Benner: 20:04

Have, have you gone to Europe? Have you been out of the country?

20:07

Yes, I've been. We did it. We did one of the Rhine River cruises a few years ago. Oh, how was that? Wonderful. There's an age gap between me and my husband. And so it was, I felt like everyone's granddaughter. It was pretty nice. It was lovely, but it wasn't, you know, you kind of just dip in and out of these places. Like you're just another tourist. I've never gone and really like. Spent a significant amount of town time and in Europe, I would love to, but, um, we've traveled around. We've been a few different places, but

Brett Benner: 20:48

with your fella

20:49

with my fella. Yep.

Brett Benner: 20:51

I love that. You call him your fella. I think that's so sweet. And so I've

20:55

always called him the fella.

Brett Benner: 20:57

I love that so much. It's also because he's very tall.

21:01

He's very tall. Uh, he's, he's 6'2 I'm barely 5 feet.

Brett Benner: 21:06

Yeah, I mean, it's adorable seeing the two of you together, because it's just, it's, it's very, very cute. Now you, you've been married for three years, right?

21:15

Yep, we've been married for three years. We've been together almost ten years.

Brett Benner: 21:19

Okay, okay. How much do you find of your own personal relationship bleeds at points into your characters?

21:26

Um, definitely the most obvious one is in the first book. We have a character named Alice who's a writer who is married to an older fella. And I understand that people think that I'm Alice. I don't see myself as Alice, but there's a lot of similarities there. But beyond that, I feel like a lot of my husband's personality comes through in Nate Thoreau, who's just

Brett Benner: 21:50

a

21:51

thoroughly, he's just such a decent, kind, tall man. And so I feel like.

Brett Benner: 21:58

He's like a moral compass of the book.

22:00

Yeah, he is. That's what it feels like. So I feel like, you know, in those, In those parts, my life is trickled onto the page.

Brett Benner: 22:11

I love that. One of the most interesting relationships that exists in the book are, is, and I know you don't know, probably what I'm going to say is between Trudy and Bev. I love Trudy. So much. And I really want to see a crossover because I feel like Trudy and Olive Kittredge would be best friends.

22:30

Oh my God. Or it would be the opposite and they couldn't stand each other. Yes. Which would be

Brett Benner: 22:34

like,

22:35

yeah,

Brett Benner: 22:36

yeah. Either way. Or they, or it would just be, you know, the clash of the Titans kind of thing. These two. And, but I do, like I was reading it, I was like, Oh my God, she and Olive Kittredge together would be perfect.

22:47

fireworks. Yeah, it would be.

Brett Benner: 22:52

But it's such an interesting relationship. And I don't think this is spoilers because it comes out right in the beginning of the first book, which is they're both they're married. Both women are married, but but are having this kind of Long going, um, relationship with each other. So talk a little bit about that, how you came up with this work. What made you think of this also, because I'm so interested in terms of, um, you know, there's so much talk in the book about there is the issues of sexuality that comes up with, there's another character who is struggling with his sexuality. Um, And I'm so curious in terms of the, um, views in terms of how it's perceived and how people would perceive that. Cause it seems like, oh, you, we can't talk about this.

23:38

Yeah. So I'm going to start with that and then I'll work my way back to sure.

Brett Benner: 23:43

Yeah.

23:43

So I don't know how things have changed now that we're in a more, you know, modern day and age, but when I was growing up in the County, it was the nineties. And you did not talk about sexuality of any sort, be it straight, gay, anything. Um, I

Brett Benner: 24:03

thought that was just being a wasp in my family.

24:05

Yeah. But I mean, I think part of it is a new England mentality. You know, we kind of are famous for not necessarily talking about everything, but I think part of it is because we're sick is so isolated. It's very much its own world. It's very working class that it just didn't. I don't know, there's just like this culture of silence up there, where you might know a per you might know your neighbor is Gay, but you're not going to talk about it. Um, I also know that there were people growing up in the decades before me who were really mistreated because people knew they were gay. Um, so I just wanted to explore in, through fiction, how it would be for these two women, Bev and Trudy, to be living in an environment like that, where on one hand you have a super supportive community and everyone knows And on the other hand, you have These really complex issues that no one talks about. And originally, like at the very beginning, Bev and Trudy were just good friends, and I thought maybe one of them might have feelings for the other, but that didn't feel right. But then Trudy and Bev, but Trudy to a much louder degree started telling me like Bev is my lady, like you got to just write it, you just, just like write us as a couple. And it just felt so natural that they would be more than friends. And they're just soulmates on this level that goes even beyond like an issue of sexuality. They're just each other. Um, I just love every scene with them together is just, even if they're going through a tough time, it's so joyful to write a scene with them together. You know, I loved the scene in the first book where they're, They're at the bar and they're kind of like saying F you to the town. And they're just, they're finally dancing together in front of everybody. And it was just, I just, they're, they're the best. They're amazing. I love them so much. I'm so glad that they. That I explored that little voice, that I listened to Trudi, and I, and I wrote into their relationship.

Brett Benner: 26:31

I am too. But I'm also, I'm so, I'm so fascinated at the, the quartet. Meaning the relationships with their husbands. Yes. Yeah. And, and. And that really digs much deeper in, in this book and it all makes sense. It really does. And that's what I find it, it, it doesn't make anything easy, but it smacks very true to real life, which is look at there are different levels and different points on a curve of relationships.

27:10

Definitely. So to speak to that in the second book. And it's not really a spoiler. In the second book, Trudy's husband, Richard has a heart attack. And so she has to divert a lot of her attention to caring for him. And that kind of calls into question, not only her relationship with Bev. She doesn't have as much time to spend with her, but her relationship with Richard. And in the first book, I think you got glimpses of the fact that Richard and Trudy still really care for each other, but it's definitely strained. In the second book, I feel like they come to, I mean, I know they come to a place of acceptance and it was really nice to see that, that Richard in, with all of his flaws, and he does have flaws, even though he's a great character, he accepts Trudy for who she is. And they come to a point where they can kind of talk about it. Whereas Bev is married to a good man as well, but he is much more part of that culture of not talking about anything. But they, but Bev and Bill also love each other in their own way, you know, they're. They're firm in their parenting of Nate and now that they're grandparents, you know, so there are different levels of different relationships. It's not always romantic. It's not always true love, but it can be a really It can still be a healthy ish relationship.

Brett Benner: 28:36

Yeah.

28:37

It can still work somehow.

Brett Benner: 28:40

Well, and I've known people like this. Yeah. I, for, for whatever reason, you know? And, uh, so they're out there. They exist. Yeah. And, and it's not always for anyone to understand it. Right. Except for the two people who are actually in it, you know? Exactly.

28:58

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Brett Benner: 29:00

But it's nice to see the nuances play out, and it's nice to see that, okay, this isn't just this isn't just one thing,

29:09

right? Nothing is just one thing. There's always layers and complexities.

Brett Benner: 29:14

Now, have you heard, I'm sure so many people have in town have read this, how is their reaction to these characters?

29:21

Everyone I've talked to love Beb and Trudy. And it seems like everyone kind of identifies with what you're talking about, that they're, they're understanding that these two marriages only have to make sense to the people who live in them.

Brett Benner: 29:39

Sure.

29:39

So I've had a very positive reaction to Beb and Trudy. Which has been so heartwarming and so it makes me feel like not, not everything is hopeless.

Brett Benner: 29:54

Yeah. No, I hear you. I also think you're basing a relationship. What you're focusing on is their connectedness and their love for each other. This is not like you're writing some spicy sapphic. No,

30:09

definitely. It's

Brett Benner: 30:10

really. And, and I think that, resonates. And can resonate more with people because they understand how deep rooted this really is

30:19

exactly. It's just like, I think any solid relationship is grounded in friendship and just, you have to love being together and they love being together, whether it's cataloging books at the library or having a couple cocktails at the bar. They just, they just genuinely love each other's company.

Brett Benner: 30:43

I just had a side note question, completely separate. Annette, who was Bridget's mom, from the first book, and, and she, comes to the forefront a little bit more in this book. And one of the things she does is, spends a lot of time on the home shopping network, which the only time I've ever seen this addressed anywhere is in reality bites with Winona Ryder. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie. Have you ever seen it? No. Okay. Winona Ryder is literally just like placid in front of a television and just ordering stuff. Like, and you just see like the, the, the, the. Reflection from the television era. Have you ever done this? Have you ever gotten anything from the home shopping network?

31:22

No, but I grew up in that era where like the commercial, those sorts of commercials were always on TV. Like, what was his name? Billy Mays.

Brett Benner: 31:33

Yeah. Yeah. Those

31:33

were big in like the late nineties, early 2000. And so I've watched a lot of TV in my life. I'm not ashamed to say it. And so I was aware that these things existed. And. I just thought, what would it be like if someone actually ordered all those things and on a deeper level, why would somebody be compelled to order all of those things?

Brett Benner: 31:59

And in

31:59

the next case, that's really, really sad. You know, she's not coping with her grief and, you know, as a way to deal with it, she's really sad. compulsively shopping and compulsively drinking. And so it was, on the surface, it sounds kind of funny, like all these products you can buy from TV, but really it's very sad what's happening to this character.

Brett Benner: 32:23

I laughed cause I feel like had I had a credit card and was old enough at the time, I probably would have fallen into that trap. Cause I am certainly somebody who like during lockdown, I was the first person to like jump on a Kickstarter campaign or, Like Instagram, I'll always be like, something will come up, you know, and I'll be like, well, I just, you know, I'll just try that out. Like my husband's always like, you are the king of the single use appliance. Stop ordering. Do you know what I mean? Cause I'm like, but this will compact your garbage and makes, you know, fertilizer for the roses.

32:57

Yes.

Brett Benner: 33:01

All right. So when you started this, did you always intend for it to go on or were you literally just writing a book and you're like, I have more to say? Yeah.

33:09

I always knew it was, it was going to be bigger than the first book. You know, in the first book, there's certainly a lot of things left unresolved at the end. So the second book kind of, it doesn't, there's still not a lot of resolution in this. I just, I've always known that Dalton, as much as I needed to leave my hometown, I still can't stop writing about it. Even though I'm 35, I feel like I got out when I was 19 and I'm still there. And I feel like I'll always be there. And so this is a good time to say I have sold the third book. Um, I don't want to give the title away just yet until it's out on publishers marketplace, cause it's just a little, but in my mind, that trilogy wraps up this. However, I will always leave the door open to go back into Dalton, maybe in a different time period, whether that's more modern or maybe, you know, back in the day. I just feel like there's As we had mentioned earlier, there's endless stories in this tiny little town. And lots of times, the things I'm most excited to explore a little deeper is I'll just write a name in a scene, like as a secondary character, like, Oh, there's Helen McGreevy driving her Pinto around town. And I'll, and I'll just wonder, what's her story? Like, what could I do with that? And so I feel like I've kind of, I've set myself up for endless possibilities, which is. Wonderful, but also a little overwhelming because I don't know how to choose one lane and stay in it. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 34:58

Well, maybe you're a freeway.

35:00

There you go.

Brett Benner: 35:02

Yeah. Do you, do you view yourself as an old soul?

35:07

Oh yeah. I am an old lady through and through. I might be 35, well almost 35, but I feel like 87. And part of that is no doubt the trauma that I went through as a little kid. Cause like from the time I understood anything, I knew that like I could die at any second. That's a pretty heavy thing for a six year old.

Brett Benner: 35:31

Of course.

35:32

But I've always just felt. Much more connected to older people. Hence my husband, who's like 25 years older than me. I've always liked, he

Brett Benner: 35:44

and I are like the same age. Yeah.

35:46

Yeah. I've always liked older music. Not older,

Brett Benner: 35:48

just a little more seasoned.

35:50

Exactly. I don't know. I've just always felt. Not in touch with my actual age group or generation. I feel like I've, I feel very, very seasoned.

Brett Benner: 36:05

Well, no. And I asked that question primarily because, um, in particular your seasoned characters are so well wrought and they're so well thought out and the way They relate to each other. It's like both you and Claire Lombardo are roughly the same age. I think you're exactly the same age. And I was shocked talking to Claire that she was also as young as she was writing these characters who were so much older and dealing with these things. So when I read this, like the first time I saw your photo, I was like, Oh, she's a child.

36:45

Yeah. I also, I look. Younger than my age, which is, which is, which is

Brett Benner: 36:51

wonderful and take it, but no, but you, you, there's such a maturity about these people that you're writing about. And it's, it's really impressive.

37:03

I appreciate that. Part of it was growing up in that small town. You kind of. I was around older people all the time. So like when my mom would go visit her friend and have coffee, I went along with her. So I was kind of able to eavesdrop into these adult conversations and, and understand adults in a way that I didn't always understand people, my own age, which was an An interesting experience. I would say I

Brett Benner: 37:32

think a lot of people feel that. I mean, I grew up the same way with I've and my husband is is seven years older than I am. So I've always generated to older people as well.

37:43

Yeah,

Brett Benner: 37:44

I find as I've gotten older. I enjoy. Young people. I enjoy their, I enjoy the young people, but it's the exuberance. It's youth. It's looking at things differently. Oh, their energy. Look at them go. Exactly. Right. Wait, how do I forward this email? But, uh, But no, I, so I totally get that. Yeah, I understand. I have, I want to read this. I'm being conscious of the time and I know we're about to close out, but I want to read a quote from your book that comes towards the end and just want your thoughts on it, which is why go somewhere else when everything you need is right here.

38:31

Yeah. So that is from Vera and her parents because her parents have said that. And we talked about them a little bit earlier that they're just. They're so content in this small little world that they've created for themselves. And I think that there's something to be said for that. You know, as much as I, I feel like I wouldn't want to go live in my hometown again. I do feel like where I live now, I've created that own little content world for myself. And I feel like sometimes we put too much emphasis on imagining what else we could have if we went somewhere else. I think that there's something to be said for creating a cozy little life full of simple things and just treasuring it. So I feel like when that quote kind of came up once and then again, I felt like that was very, evocative of a lot of the, a lot of characters probably feel the same way about Dalton.

Brett Benner: 39:30

Yeah. And the readers too.

39:32

Yeah.

Brett Benner: 39:34

Well, this was just delightful. You are just a delight. so much. Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. I'm so excited for you. Everyone that's, I know that's read it so far as I Absolutely loved it. And, uh, congratulations on the Oprah. Oh

39:49

my God.

Brett Benner: 39:52

That is no, it's so exciting. That's incredible. Everybody go out and get the book it's out today, where the forest meets the river you can also get the first book, the road to Dalton. If you haven't read that, but you, again, like she said, you don't need to read the first to read the second, but it certainly does enrich the experience. thank you so much again to Shannon. You were just wonderful. And thank you all for listening. If you like this please like, and subscribe leave a review. If you can. And, have a great day where ever you are and I will talk to you also.